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(Boston Globe)   US military asks anthropologists for info on Iraqi tribes to help reduce bloodshed and improve diplomacy; anthropologists delighted to help. Just kidding: Actually they scream that it's prostituting their science   (boston.com) divider line
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948 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Oct 2007 at 5:49 AM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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knbber2
2007-10-08 5:59:52 PM  
Why do anthropologists hate America?
 
Gavino
2007-10-08 6:05:55 PM  
Evil bloodthirsty scientists thwarting the plans of the peaceful military again!
 
scruffy1
2007-10-08 6:07:49 PM  
The article fails to mention it but anthropologists were asked to do the same thing in Vietnam, some worked with the military and the CIA only to find out afterwards that their research was being used to not only kill off the VC but also to kill Vietnamese villagers. Many anthropologists today fear that the same will happen in Iraq especially since the Bush administration and those under him have shown time and time again to not only be anti-intellectual but also to be more than willing to use brute force to get their point across.

This comes in direct conflict with the credo and dogma of anthropologists where they are supposed to attempt their hardest to not harm the people whom they study. Think of the "prime directive" in Star Trek, it's rather similar. It also doesn't help that most if not all anthropologists are anti-Bush because if his feelings and commentaries about education, intellectuals and above all evolution and religion, topics that directly affect the vast majority of anthropologists.

On can say that perhaps they are over-reacting but keep in mind that in WWII both the US and Germany used anthropologist and anthropological warfare in order to fight their enemies and punish and detractors. And then there was that whole master race thing Hitler was attempting to prove misusing anthropological data which coincidently had been mined and compiled by American anthropologists usually with a lack of understanding of what they were doing or how they were doing it.
 
SherKhan
2007-10-08 6:16:08 PM  
scruffy1:

The article fails to mention it but anthropologists were asked to do the same thing in Vietnam,

FTA:

The military's own descriptions of the new teams give pause to Price and others - such as one Pentagon official who likened them to the Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support project during the Vietnam War. That effort helped identify Vietnamese suspected as communists and Viet Cong collaborators; some were later assassinated by the United States.

A lesser man might say you fail or something rude but I say you just didn't succeed in reading the article closely.
 
Great Metal Jesus
2007-10-08 6:51:04 PM  
I was going to make a well thought out and informative post on Anthropology in this thread but I see that scruffy1 nailed pretty much every key point.
 
scruffy1
2007-10-08 7:03:55 PM  
SherKhan

Dammit, that's what I get for skimming too many articles at once. I need a dunce cap with a fail .jpg on it for this one of many occasions.

/I fail at the readings.
 
SoxSweepAgain
2007-10-08 8:24:44 PM  
Kudos to the anthropologists for refusing, and as far as Bushy-boy goes, too little, too late, muthafokka.

Should have consulted them earlier, like, perhaps, before your stupid war.

/But the results might have been inconvenient for you and Dicky.
 
Control_this
2007-10-08 8:32:40 PM  
Oh what's next? Bush will recruit some theologians to help us understand and kill the mullahs?
 
Therion [TotalFark]
2007-10-08 8:51:15 PM  
cache.boston.comView Full Size


I'll bet that second gesture has caused a lot of "oops, my bad!"
 
alexanderplatz
2007-10-08 8:56:21 PM  
If only the military had some sort of university system where officers in training could take classes in things like Middle Eastern Studies, the Arabic language, or anthropology. I bet it would work if they offered free classes in return for military service. Hmm.
 
Mugato [TotalFark]
2007-10-08 9:09:53 PM  
Playing a little loose with the word "science", aren't we?
 
keylock71
2007-10-08 9:51:07 PM  
Bit like closing the barn door after the horses have run out, eh?
 
Control_this
2007-10-09 2:32:52 AM  
Skwidd:
It's not like playing nice is getting consistent results

You're the kid who abuses fish in an aquarium, trying to force them to get along.
 
binnster
2007-10-09 5:26:23 AM  
Control_this

Don't knock fish abuse until you've tried it.
 
Tenebreux [TotalFark]
2007-10-09 6:30:02 AM  
binnster: Control_this

Don't knock fish abuse until you've tried it.

Abuse? In my fish tank? It's more likely than you think...
 
pup.socket
2007-10-09 6:48:05 AM  
Therion: I'll bet that second gesture has caused a lot of "oops, my bad!"

I'd think that there was hardly any 'my bad', and not many 'oops'-es either.

And, by the way, the discussion in the article is should the anthropologists violate their own rules (which require the consent of the subjects of study) by helping out an occupation force. This being presented as 'unwilling to help reducing violence' is kinda like lying a little.

Also, army is the other means, so mixing in diplomacy is a bit ridiculous rediculous.

//auto-pet peeve?
 
