FARK.com: (4009955) Old and busted and busted and busted and busted: Creationists say evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. New hotness: Physicist does the math and shows that they were only off by a factor of a trillion

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(Science Blogs)		Old and busted and busted and busted and busted: Creationists say evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. New hotness: Physicist does the math and shows that they were only off by a factor of a trillion (scienceblogs.com)		358
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10111 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 11 Nov 2008 at 12:29 PM (14 years ago) | Favorite | share:

358 Comments (+0 »)

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thamike

2008-11-11 8:45:51 AM

[image from myclassiclyrics.com too old to be available]

"Yeah, but that's just like...your theory, man."

twobux

2008-11-11 9:04:58 AM

Sooo, now we know where we came from?

Running a-puck

2008-11-11 9:06:53 AM

twobux: Sooo, now we know where we came from?

What's that got to do with evolution?

Rev. Skarekroe

2008-11-11 9:09:11 AM

Thank the great Atheismo!

Sirjohnfalstaff

2008-11-11 9:09:17 AM

I was told there would be no math.

Talon

2008-11-11 9:12:06 AM

twobux: Sooo, now we know where we came from?

Or as the author of this article puts it... you meant to say, "I find it hard to believe that evolution can lead to organisms becoming more complex over time."

fatimcgee

2008-11-11 9:15:21 AM

[image from myclassiclyrics.com too old to be available]

"The Lord says, right here...I was suppose to be the breakout star from Growing Pains, not Leo! I should have been the one drawing a fat, naked Kate Winslet and then plowing her in a car three scenes later. That was supposed to BE ME!!!"

TheYeti

2008-11-11 9:17:07 AM

[image from thoughtfulrepublican.com too old to be available]

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude

2008-11-11 9:18:53 AM

Well written post by the author.

thamike: "Yeah, but that's just like...your theory, man."

I hope that man dies in a fire. Saw one of his interviews. Completely batshiat crazy.

Sybarite

2008-11-11 9:19:42 AM

That may be the most polite hotlink pwnage I've ever seen.

Bevets

2008-11-11 9:19:49 AM

Styer even anticipates the standard creationist response to this sort of thing:

A creationist confronted with the estimates in this article might respond by saying, "an open system and an adequate outside source of energy are necessary but not sufficient conditions for the complexity, structure, and organization of a system to increase.
I know from personal experience that this is precisely how creationists respond. And Styer serves up the obvious and correct reply:

He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. ~ John Stuart Mill

I am SHOCKED that the author has not requested a direct response for the article.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude

2008-11-11 9:19:54 AM

TheYeti

OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNED!

DamnYankees

2008-11-11 9:20:24 AM

But one trillion in so small compared to the vastness of god.

thamike

2008-11-11 9:21:01 AM

TheYeti -- That must be embarrassing. From the Thoughtful Republican, no less.

SouthernManDunWrong

2008-11-11 9:22:22 AM

Yeah, the whole idea of matter and energy spontaneously generating, assimilating doesn't have a thing to do with thermodynamics. Still waiting for an evo to tell me where the matter and energy that formed the goo from whence we were derived originated. Comets spattering the planet? Great, where did they come from? By products of the Big Bang? Great, where did the matter and energy that formed the Big Bang come from?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Larry Mahnken

2008-11-11 9:24:14 AM

/Obligatory

kronicfeld

2008-11-11 9:24:37 AM

SouthernManDunWrong: Yeah, the whole idea of matter and energy spontaneously generating, assimilating doesn't have a thing to do with thermodynamics. Still waiting for an evo to tell me where the matter and energy that formed the goo from whence we were derived originated. Comets spattering the planet? Great, where did they come from? By products of the Big Bang? Great, where did the matter and energy that formed the Big Bang come from?

Where did the "god" that created everything come from? Anyone?

thamike

2008-11-11 9:24:49 AM

Bevets: He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. ~ John Stuart Mill

"I choose, by preference the cases which are least favourable to me - In which the argument against freedom of opinion, both on truth and that of utility, is considered the strongest. Let the opinions impugned be the belief of God and in a future state, or any of the commonly received doctrines of morality... But I must be permitted to observe that it is not the feeling sure of a doctrine (be it what it may) which I call an assumption of infallibility. It is the undertaking to decide that question for others, without allowing them to hear what can be said on the contrary side. And I denounce and reprobate this pretension not the less if I put forth on the side of my most solemn convictions. However positive anyone's persuasion may be, not only of the faculty but of the pernicious consequences, but (to adopt expressions which I altogether condemn) the immorality and impiety of opinion. - yet if, in pursuance of that private judgement, though backed by the public judgement of his country or contemporaries, he prevents the opinion from being heard in its defence, he assumes infallibility. And so far from the assumption being less objectionable or less dangerous because the opinion is called immoral or impious, this is the case of all others in which is most fatal."

