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(LA Times)   When MoveOn.org satirizes Gen. Petraeus as Gen. "Betray Us," that's free speech. When a T-shirt company satirizes MoveOn.org, you'd better believe that's not free speech--that's a suin'   (opinion.latimes.com) divider line
    More: Asinine  
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2438 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Oct 2007 at 8:25 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



145 Comments     (+0 »)


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2007-10-11 5:02:50 PM  
It's called trademark infringement, not free speech.
 
2007-10-11 5:04:08 PM  
It's an alleged trademark infringement, dumbass. If Patreaus sold teeshirts with his picture and General Betray-us underneath, he too could have sent a cease and desist letter to Moveon
 
2007-10-11 5:09:41 PM  
It's an alleged trademark infringement, dumbass.

RTFA. Trademark infringement law is there to protect the consumer more than the trademark holder. In this case, MoveOn.org would have to prove consumers would be fooled into thinking they were buying actual MoveOn.org T-shirts. OTOH, all the T-shirt company has to prove is that they intended to satirize or comment on MoveOn.org.

This is a nuisance lawsuit and MoveOn ain't got a prayer of winning if they're dumb enough to push for a trial.
 
2007-10-11 5:10:07 PM  
When a political group pays for an ad - that's free speech.

When a dipwad uses a trademark without permission - that's a lawsuit.

Are people really this partisan retarded?
 
2007-10-11 5:11:26 PM  
SquirrelsOfDoom: In this case, MoveOn.org would have to prove consumers would be fooled into thinking they were buying actual MoveOn.org T-shirts. OTOH, all the T-shirt company has to prove is that they intended to satirize or comment on MoveOn.org.

This is a nuisance lawsuit and MoveOn ain't got a prayer of winning if they're dumb enough to push for a trial.


Bingo. It's a SLAPP-style suit, meant to silence a critic.
 
2007-10-11 5:12:11 PM  

home.roadrunner.comView Full Size


 
2007-10-11 5:12:56 PM  
pwhp_67: When a political group pays for an ad - that's free speech.

When a dipwad uses a trademark without permission - that's a lawsuit.

Are people really this partisan retarded?


Apparently. . . or do you really think it's a violation of trademark to reference the name of an organization you oppose?

Be interesting to see how that plays out.
 
2007-10-11 5:15:52 PM  
Remember: you can dislike some things MoveOn does without instantly turning into a Bush supporter.
 
2007-10-11 5:17:35 PM  
When a dipwad uses a trademark without permission - that's a lawsuit.

As I said, thanks to ample Supreme Court precedent, MoveOn.org will have to prove that consumers would be fooled into thinking they were buying an actual MoveOn.org product.

Do you really think anyone will think that about this shirt?

[image from jitcrunch.cafepress.com too old to be available]
 
2007-10-11 5:19:31 PM  
Moveon.org are coonts
Moveon.org is a circle jerk for the mentally disabled.
Moveon.org is a very nice meeting place for pedophiles.

/waits for lawsuits
 
2007-10-11 5:24:54 PM  
pwhp_67: Are people really this partisan/retarded?

Just sit back and watch the replies prove both to be true.
 
2007-10-11 5:25:00 PM  
Take, for example, this message on a t-shirt designed by a lifelong Democrat from Southern California:

General Petraeus has done more for this country than MoveOn.org. MoveOn.org, the worst friend a Democrat could have! Move Away from Move On!


Good to know some of them are waking up.
 
2007-10-11 5:26:20 PM  
SquirrelsOfDoom: RTFA. Trademark infringement law is there to protect the consumer more than the trademark holder. In this case, MoveOn.org would have to prove consumers would be fooled into thinking they were buying actual MoveOn.org T-shirts. OTOH, all the T-shirt company has to prove is that they intended to satirize or comment on MoveOn.org.

This is a nuisance lawsuit and MoveOn ain't got a prayer of winning if they're dumb enough to push for a trial.