Ra_
2007-10-09 7:09:16 AM  
Iraq is not a good enough reason to allow even 1 more soldier to die

[image from thrilltone.com too old to be available]


/hard for us to admit we were wrong
 
Cornwell
2007-10-09 7:20:50 AM  
That would be applied "science" and that alone is a reason for outrage among anthropologists, who prefer to travel on university expense to somewhere they can take a look at people for three months while getting their tan right, and then spend six months writing a book about the unique culture "we" are about to destroy in some way or another.

I say pull out, and lets rather turn it into a sandbox experiment of what happens when you eviscerate anything resembling infrastructure in a country. Social scientists will literally have a field-day over that.
 
GilRuiz1
2007-10-09 7:27:51 AM  
Didn't we have experts advising the armed forces and the US government about these sort of issues from the very beginning? I vaguely remember some sort of discussion a few years ago about soldiers getting training on how the Iraqi culture works and how not to offend people.

For example, this: The US forces' superficial understanding of local tribal customs and ancient ethnic and sectarian rivalries has hampered their efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. An outstretched arm, palm facing forward, for example, means "stop" in most Western cultures, but in Iraq it's considered a sign of welcome. Confusion over the signal has had deadly consequences, leading US troops to open fire at Iraqi civilians who didn't stop at checkpoints.

Didn't we hand out a little manual to every soldier explaining stuff like this from the very beginning? I was under the impression that we did. But are we only now getting to it, now that the war is almost over? At least somebody please tell me that President Bush and the rest of the strategic planners aren't trying to orchestrate Iraqi regional politics without the assistance of a team of experts on Iraq who are advising them on how the tribal politics work!
 
yarnothuntin
2007-10-09 7:35:38 AM  
Meh, just dangle a tenure in their face and the newbies will come around.
 
binnster
2007-10-09 7:53:18 AM  
Mugato: Playing a little loose lose with the word "science", aren't we?

Pot poove.
 
grinningdeamon
2007-10-09 7:57:28 AM  
binnster: Control_this

Don't knock fish abuse until you've tried it.

The first rule of Betta Fight Club is...
 
Smellvin
2007-10-09 8:02:28 AM  
Ra_: If Ron Paul's good enough for a professional technoviking, he's good enough for the rest of us.
 
nictamer
2007-10-09 8:05:00 AM  
GilRuiz1: Didn't we hand out a little manual to every soldier explaining stuff like this from the very beginning? I was under the impression that we did.

Yes, but is your soldiers learning?
 
Ra_
2007-10-09 8:40:55 AM  
Regardless of what happens when we leave Iraq,
it can't be much worse than what we've done while there.

They don't need our mercenary thugs running around 'helping them'.
We blew it. Get the fark out and lick your wounds.
Let them handle their own business.
 
larry00
2007-10-09 9:02:51 AM  
I see the anthropologists are helping kill the enemy by not helping the US Military understand why the tribal differences kill.

Typical leftists 180 degrees backwards thinking.
The idea is to save lives but of course the policies to withhold knowledge have the opposite effect.
 
Headso
2007-10-09 9:05:33 AM  
Ra_:Regardless of what happens when we leave Iraq,

We are not leaving Iraq though.
 
for good or for awesome
2007-10-09 9:14:47 AM  
This would have been a great idea. About five years ago.
Dumbasses.
 
I_C_Weener [TotalFark]
2007-10-09 9:33:05 AM  
scruffy1: This comes in direct conflict with the credo and dogma of anthropologists

They have a credo...and dogma? Interesting...First, I shall do no harm. Second, I shall allow the looting and destruction of countless anthropological and archeaological and historial sites because I've got a credo.

Who has a credo nowadays?
 
bubbaprog
2007-10-09 9:41:55 AM  
Pretty much everything we learn about ethnography would be corrupted by cooperation with the war effort as currently being executed.
 
mveres
2007-10-09 9:48:04 AM  
Anthroplogists have been (justifiably) a bit wary of working for the government ever since Project Camelot. There is just no way of knowing for certain how the informaion provded is going to be used.

and I_C_Weener, yes, there is a code, or 'credo', in place thanks to the American Anthropological Association, a body formed after the above mentioned project, to make sure that the actions and research are both properly performed, and ethical.
 
smokinjayz
2007-10-09 9:55:55 AM  
I_C_Weener: scruffy1: This comes in direct conflict with the credo and dogma of anthropologists

They have a credo...and dogma? Interesting...First, I shall do no harm. Second, I shall allow the looting and destruction of countless anthropological and archeaological and historial sites because I've got a credo.

Who has a credo nowadays?

Methinks you're basing your view of anthropology on Indiana Jones and not current techniques or trends.
 
Cornwell
2007-10-09 9:59:03 AM  
I_C_Weener: Who has a credo nowadays?

People with integrity. Unfortunately, these are almost an extinct species.
 
milk_plus
2007-10-09 10:01:11 AM  
Maybe they learned a lesson from the MDs and psychologists who helped interrogators at the secret torture prisons. I wouldn't trust the military either.
 
