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(Yahoo)   Thomas Friedman has "fading green bonafides." Translation: He had the audacity to notice that coal is somewhat less dangerous than antimatter   (news.yahoo.com) divider line
    More: Stupid  
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1765 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 13 May 2008 at 3:34 PM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



26 Comments     (+0 »)
 
2008-05-13 3:46:11 PM  
Friedman's the douglas feith of journalists -- in the infamous words of general franks, the "dumbest farking guy on the planet."

Also, Friedman was one of the loudest cheerleaders advocating war with Iraq.
 
2008-05-13 3:55:04 PM  
absoluteparanoia: If Friedman had Boobies, more people might listen to him.

have you seen pictures of him? its pretty clear he has a small pair.
 
2008-05-13 4:02:23 PM  
The next six months will be critical to reinforcing the widely held belief that Friedman should die in a fire. Or Iraq.
 
2008-05-13 4:05:35 PM  
FTA: Using his New York Times bully pulpit column, Friedman had the audacity to tour a strip mine in Montana last year, and then declare that our "green" future rested on the mirage of "clean coal,"

There is no such thing as clean coal.

The coal mining process is very destructive to the environment, regardless if it is deep mining or strip mining. The mining process releases various heavy and radioactive metals that are found in coal seams. Iron sulfide in the seams forms sulfuric acid when exposed to precipitation. Methane gas, a known greenhouse gas, is also released. Much of this escapes from coal slag that is dumped near the mine.

As for burning it, well, all of those heavy metals and radioactive metals are expelled into the atmosphere. Much of that can be reduced by using scrubbers and/or by performing a "liquid coal" extraction prior to use, but then you still need to dispose of it afterwards. Not to mention that the conversion to liquid coal is nasty in its own regard.


FTA: Friedman should know better. He should have learned his lesson as a one-time cheerleader of ethanol

Ethanol alcohol fuel is fine as long as you get it from proper sources, such as Miscanthus ryegrass and sugar cane. It is even better when extracted from cellulose such agriculture plant waste.

It fails as a green source when you use a crop such as corn. Of course, ethanol wouldn't be profitable from a low sugar yield crop like corn were it not for subsidies. So, blame Washington and the corn lobby for that farkup.
 
2008-05-13 4:06:20 PM  
FTFA: republic of Google

That tells me that the author of this article is a douchebag of the first order.

/DNFRTFA
//"clean" coal? Let me file that with "little shrimp" and "military intelligence".
 
2008-05-13 4:12:50 PM  
For those of you, like me, who have often during the last six years daydreamed about hitting Tom Friedman with a pie, here ya go (new window)
 
2008-05-13 4:19:47 PM  
Dinjiin: Ethanol alcohol fuel is fine as long as you get it from proper sources, such as Miscanthus ryegrass and sugar cane.

The issue there is that people are now clear cutting forests to make room for ethanol crops- and these crops don't have the same CO2 sequestering power of the forests they're replacing- making them not carbon neutral, as we were promised.

Ethanol is great in concept, but with finite and highly strained arable land it's not a replacement for fossil fuels- just a supplement.
 
2008-05-13 4:37:04 PM  
He's a suitor.
 
2008-05-13 4:55:00 PM  
t3knomanser: The issue there is that people are now clear cutting forests to make room for ethanol crops

Right, Brazil has had some problems with this.

However, in the United States, millions of acres of arid land can be converted into farmland for crops such as ryegrass. The only limitation is water, which can be somewhat offset through the use of reclaimed water (non-edible crop), as well as the continuation of water reclamation projects from the depression era.
 
2008-05-13 5:04:57 PM  
Merry Sunshine: He's a suitor.

Bona fide.
 
2008-05-13 5:10:59 PM  
Dinjiin: There is no such thing as clean coal.

First of all "clean coal" is used to describe a process, not some magical quality of the coal itself. Yes, there are types of coal that are chemically cleaner (usually defined by less sulfur) and that can be extracted in a somewhat environmentally responsible manner but everyone understands that burning coal comes with an environmental cost. Suggesting otherwise is just propping up a strawman.