TFA is a farking blog. And as for trademark law, they aren't really on top of that either. Moveon sells t-shirts using their mark thus creating confusion in the mind of reasonable consumers. While the parody tshirt company may be able to assert a defense of parody, that is their burden to prove. This would not be a sanctionable case if Moveon brought an action for infringement in my opinion. Moreover, if Moveon did not challenge this unauthorized use of its marks, it could run the risk of being deemed to have abandoned the mark as well.
 
2007-10-11 5:28:24 PM  
TheConvincingSavant: Take, for example, this message on a t-shirt designed by a lifelong Democrat from Southern California:

General Petraeus has done more for this country than MoveOn.org. MoveOn.org, the worst friend a Democrat could have! Move Away from Move On!

Good to know some of them are waking up.


Still awaiting your citation to authority to prove your assertion that the Clinton tax increases in 1993 retarded the economy by 26%. Or was that your damn wife posting nonsense again?
 
2007-10-11 5:29:33 PM  
Mordant: pwhp_67: Are people really this partisan/retarded?

Just sit back and watch the replies prove both to be true.


You know, I sat here for 5 minutes trying to decide which word I was going to strike...
 
2007-10-11 5:29:38 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: Moreover, if Moveon did not challenge this unauthorized use of its marks, it could run the risk of being deemed to have abandoned the mark as well.

This is a good point. If a court found MoveOn had moved on from the "MoveOn" mark via abandonment, it could tell MoveOn to take it's infringement suit and move on. I hope that helps.
 
2007-10-11 5:31:08 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: Moreover, if Moveon did not challenge this unauthorized use of its marks, it could run the risk of being deemed to have abandoned the mark as well.

Bullshiat. You are not required to defend a trademark against parody or satire. This is a SLAPP suit clear and simple. This form of litigation is frequently filed by organizations or individuals to intimidate and silence critics or opponents by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense so that they abandon their criticism or opposition.

It is a good litmus test for those midnlessly partisan enough to support MoveOn.org no matter what lines they cross.

I'll be likely voting Democrat for President in 2008, but it would be nice if they reject the fanatical brownshirts represented by MoveOn.
 
2007-10-11 5:31:22 PM  
Nabb1: This is a good point. If a court found MoveOn had moved on from the "MoveOn" mark via abandonment, it could tell MoveOn to take it's infringement suit and move on. I hope that helps.

But it cannot be deemed to have moved on as long as it continues to move toward protecting its moveon mark.
 
2007-10-11 5:34:47 PM  
TFA is a farking blog.

So?

While the parody tshirt company may be able to assert a defense of parody, that is their burden to prove.

Coulda swore that's exactly what I said--you quoted me, in fact.

Lemme repeat what each side would have to prove if this case goes to court:

1. CafePress will have to prove that their only intent was either to satirize or comment upon MoveOn.org.

2. MoveOn will have to prove the average consumer could go to a Web site named CafePress and buy this T-shirt, all the while convinced they were actually buying it from MoveOn.org.

Which do YOU think is the stronger case?
 
2007-10-11 5:35:42 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: Nabb1: This is a good point. If a court found MoveOn had moved on from the "MoveOn" mark via abandonment, it could tell MoveOn to take it's infringement suit and move on. I hope that helps.

But it cannot be deemed to have moved on as long as it continues to move toward protecting its moveon mark.


Which is why MoveOn needs to make a move on all potential infringers, even if ultimately it may be a fair use, rather than loss of trademark. The former you can live with, ultimately. The latter would be disasterous, from the mark holder's perspective, anyway.
 
2007-10-11 5:37:43 PM  
Boojum2k: Bullshiat. You are not required to defend a trademark against parody or satire. This is a SLAPP suit clear and simple. This form of litigation is frequently filed by organizations or individuals to intimidate and silence critics or opponents by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense so that they abandon their criticism or opposition.

