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(Yahoo)   Digital protesting is more effective and fun because no one gets tear-gassed. With "Look at me, I was really a cool hippie protester back in the '60s and please God let me relive my glory days" photo goodness   (news.yahoo.com) divider line
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3739 clicks; posted to Fandom » and Politics » on 17 Sep 2007 at 1:37 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



40 Comments     (+0 »)
 
snake_beater
2007-09-17 1:40:18 PM  
Instant green?
 
MindStalker
2007-09-17 1:40:21 PM  
Fail!
 
the_sidewinder
2007-09-17 1:42:08 PM  
I would go out and protest against this type of thing, but I'm too lazy. So I'll do it from here

/damn hippies!
 
Shaggy_C
2007-09-17 1:43:18 PM  
I heard an older gentleman on the radio the other decrying the lack of outrage in the streets in regard to the Iraq war. It is even more unpopular than Vietnam was, yet there isn't the prolonged, highly-visible protest movement in the public eye. He blames the internet; I'm inclined to agree, because it's a lot easier to biatch and moan online than actually do anything for change. In the '60s they didn't have that luxury, and went out into the streets to show their displeasure.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-09-17 1:43:26 PM  
snake_beater: Instant green?

Shorter queue on the Geek page, I suppose.
 
endlessben
2007-09-17 1:45:07 PM  
With "Look at me! I was a really cool internet guy in 07 please God kill me!" submission goodness
 
Ace Frehley's Ghost
2007-09-17 1:47:29 PM  
Shaggy_C: I heard an older gentleman on the radio the other decrying the lack of outrage in the streets in regard to the Iraq war. It is even more unpopular than Vietnam was, yet there isn't the prolonged, highly-visible protest movement in the public eye. He blames the internet; I'm inclined to agree, because it's a lot easier to biatch and moan online than actually do anything for change. In the '60s they didn't have that luxury, and went out into the streets to show their displeasure.

You don't think the absence of a draft might have something to do with it?
 
Shaggy_C
2007-09-17 1:47:52 PM  
Ace Frehley's Ghost: You don't think the absence of a draft might have something to do with it?

That too :)
 
tricycleracer
2007-09-17 1:48:05 PM  
Shaggy_C: It is even more unpopular than Vietnam was, yet there isn't the prolonged, highly-visible protest movement in the public eye.

No draft.
 
szyska
2007-09-17 1:49:29 PM  
Shaggy_C: Ace Frehley's Ghost: You don't think the absence of a draft might have something to do with it?

That too :)

Didn't want to seem like a troll and say that, but you put it across more diplomatically than I could....
 
Eagle2001
2007-09-17 1:50:19 PM  
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.

/RIP Mitch
 
Shaggy_C
2007-09-17 1:52:03 PM  
Eagle2001: I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.

I'm reminded of the guy at old WWF events, waving a sign that read "I HATE SIGNS!" because they blocked his vision.
 
Kuta
2007-09-17 1:54:50 PM  
The "great" thing about having a non-conscripted armed forces is that eventually even the conservatives get pissed off at the government for getting us stuck in a quagmire. What I mean is that since our military is generally more conservative--by choice--that they feel the day to day effects of the war on terror more acutely. Never mind that the true progressives have been protesting the invasion of Iraq since before it happened, but those paying the price most dearly are finally realizing what a bunch of yahoos occupy the Oval Office.
 
RanDomino
2007-09-17 1:54:59 PM  
That, and the primary anti-war organizations (ANSWER and United for Peace and Justice) are more concerned with marches than they are with actually stopping war. It's really amazing how skilled they are at the logistics of getting 100,000 people to around for an hour at the same time in the hope that someone, somewhere, might give a shiat.

I'm much more impressed by the Port-blocking actions in Washington State earlier this year, which disrupted shipments of weapons and personnel for several days. If the anti-war movement would organize for that sort of activity (which was known as non-violent civil disobedience until recently, when people have been scared off by the possibility of being arrested), the war would actually end.
 