Right now, there are exactly zero methods of generating electricity or extracting any natural resource that is without varying environmental consequences. We as a society generally place the benifits of coal over the resulting environmental consequences.

Oh, and I agree completely with your point about ethanol.
 
2008-05-13 5:22:12 PM  
Dinjiin: However, in the United States, millions of acres of arid land can be converted into farmland for crops such as ryegrass. The only limitation is water, which can be somewhat offset through the use of reclaimed water (non-edible crop), as well as the continuation of water reclamation projects from the depression era.

Are you talking about the Western part of the Unitid States? Turning bare land into farmland is very problematic here. Water is not a big deal but is a HUGE deal. Finding and obtaining water rights for sufficient water will not be easy. You also have to deal with the environmental lawsuits stemming from a loss of wildlife habitat. I would look more to algae and simmilar technologies before looking at converting arid, bare land into farmland.
 
2008-05-13 5:23:53 PM  
Dinjiin: There is no such thing as clean coal.

True dat. All we need to do is ramp up construction of nuclear power plants until we've replaced all the coal plants.
 
2008-05-13 5:54:26 PM  
TFA: Friedman's truly green counterparts in the rest of the world -- from Germany to Spain to Israel to the republic of Google -- are seizing the moment to pursue the daily breakthroughs in renewable energy sources

Daily breakthroughs? What was today's? Or yesterday's? The author is either delusional, or merely stupid. Coal has at least three advantages:

1) It's there. Large scale renewable sources? Not so much.
2) It's readily available. Coal is much easier to extract than oil.
3) It's ours. Domestic energy sources are better than imported oil.

People seem to forget that there is no single solution to the problem of energy. Nuclear is a good option, but new plants would not be on line for years. The author's beloved "renewable" sources don't exist on anything near the scale needed to replace fossil fuels. What do we do until we have those available? Use what we have now.
 
2008-05-13 6:03:48 PM  
HeadLever: Are you talking about the Western part of the Unitid States?

Yes.


HeadLever: Turning bare land into farmland is very problematic here. Water is not a big deal but is a HUGE deal. Finding and obtaining water rights for sufficient water will not be easy.

Correct. Which is why you would need the involvement of the Bureau of Reclamation.

The Columbia Basin Project is only partially complete. Washington state officials have been lobbying the federal government to complete the project for some time. Upon completion, irrigated land in eastern Washington should double from 0.67 million to 1.1 million acres.

There has also been talk about diverting water from the Mississippi river basin into the eastern American desert (west Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, etc...). Such a plan would including pumping during the wet season, as well as building huge reservoirs for the dry season.

Is it a feasible task? Maybe not.


HeadLever: You also have to deal with the environmental lawsuits stemming from a loss of wildlife habitat.

The BLM is a very active seller of land in the west. Lawsuits might slow such a project, but I doubt that they would completely stop them.


Cybernetic: Nuclear is a good option, but new plants would not be on line for years. The author's beloved "renewable" sources don't exist on anything near the scale needed to replace fossil fuels.

The can be said of just about any energy generation facility. It takes years to pull the permits and get the facility built.

The same also goes for the authorization of new mines. It takes a very long time for approval.
 
2008-05-13 6:04:35 PM  
AddictedToFoobies: "little shrimp"

I think you mean "jumbo shrimp".

I've got one of my own: "intelligent liter".
 
2008-05-13 6:41:30 PM  
I'm drunk, so I DNRTFA, but whatever the author is ranting about, someone pissed in his coffee.
 
2008-05-13 6:54:37 PM  
We need to move to nuclear power!!!
 
2008-05-13 7:38:32 PM  
Dinjiin: The BLM is a very active seller of land in the west. Lawsuits might slow such a project, but I doubt that they would completely stop them.