It is a good litmus test for those midnlessly partisan enough to support MoveOn.org no matter what lines they cross.

I'll be likely voting Democrat for President in 2008, but it would be nice if they reject the fanatical brownshirts represented by MoveOn.


Whether it is parody is a legal determination that cannot be resolved without a judicial proceeding that some of us in the legal profession call a suit or more colloquially litigation. I am not defending moveon's betrayus ad (although it was taken out of context. They didn't call him betrayus, they asked him not to become betrayus (but then to fundies context only matters when Rush edits it)). It was a bad idea that they should have appreciated would have thrown the fundie wingnuts into apopolexy which the MSM sheeps would follow. I am only suggesting that there is nothing wrong with a trademark holder sending a c&d letter to someone who may be infringing on their mark.
 
2007-10-11 5:37:53 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: Still awaiting your citation to authority to prove your assertion that the Clinton tax increases in 1993 retarded the economy by 26%.

What the hell are you talking about? Quit humping my leg.
 
2007-10-11 5:38:47 PM  
Moreover, if Moveon did not challenge this unauthorized use of its marks, it could run the risk of being deemed to have abandoned the mark as well.

True enough. But they can't base their case on that risk. They have to prove the average consumer would think the shirt actually came from MoveOn.org. I'd say they'd run a bigger risk of damaging their own image with this dumbass lawsuit than of losing their trademark if they DON'T sue.

Besides, the C&D letter is more than sufficient to demonstrate due diligence in that regard. Works this way all the time: Both parties know the lawsuit is a joke, but the plaintiff sends the letter, the defendant tells 'em to fark off, the defendant files a copy of the letter to demonstrate they're protecting their trademark, and everyone calls it a day.
 
2007-10-11 5:40:50 PM  
SquirrelsOfDoom: TFA is a farking blog.

So?

While the parody tshirt company may be able to assert a defense of parody, that is their burden to prove.

Coulda swore that's exactly what I said--you quoted me, in fact.

Lemme repeat what each side would have to prove if this case goes to court:

1. CafePress will have to prove that their only intent was either to satirize or comment upon MoveOn.org.

2. MoveOn will have to prove the average consumer could go to a Web site named CafePress and buy this T-shirt, all the while convinced they were actually buying it from MoveOn.org.

Which do YOU think is the stronger case?


So if the defense to the action is an affirmative one, the case by definition is not frivolous. Whether a use is parody is a question of fact of for the fact finder necessitating a trial.

As for whom I would rather represent, I always prefer the side that doesn't have the burden of proof, especially here where Moveon might be eligible for statutory damages and costs if CafePress doesn't sustain its burden.
 
2007-10-11 5:41:55 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: While the parody tshirt company may be able to assert a defense of parody, that is their burden to prove.

That's odd -- is the burden truly on the defending party? Most of the time its the plaintiff that has the burden to prove all elements of a prima facie case.
 
2007-10-11 5:42:44 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: I am only suggesting that there is nothing wrong with a trademark holder sending a c&d letter to someone who may be infringing on their mark.

If your conscience isn't wrestling with you the entire time you wrote that, it must have been surgically removed.

Since when does a well-funded organization have the right to shut down someones critical speech by threatening a lawsuit?

Oh, but those with the money have the power, right?
 
2007-10-11 5:44:11 PM  
KaponoFor3: That's odd -- is the burden truly on the defending party? Most of the time its the plaintiff that has the burden to prove all elements of a prima facie case.

A defense to the prima facia case is the that use was parody. It is similar to fair use in copyright.
 
2007-10-11 5:44:47 PM  
KaponoFor3: BritneysSpeculum: While the parody tshirt company may be able to assert a defense of parody, that is their burden to prove.

That's odd -- is the burden truly on the defending party? Most of the time its the plaintiff that has the burden to prove all elements of a prima facie case.