MindStalker
2007-09-17 2:06:45 PM  
RanDomino: If the anti-war movement would organize for that sort of activity (which was known as non-violent civil disobedience until recently, when people have been scared off by the possibility of being arrested), the war would actually end.

Na, the huge mass of protest happening constantly during the Vietnam war didn't cause it to end. It only ended because the top generals and Washington stopped playing ball with each other.
 
Crude
2007-09-17 2:09:31 PM  
thoseshirts.comView Full Size


Not impressed.
 
canyoneer
2007-09-17 2:19:47 PM  
Anyone who thinks this war will be over any time soon is smoking crack - or has only the most tenuous grip on physical reality.

energyinst.org.ukView Full Size
 
the opposite of charity is justice
2007-09-17 2:48:16 PM  
The government *loves* how the internet serves as a gigantic heatsink for population outrage.

In case some of you people haven't figured it out, the reason why mass protests in Washington get politicians' attention is that they see the very-real potential for a 500k protest to turn into 500k lynchmob. It doesnt matter how many national guardsmen or even army soldiers are present putting on a show of force, that many people will run right over armed barriers and sack the white house/congress.

50 *million* people mouthing off on the internet doesnt mean a thing.

If you want real political change you make the powerful men afraid they're close to being dead men and watch them get off their lazy asses like you lit a fire under their chair.
 
Satyagraha
2007-09-17 3:06:54 PM  
[image from alancanfora.com too old to be available]


Except the National Guard is fighting for "our" freedoms in Iraq right now so we'll have to use Blackwater


...good thing their services aren't needed any more in Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/17/iraq.main/
 
chu2dogg
2007-09-17 3:07:54 PM  
Na, the huge mass of protest happening constantly during the Vietnam war didn't cause it to end. It only ended because the top generals and Washington stopped playing ball with each other.
Actually, the Vietnam war ended when we won.

case some of you people haven't figured it out, the reason why mass protests in Washington get politicians' attention is that they see the very-real potential for a 500k protest to turn into 500k lynchmob.

After Seattle, crowd control and dispersion as been developed to an artform, without any gory battles or Kent States to showcase on T.V. Protests aimed at created civil disobedience have little to no actual value anymore.
 
arollo
2007-09-17 3:08:15 PM  
The internet has only made hippies even bigger pussies than they used to be.

Though protestors these days don't have their shiat together either. I've read articles about mass protests in D.C. where instead of one big rally, you had a hundred small rallies, protesting just about everything, from Zionism to imperialism to capitalism to imperialist zionism to people who just hate Bush, ad nauseam.

Kill all hippies. Then throw the flaming corpse onto the lawn of the white house. Now that's a sign of dissatisfaction.
 
RanDomino
2007-09-17 3:34:59 PM  
chu2dogg
Seattle

What you say possesses the attribute "truth".

Seattle is given almost religious importance among radicals, along with similar summit confrontations in Cancun (2003), Quebec (2001), and Europe (especially Genoa '01 and more recently northern Germany this summer). However, the sort of actual direct action that worked in Seattle (physically blockading the summit location) has been almost completely unattempted in the US since then. This is entirely because the Iraq occupation has siphoned too much energy into pointless marches- See the crappy response to the 2004 G8 in Savannah, Georgia.

Anti-war, anti-imperialism, and most dishearteningly anti-capitalism groups are too busy trying to increase their own power to actually be effective, which we certainly could be if we were capable of working with groups we disagree with and stopped taking every opportunity to blame eachother for everything.

It's probably Bob Avakian's fault.
 
Satyagraha
2007-09-17 3:39:11 PM  
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990
allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995
allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997
allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998
allows the government to seize all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports, and waterways.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999
allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000
allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001
allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002
designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003
allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004
allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005
allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051
specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310
grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049
assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921
allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation. General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division stated in a 1983 conference that he saw FEMA's role as a "new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis."

A Halliburton subsidiary received a $385 million contract from the Department of Homeland Security to provide "temporary detention and processing capabilities."

The contract - announced Jan. 24 by the engineering and construction firm KBR - calls for preparing for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs" in the event of other emergencies, such as "a natural disaster."