Shaggy_C
2007-10-09 10:08:51 AM  
Scientists helping the military face backlash from academics? Imagine that!

[image from ivorytower.se too old to be available]
 
gshepnyc
2007-10-09 10:22:42 AM  
Maybe this should have been part of the pre-war planning which apparently didn't take as much careful thought as, in hindsight, it should have. Now they want to spread the blame around to others who just don't want to be involved in the disgusting spectacle.

What part of "war of choice" don't people understand?
 
hockeyfarker
2007-10-09 10:27:03 AM  
Buncha tools. Oh no, we're using "science" to possibly help communication between US troops and the locals! Won't someone think of the science!"

Tools I say.
 
burndtdan
2007-10-09 10:41:51 AM  
gshepnyc: Maybe this should have been part of the pre-war planning which apparently didn't take as much careful thought as, in hindsight, it should have. Now they want to spread the blame around to others who just don't want to be involved in the disgusting spectacle.

What part of "war of choice" don't people understand?

well to be honest, i think it didn't take hindsight to see that the war didn't have as much planning as it should have.

it just took hindsight for people to admit it. and some still won't.
 
gshepnyc
2007-10-09 10:48:32 AM  
burndtdan: gshepnyc: Maybe this should have been part of the pre-war planning which apparently didn't take as much careful thought as, in hindsight, it should have. Now they want to spread the blame around to others who just don't want to be involved in the disgusting spectacle.

What part of "war of choice" don't people understand?

well to be honest, i think it didn't take hindsight to see that the war didn't have as much planning as it should have.

it just took hindsight for people to admit it. and some still won't.

That's a good point and I think there was a lot of planning. It was just of the "how can we get away with this" and "how do we sell a load of hogwash to the public" and "hot damn I can't wait" variety.
 
StarlingFive
2007-10-09 10:51:41 AM  
They should have asked them all in the beginning when a large majority of you helpless airheads were still humping your wankers raw on the patriotic flagpole orgy.

What was the approval rating for Bush and Iraq back then?

This could all have been avoided had everyone just taken a moment to stop and think.

/Bitter, bitter, man.
// Told you so.
 
UnkleKrakker
2007-10-09 10:56:02 AM  
for good or for awesome: This would have been a great idea. About five years ago.
Dumbasses.

Win
 
inconnu
2007-10-09 10:58:47 AM  
Can anthropologists afford to be this picky?

They need all the work they can get.
 
I_C_Weener [TotalFark]
2007-10-09 11:00:27 AM  
smokinjayz: Methinks you're basing your view of anthropology on Indiana Jones and not current techniques or trends.

You call him Doctor Jones!!!
 
burndtdan
2007-10-09 11:05:36 AM  
gshepnyc: burndtdan: gshepnyc: Maybe this should have been part of the pre-war planning which apparently didn't take as much careful thought as, in hindsight, it should have. Now they want to spread the blame around to others who just don't want to be involved in the disgusting spectacle.

What part of "war of choice" don't people understand?

well to be honest, i think it didn't take hindsight to see that the war didn't have as much planning as it should have.

it just took hindsight for people to admit it. and some still won't.

That's a good point and I think there was a lot of planning. It was just of the "how can we get away with this" and "how do we sell a load of hogwash to the public" and "hot damn I can't wait" variety.

lol too true.
 
MasterThief
2007-10-09 11:19:30 AM  
Patriotism is the highest form of dissent.
 
hockeyfarker
2007-10-09 11:27:53 AM  
MasterThief: Patriotism is the highest form of dissent.

Want to try that again there, chief?
 
Toonol
2007-10-09 11:34:23 AM  
"anthropological research should never be used to inflict harm, must always have the consent of the population being studied, and must not be conducted in secret."

So Sayeth Anthopologist Prime, the greatest of the living Anthropologists. His leadership and drive is an inspiration to all other anthropologists who are tempted to used the science of anthropology for evil, or personal gain.
 
Polly Ester
2007-10-09 12:02:14 PM  
These professors are just afraid that their dirty secret will get out: that the discipline they have devoted their lives to study is a hollow sham bereft of real world application.
 
The Why Not Guy
2007-10-09 12:10:43 PM  
larry00: Typical leftists 180 degrees backwards thinking.

Save a slice or two of that blame pie you're serving up for the people who put us in Iraq without a sufficient understanding of what we were getting into and an unwillingness to learn. I mean, I realize the Bush administration's invasion of a nation based on false information pales in significance to the role of anthropologists, but I'd say they still deserve to be held accountable.
 
The Why Not Guy
2007-10-09 12:12:04 PM  
Polly Ester: These professors are just afraid that their dirty secret will get out: that the discipline they have devoted their lives to study is a hollow sham bereft of real world application.

If there's no real world application then why is the military asking for their help?
 
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