I would not say "very" active. Getting you hands on BLM is a little more difficult than you may think. This (new window) website has some interesting information:

FTLink
1)The BLM does not offer much land for sale because of a congressional mandate in 1976 to generally retain these lands in public ownership. The BLM does, however, occasionally sell parcels of land where our land use planning finds disposal is appropriate.
2)The law states that the BLM can select lands for sale if, through land use planning, they are found to meet one of three criteria: 1) they are scattered, isolated tracts, difficult or uneconomic to manage; 2) they were acquired for a specific purpose and are no longer needed for that purpose; or 3) disposal of the land will serve important public objectives, such as community expansion and economic development.

The Columbia Basin Project is only partially complete. Washington state officials have been lobbying the federal government to complete the project for some time. Upon completion, irrigated land in eastern Washington should double from 0.67 million to 1.1 million acres.

I am intrigued. You know about the Columiba Basin Project and must know that all of the principal features have been constructed, except the East High Canal and the extension of the East Low Canal, on which construction has been indefinitely deferred. (new window). You must also know the immense pressure by the environmental community and others to remove the 4 lower Snake River Dams in Washington that would likely dry up thousands of acres of farmland.

There has also been talk about diverting water from the Mississippi river basin into the eastern American desert (west Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, etc...). Such a plan would including pumping during the wet season, as well as building huge reservoirs for the dry season.

Being an engineer, I do not see how this is fesible. The capital cost coupled with the power requirement needed to move the water this distance and with enough elevation gain to get it over the Continental Divide would be staggering.

Is it a feasible task? Maybe not.

Yeah, I am going to say not feasible, but hey, that has never seemed to deter the government before, right ;)? And at least folks are starting to discuss the issue instead of pretending that it does not exist.
 
2008-05-13 8:14:16 PM  
HeadLever: I would not say "very" active.

Interesting. I must be confusing the BLM with state trusts then. Regardless, there is a healthy transfer of government land to private developers out there.


HeadLever: all of the principal features have been constructed, except the East High Canal and the extension of the East Low Canal, on which construction has been indefinitely deferred

Right. I am aware that the BLM currently has "no plans" on building out the additional canals. However, the governor has stated that she would like to see that position reversed. I recall that several eastern Washington Congressmen also hold that view.


HeadLever: You must also know the immense pressure by the environmental community and others to remove the 4 lower Snake River Dams in Washington that would likely dry up thousands of acres of farmland.

Environmentalists have been proponents of dam removal for years. However, recent droughts in eastern Washington combined with record electricity bills have taken a lot of steam out of those proposals.


HeadLever: The capital cost

-cough- -cough- Iraq war -cough-


HeadLever: power requirement needed to move the water this distance

Yeah, I think that's going to be the major obstacle. But keep in mind that California has floated the idea of pumping water from the Columbia south on several occasions. The Siskyous are no minor mountain range, either.

Somebody is going to build a nuclear reactor just to drive the pumps so that we can have farms growing corn for ethanol. You and I both know that the country works that way.
 
2008-05-13 9:18:30 PM  
Dinjiin: Right. I am aware that the BLM currently has "no plans" on building out the additional canals. However, the governor has stated that she would like to see that position reversed. I recall that several eastern Washington Congressmen also hold that view.

I can understand Eastern Wasington (Republican) pushing for this development, but I would have never believed that Mrs. Gregoire would support it. Hmm, that is very interesting.

However, recent droughts in eastern Washington combined with record electricity bills have taken a lot of steam out of those proposals.

Also the:
1)recent $900 million dollar agreement by 3 out of the 4 major Columbia River Basin Indian Tribes recently made with Federal Government in exchange to not push for breaching;
2)fact that hydro power is carbon neutral and breaching would be a slap in the face to the "Carbon Crowd"

-cough- -cough- Iraq war -cough-

Yeah, Yeah. Just because you could pave the nation's roads in gold with the money spent on the Iraq/Afghanistan war does not make it a good idea.

...so that we can have farms growing corn for ethanol.

If it was sustainable and economical in the free market, I would not have a problem with corn to ethanol. Hopefully in a couple of years some of the R&D companies can find ways to make algae or cellulosic ethanol viable and we will not have to worry about food based fuel. And that nuclear reactor can be used for electric heavy-rail in lieu of 18-wheel freight trasport.