--John Stuart Mill

S'funny when you don't take him out of context, innit?

Abstruse

2008-11-11 9:25:54 AM

Don't know. Not enough information in at this time to make a hypothesis. And anyone who says otherwise is full of shiat, trying to sell you something, or both.

RoxtarRyan

2008-11-11 9:26:03 AM

Bevets: He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. ~ John Stuart Mill

Oh, the irony that you would quote THAT!

darkyn

2008-11-11 9:26:10 AM

Sirjohnfalstaff: I was told there would be no math.

There is always math.

Senescent Dawn

2008-11-11 9:26:33 AM

Right, I forgot that in the scientific method, you can't just form a hypothesis to deal with one issue. You need to keep going back and asking "why" until you're dealing with unprovable nonsense.

thamike

2008-11-11 9:28:54 AM

Senescent Dawn: You need to keep going back and asking "why" until you're dealing with unprovable nonsense.

My two year old cousin does that. It gets out of hand. After awhile I just start making up things. Sort of says it all, really.

I_Love_Verdi

2008-11-11 9:35:08 AM

I've dealt with this argument before (minus the math, which is really only necessary for maximum pwnage), this is a great explanation of why it is unsound.

TheYeti

2008-11-11 9:37:46 AM

Hahahaha!

Wow, that was FAST.

gumpy

2008-11-11 9:38:25 AM

kronicfeld: SouthernManDunWrong: Yeah, the whole idea of matter and energy spontaneously generating, assimilating doesn't have a thing to do with thermodynamics. Still waiting for an evo to tell me where the matter and energy that formed the goo from whence we were derived originated. Comets spattering the planet? Great, where did they come from? By products of the Big Bang? Great, where did the matter and energy that formed the Big Bang come from?

Where did the "god" that created everything come from? Anyone?

Ah, after that it is gods all the way down

thamike

2008-11-11 9:40:15 AM

kronicfeld: Where did the "god" that created everything come from? Anyone?

La Jolla.

DamnYankees

2008-11-11 9:41:01 AM

Why does energy or matter even need to have been created? It just exists.

gumpy

2008-11-11 9:48:14 AM

DamnYankees: SouthernManDunWrong: Yeah, the whole idea of matter and energy spontaneously generating, assimilating doesn't have a thing to do with thermodynamics. Still waiting for an evo to tell me where the matter and energy that formed the goo from whence we were derived originated. Comets spattering the planet? Great, where did they come from? By products of the Big Bang? Great, where did the matter and energy that formed the Big Bang come from?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Why does energy or matter even need to have been created? It just exists.

Because we have human brains that's why.

We know we are born, we know we die. We grow things, we eat them. Everything connected with us has a finite span. As a result infinity is something our brains were never designed to comprehend.

Couple that with our habit personifying things we don't understand and boom you got yourself Mother Nature, God etc...

Oh and Fairies, you mustn't forget the Fairies.

KyngNothing

2008-11-11 9:48:50 AM

Coatlique was first impregnated by an obsidian knife and gave birth to Coyolxanuhqui, goddess of the moon, and to a group of male offspring, who became the stars. Then one day Coatlique found a ball of feathers, which she tucked into her bosom. When she looked for it later, it was gone, at which time she realized that she was again pregnant. Her children, the moon and stars did not believe her story. Ashamed of their mother, they resolved to kill her. A goddess could only give birth once, to the original litter of divinity and no more. During the time that they were plotting her demise, Coatlique gave birth to the fiery god of war, Huitzilopochtli. With the help of a fire serpent, he destroyed his brothers and sister, murdering them in a rage. He beheaded Coyolxauhqui and threw her body into a deep gorge in a mountain, where it lies dismembered forever. The natural cosmos of the Indians was born of catastrophe. The heavens literally crumbled to pieces. The earth mother fell and was fertilized, while her children were torn apart by fratricide and then scattered and disjointed throughout the universe.