Well, it is wikipedia, but their article on SLAPP that I linked earlier indicates the burden is on the plaintiff. Of course, California is the only state to have actually enacted specific anti-SLAPP legislation, but legal recognition of the bullying nature of these suits is spreading throughout the U.S.
 
2007-10-11 5:44:48 PM  
Boojum2k: Since when does a well-funded organization have the right to shut down someones critical speech by threatening a lawsuit?

Oh, but those with the money have the power, right?


Um, according to the article that isn't happening. The site has refused to take down the products. They are a business and they most likely have lawyers of their own - real ones, not internet lawyers...
 
2007-10-11 5:45:56 PM  
Boojum2k: BritneysSpeculum: I am only suggesting that there is nothing wrong with a trademark holder sending a c&d letter to someone who may be infringing on their mark.

If your conscience isn't wrestling with you the entire time you wrote that, it must have been surgically removed.

Since when does a well-funded organization have the right to shut down someones critical speech by threatening a lawsuit?

Oh, but those with the money have the power, right?


CafePress is not making these t-shirts as a political statement but to make money.

Dude, fight the t-shirt power.
 
2007-10-11 5:46:03 PM  
KaponoFor3: BritneysSpeculum: While the parody tshirt company may be able to assert a defense of parody, that is their burden to prove.

That's odd -- is the burden truly on the defending party? Most of the time its the plaintiff that has the burden to prove all elements of a prima facie case.


No, the burden shifts to the defendant to prove the elements of an affirmative defense, which parody is. The plaintiff still has to make a prima facie case, but that would be pretty easy, since the mark "MoveOn.org" is plainly on the shirt, and then modified for the apparent parody effect. You have use of the mark in commerce, so MoveOn has a leg up there. Given the political nature of MoveOn.org, that could arguably lend an element of political speech to Cafe Press's defense, which would offer more protection that purely commercial speech. And the confusion element is pretty big, too. I doubt any reasonable consumer would really think he was buying a MoveOn.org shirt if he bought that.
 
2007-10-11 5:46:35 PM  
real ones, not internet lawyers

You mean lawyers who actually know how to spell "prima facie" correctly and who know that "fair use" is a general legal defense, not an actual statute?
 
2007-10-11 5:48:05 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: Boojum2k: BritneysSpeculum: I am only suggesting that there is nothing wrong with a trademark holder sending a c&d letter to someone who may be infringing on their mark.

If your conscience isn't wrestling with you the entire time you wrote that, it must have been surgically removed.

Since when does a well-funded organization have the right to shut down someones critical speech by threatening a lawsuit?

Oh, but those with the money have the power, right?

CafePress is not making these t-shirts as a political statement but to make money.

Dude, fight the t-shirt power.


CafePress is the printer, they are no more responsible for the content, meeting their ToS, than the NYT was over MoveOn's ad.

The intent is to shut down criticism, and you damn well know that.
 
2007-10-11 5:48:21 PM  
SquirrelsOfDoom: You mean lawyers who actually know how to spell "prima facie" correctly and who know that "fair use" is a general legal defense, not an actual statute?


Um...

*scratches head*

Sure, like that...
 
2007-10-11 5:48:25 PM  
BritneysSpeculum:I am not defending moveon's betrayus ad (although it was taken out of context. They didn't call him betrayus, they asked him not to become betrayus (but then to fundies context only matters when Rush edits it)).

If you took the time to actually read the ad you'd know that it says is that Petraeus is likely to become Betrayus. Hint: it's the very last line of the ad.

Read it and quit talking about context until you have a basic understanding of the term.
 
2007-10-11 5:49:02 PM  
CafePress is not making these t-shirts as a political statement but to make money.

Since when do those things have to be mutually exclusive? Any reason why CafePress cannot legitimately earn its collective living selling politically motivated parody?
 
2007-10-11 5:49:12 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: CafePress is not making these t-shirts as a political statement but to make money.