/Pipe dreams??
//Probably
 
2008-05-14 3:13:19 AM  
I've read several of Friedman's books and found them insightful. They were well written. He might jump on a bandwagon or two, but that's no reason for the amount of hate he's receiving. You're sounding like he's advocating the burning of Iraqi infants to power his home.
 
2008-05-14 3:41:09 AM  
If Friedman had Boobies, more people might listen to him.
 
2008-05-14 4:54:23 AM  
Dinjiin:
There is no such thing as clean coal.

The coal mining process is very destructive to the environment, regardless if it is deep mining or strip mining. The mining process releases various heavy and radioactive metals that are found in coal seams. Iron sulfide in the seams forms sulfuric acid when exposed to precipitation. Methane gas, a known greenhouse gas, is also released. Much of this escapes from coal slag that is dumped near the mine.


Fair enough, though deep mining doesn't actually destroy plant life or use much surface area, so pretending they're equivalent environmentally is very disingenious (ok, can't spell that word, apparently). Heavy metals just need to be monitored (don't eat fish from a runoff stream, once it gets to the ocean you're fine, with the possible exception of mercury in bottom-feeders) and radioactives are largely harmless, godzilla movies aside. Sulfide is a legitimate concern, which is why there are already a number of methods in place for dealing with it. Fuel engineers haven't been sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for the last two centuries, you know, fixing the acid rain thing was the big engineering problem of the late 1900s.


As for burning it, well, all of those heavy metals and radioactive metals are expelled into the atmosphere. Much of that can be reduced by using scrubbers and/or by performing a "liquid coal" extraction prior to use, but then you still need to dispose of it afterwards. Not to mention that the conversion to liquid coal is nasty in its own regard.

The point of 'clean coal' is to not just straight-up burn it. If you've kept the contaminants from being released into the atmosphere, you're fine. Most of them can be buried in an old defunct mine with no impact whatsoever, or even just left lying about. Remember, the stuff has been sitting around in solid form for centuries without doing anything to you, if we keep it in solid form it will continue in its innofensiveness, largely speaking.


Ethanol alcohol fuel is fine as long as you get it from proper sources, such as Miscanthus ryegrass and sugar cane. It is even better when extracted from cellulose such agriculture plant waste.

It fails as a green source when you use a crop such as corn. Of course, ethanol wouldn't be profitable from a low sugar yield crop like corn were it not for subsidies. So, blame Washington and the corn lobby for that farkup.


To convert cellulose to glucose (the first step in the process if you want any kind of useful yield at all) you still have to use a homogeneous enzyme. This means it will always be (a) expensive and (b) energy-intensive, regardless of your source. Right now, we could probably convert every bit of green stuff on the planet into ethanol and the return would still be too low to provide enough power for the basic things keeping civilization running like refrigeration and vehicles. It's a decent stopgap for some things that run on portable fuel, but don't mistake that for a real 'solution' to the energy 'problem'.

Tying it to a food crop is, of course, also stupid for different reasons, but the current lack of viability of ethanol on a large scale goes well beyond that. It's not 'fine'.

//Remember, 'replacing coal' is not a relatively small-volume problem like 'replacing gasoline'. Gasoline is a cars problem, which is a relatively small portion of energy consumption and restricted by portability anyhow. With coal, you're talking about fueling the national power grid, which is something else altogether.

//I vote nuclear with a bit of solar tacked on, by the way.

//Mainly because we use oil and coal to make steel and plastics and everything else, not because I have a huge problem with burning them as such.
 
2008-05-14 6:48:03 AM  
rabidarmadillo24: I've read several of Friedman's books and found them insightful. They were well written. He might jump on a bandwagon or two, but that's no reason for the amount of hate he's receiving. You're sounding like he's advocating the burning of Iraqi infants to power his home.

I was going to write something like this, but you said it better.
 
2008-05-15 5:08:43 AM  
theigorway: Friedman's the douglas feith of journalists -- in the infamous words of general franks, the "dumbest farking guy on the planet."

Also, Friedman was one of the loudest cheerleaders advocating war with Iraq.


Thread didn't have to go any farther.
 
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