Donald_McRonald

2008-11-11 9:52:36 AM

Bevets: Styer even anticipates the standard creationist response to this sort of thing:

A creationist confronted with the estimates in this article might respond by saying, "an open system and an adequate outside source of energy are necessary but not sufficient conditions for the complexity, structure, and organization of a system to increase.
I know from personal experience that this is precisely how creationists respond. And Styer serves up the obvious and correct reply:

He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. ~ John Stuart Mill

I am SHOCKED that the author has not requested a direct response for the article.

You're a fat little nothing and you've changed zero minds in your pathetic little e-existence.

thamike

2008-11-11 9:52:56 AM

DamnYankees: Why does energy or matter even need to have been created? It just exists.

I still want to know what the f*ck this clown thinks an "evo" is. Guess what? The people who read, observe, and study aren't just an opposing cult to insufferable, superstitious ignoramuses who are terrified to face their own mortality.

mercurial

2008-11-11 9:55:15 AM

Evolution =/= a theory about the origins of life. Of course, most creationists can't wrap their simple minds around this concept.

JoJoTheIdiotMonkeyBoy

2008-11-11 9:57:19 AM

KyngNothing: Coatlique was first impregnated by an obsidian knife and gave birth to Coyolxanuhqui, goddess of the moon, and to a group of male offspring, who became the stars. Then one day Coatlique found a ball of feathers, which she tucked into her bosom. When she looked for it later, it was gone, at which time she realized that she was again pregnant. Her children, the moon and stars did not believe her story. Ashamed of their mother, they resolved to kill her. A goddess could only give birth once, to the original litter of divinity and no more. During the time that they were plotting her demise, Coatlique gave birth to the fiery god of war, Huitzilopochtli. With the help of a fire serpent, he destroyed his brothers and sister, murdering them in a rage. He beheaded Coyolxauhqui and threw her body into a deep gorge in a mountain, where it lies dismembered forever. The natural cosmos of the Indians was born of catastrophe. The heavens literally crumbled to pieces. The earth mother fell and was fertilized, while her children were torn apart by fratricide and then scattered and disjointed throughout the universe.

I was told there'd be no bullshiat.

Mugato

2008-11-11 9:58:30 AM

Creationists, PLEASE stay away from trying use science in your argument in any way. You're always going to end up looking like idiots. Just say, "I believe this goofy shiat because I have faith" and people will leave you alone.

gumpy

2008-11-11 9:58:42 AM

mercurial: SouthernManDunWrong: Yeah, the whole idea of matter and energy spontaneously generating, assimilating doesn't have a thing to do with thermodynamics. Still waiting for an evo to tell me where the matter and energy that formed the goo from whence we were derived originated. Comets spattering the planet? Great, where did they come from? By products of the Big Bang? Great, where did the matter and energy that formed the Big Bang come from?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Evolution =/= a theory about the origins of life. Of course, most creationists can't wrap their simple minds around this concept.

THIS

Evolution has chuff all to do with Big Bang Theory.

CravenMorehead

2008-11-11 10:01:33 AM

It's cute when creationists try to "use" science to disprove a scientific fact.

Abstruse

2008-11-11 10:01:33 AM

Mugato: Creationists, PLEASE stay away from trying use science in your argument in any way. You're always going to end up looking like idiots. Just say, "I believe this goofy shiat because I have faith" and people will leave you alone.

Not true. Amend that to say "I believe this goofy shiat because I have faith, but I don't expect you to believe it nor do I wish to force my opinions on you by proselytizing nor on your children by forcing them into science classrooms. I simply wish to go to chuch and believe whatever I wish to believe while leaving you to believe whatever you wish to believe based upon whatever you wish to believe."

My relationship with religion is basically "Don't fark with me, I won't fark with you". As long as you follow the Third Commandment (from the Book of Carlin, "Keep thy religion to thyself"), I don't give a damn.

Abstruse

2008-11-11 10:02:08 AM

CravenMorehead: It's cute when creationists try to "use" science to disprove a scientific fact.

They "use" science the way a necrophiliac uses a corpse.

kronicfeld

2008-11-11 10:04:56 AM

You lunatic heathen douche, the knife was ONYX. Now our countrymen are going to have to bomb each other for a couple hundred years.