Dude, fight the t-shirt power.


The fact that a political statement is being sold on a t-shirt doesn't make it less political, though. If MoveOn.org sells it's own t-shirts, they are still engaged in commerce with their mark as well. The fact that they may be a not-for-profit entity doesn't change the trademark ramifications, although my trademark law is a wee bit rusty.
 
2007-10-11 5:49:30 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: KaponoFor3: That's odd -- is the burden truly on the defending party? Most of the time its the plaintiff that has the burden to prove all elements of a prima facie case.
A defense to the prima facia case is the that use was parody. It is similar to fair use in copyright.


Ah, I see. I didn't know if parody was an affirmative defense or part of the prima facie case. Thanks for clearing that up (I never took any IP classes)

Nabb1: No, the burden shifts to the defendant to prove the elements of an affirmative defense, which parody is.

Hence my confusion.
 
2007-10-11 5:49:56 PM  
SquirrelsOfDoom: You mean lawyers who actually know how to spell "prima facie" correctly and who know that "fair use" is a general legal defense, not an actual statute?

What the fark are you talking about. Fair use is codified at section 107 of the Copyright Act, you internet lawyer.
 
2007-10-11 5:51:45 PM  
Britney is imploding.
 
2007-10-11 5:53:41 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: What the fark are you talking about. Fair use is codified at section 107 of the Copyright Act, you internet lawyer.

Ooo, calm down, counselor. But, yes, IIRC, "fair use" is spelled out in the Act.
 
2007-10-11 5:54:03 PM  
In about one month I'm going to go from Internet Lawyer (tm) to Real Lawyer
 
2007-10-11 5:54:16 PM  
He was talking about the time you utterly embarassed yourself because instead of admitting you were wrong and slinking out of the thread (something everyone would have forgotten) you pretended to be your own wife.

Though for my money it was nowhere near as amusing as the period when you claimed to be a famous left wing political commentator and author who couldn't reveal his real name because it would hurt your book sales when liberals discovered that you were in fact a conservative.

That was awesome.
 
2007-10-11 5:54:17 PM  
TheConvincingSavant: If you took the time to actually read the ad you'd know that it says is that Petraeus is likely to become Betrayus. Hint: it's the very last line of the ad.

Read it and quit talking about context until you have a basic understanding of the term.


So you agree that they didn't call him General Betray-us. Ok thanks for playing.

Oh and sorry for that 26% comment, that was another fundie wingnut.
 
2007-10-11 5:56:42 PM  
FTFA: ...it's amazing that MoveOn would try to squelch political speech


No it's not. Liberals want for everyone else to be SILENT, or at least shouted down.

'For me, but not for thee'... the liberal battlecry.
 
2007-10-11 5:56:59 PM  
Nabb1: Ooo, calm down, counselor. But, yes, IIRC, "fair use" is spelled out in the Act.

I am calm, but I just didn't appreciate Earl Warren's comment.
 
2007-10-11 5:57:07 PM  
Tigger: That was awesome.


I must have blinked or something. Who did all that?
 
2007-10-11 5:57:23 PM  
SquirrelsOfDoom: This is a nuisance lawsuit and MoveOn ain't got a prayer of winning if they're dumb enough to push for a trial.

Boojum2k: Bingo. It's a SLAPP-style suit, meant to silence a critic.

A cease-and-desist letter is not a lawsuit. There is no lawsuit.

/A fark headline wrong? Unpossible!
 
2007-10-11 6:02:41 PM  
BritneysSpeculum: I am calm, but I just didn't appreciate Earl Warren's comment.

This is Fark. You could be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and someone here would tell you that you had not idea what the law says.
 
2007-10-11 6:03:35 PM  
Afternoon_Delight: No it's not. Liberals want for everyone else to be SILENT, or at least shouted down.


i37.photobucket.comView Full Size


SHUT UP! YOU JUST SHUT UP!

*hangs up*
 
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