FarkinOgre

2008-11-11 10:04:58 AM

There was the Miller/Urey Experiment back in the 1950's that showed how small amounts of energy can create amino acids in the right conditions (those conditions found on the early Earth). That was a pretty significant finding regarding the origins of life.

If you're pondering the origins of matter, that's a different question all together and has nothing to do with the argument about the origins of life.

Mugato

2008-11-11 10:06:58 AM

kronicfeld: You lunatic heathen douche, the knife was ONYX. Now our countrymen are going to have to bomb each other for a couple hundred years

We Obsidians don't take kindly to Onyxians around here.

Bevets

2008-11-11 10:07:57 AM

I am SHOCKED that the author has not requested a direct response for the article.

Donald_McRonald:

You're a fat little nothing and you've changed zero minds in your pathetic little e-existence.

You know you're over the target when you start getting flak. ~ Ben Stein

mercurial:

Evolution =/= a theory about the origins of life. Of course, most creationists can't wrap their simple minds around this concept.

The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. There is no third position. For this reason many scientists a century ago chose to regard the belief in spontaneous generation as a "philosophical necessity." It is a symptom of the philosophical poverty of our time that this necessity is no longer appreciated. Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing. ~ George Wald

thamike

2008-11-11 10:10:25 AM

Mugato: We Obsidians don't take kindly to Onyxians around here.

SLAM! duh-duhh-duh, duh-duhh-duh, LET THE BOYZ B BOYZ!

Senescent Dawn

2008-11-11 10:10:41 AM

Bevets:

Hey, so I know that this won't hit home or anything, but have you ever actually posted a response in your own words before? Are you just a semiautonomous voicebox for people more articulate than yourself?

darkyn

2008-11-11 10:11:28 AM

kronicfeld: You lunatic heathen douche, the knife was ONYX. Now our countrymen are going to have to bomb each other for a couple hundred years.

And thus the Fark Wars were born, destined to be carried to the stars centuries hence, their cause and purpose writ large across the galaxy in human blood.

mercurial

2008-11-11 10:12:43 AM

Bevets: You know you're over the target when you start getting flak. ~ Ben Stein

Yeah, Ben Stein, the guy who created a movie about "discrimination" against creationists in academia. Just because something doesn't mean the criteria for inclusion doesn't mean it's discrimination, folks. The Darwin-Nazi connection was the real icing on the cake, too.

Bevets: The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. There is no third position. For this reason many scientists a century ago chose to regard the belief in spontaneous generation as a "philosophical necessity." It is a symptom of the philosophical poverty of our time that this necessity is no longer appreciated. Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing. ~ George Wald

People tend to explain things away with a god when they're ignorant.

King Something

2008-11-11 10:12:43 AM

Has anyone yet mentioned that the Big Bang, abiogenesis and evolution are three completely different things?

For those who don't know -

Big Bang = the first few nanoseconds of the universe in its current form.
Abiogenesis = how the first organic chemicals and living organisms were formed, when there were previously none.
Evolution = how living organisms change over time. Think of how genetically different you are from your parents, them from their parents and so on, extrapolate for a few million generations, and apply to species other than humans.

R.A.Danny

2008-11-11 10:12:46 AM

Why the hell would someone lie to support their faith? Seriously, say it is bigger than math and science and all that, I would understand doubting science based on faith (although I would disagree), but an out and out lie tells me that someone neither believes, nor do they practice within their faith.

gumpy

2008-11-11 10:12:55 AM

Abstruse: Mugato: Creationists, PLEASE stay away from trying use science in your argument in any way. You're always going to end up looking like idiots. Just say, "I believe this goofy shiat because I have faith" and people will leave you alone.

Not true. Amend that to say "I believe this goofy shiat because I have faith, but I don't expect you to believe it nor do I wish to force my opinions on you by proselytizing nor on your children by forcing them into science classrooms. I simply wish to go to chuch and believe whatever I wish to believe while leaving you to believe whatever you wish to believe based upon whatever you wish to believe."

My relationship with religion is basically "Don't fark with me, I won't fark with you". As long as you follow the Third Commandment (from the Book of Carlin, "Keep thy religion to thyself"), I don't give a damn.

I call bullshiat.

So you would rather your children didn't have science lessons? Questions like:

1) What is gravity?
2) Is the earth flat?
3) How does electricity work?
4) How has the peppered moth changed colour as a direct result of the industrial revolution and now started to change back?

Should all be answered, shut the fark up, God dit it and thats all you need to know.

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