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=277826260716604258&q=FEMA&total=1745&s ta rt=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
[image from shotsacrossthebow.com too old to be available]

And we have those great free speech zones located miles from public events
 
Space_Poet
2007-09-17 3:54:30 PM  
I just want to give MoveOn a shout out. As far as protest groups go, they are very active and effective. When I joined MoveOn, it was just before the elections last year and they organized several home gatherings where you would meet at members houses in groups and work out issues and problems. Very good people from all walks of life came to my house and it seemed like we were old friends. We networked and became friends.

MoveOn is a step in the right direction for people who want to get active. They set up protests, meetings, all kinds of petitions and what not. And they seem to get under the fascists skin, so it's a good thing. I was not for the Petreaus ad, I thought it was accurate with what people are thinking, but in bad taste and easily misinterpreted, which it obviously was. I also belong to several other activist groups, it's better than doing nothing.

/Underground Hippy
//Cause we saw what they did to us last time
///Sure I'm on every list the government has, so it's not without risk
 
RanDomino
2007-09-17 4:02:41 PM  
Satyagraha, don't take this personally, but it's that sort of paranoia that gives radicals a bad name. The government is never going to do something so blatant as declare martial law and gain dictatorial powers. Effectively, it/they already have that ability- those executive orders meant nothing to me when they came out. They are nothing more than the codifying of abilities the government already has.

Some of them are totally unusable. If they decided to start 'rounding up' dissidents, there are several million people in line ahead of nothings like you and me (well, maybe only several hundred thousand in line ahead of me, but I'm still not worried about it). If they decide to 'round up' prominent leaders, their cases would likewise be too prominent for them to get away with unconstitutional shenanigans without upsetting middle America.

"What if the grocery stores closed their doors
and they flood the streets with tanks
and started martial law?"
A: they're not going to. I sincerely doubt that rank-and-file soldiers are too brainwashed by training to assist with such a crass power-grab. Anyway, the economy would collapse, and that would be a pretty stupid move by a government whose primary function is delivering profit to large corporations!

What they can do and have been doing is slow, creeping shifts (was there one day when free speech zones, which any self-respecting dissident should ignore anyway, became so widely used?), so it's more effective to assume that everything done by institutional power is insidious, and oppose them totally. When black communities were destroyed in the late 70's and 80's, did the crackers who opposed the Vietnam War say anything? No, because building interstates across neighborhoods and rearranging school districts is a lot less obvious than shooting and bombing.

So, stop panicking, and start thinking strategically.
 
RanDomino
2007-09-17 4:07:30 PM  
Space_Poet
///Sure I'm on every list the government has, so it's not without risk

No, you're not! Do you know why? Because you don't actually pose a threat to the power structure! Huey Newton was on government lists! You and I are Just Some Guy!
 
spleef420
2007-09-17 4:15:29 PM  
chu2dogg: Actually, the Vietnam war ended when we won.

we didn't actually "win" Vietnam. We (our gov't) decided that the cost outweighed the benefit and bailed.

and it was never "officially" a war...it was a "police action".
 
SpectroBoy [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2007-09-17 4:16:27 PM  
Stupid Hippie Protesters

Back in the 60s the hippies were "scary" to "the man". They represented change, chaos, and evolving public opinion.

Now when people dress up silly to protest they just look like wankers. Nobody is scared. Nobody is impressed. Most people assume they are just there for the atmosphere and bragging rights.

If todays protesters REALLY want to get Washington's collective attention they need to go in suits with signs that say "I Vote".

But it's more fun to re-live the 60s style protests isn't it?

/Morans
 
RanDomino
2007-09-17 4:17:23 PM  
SpectroBoy

EX-FARKING-ACTLY!
 
RanDomino
2007-09-17 4:21:18 PM  
except the part about voting- 100,000 voters from across the country is nothing. Especially since they probably have been voting, a fat lot of good that does. Oh, goodie, the Democrats are going to discuss ending the war, maybe be 5% less likely to bomb Iran, and still let the corporations continue to fark us and pillage the third world! That is so much better!
 
Sudlow
2007-09-17 4:46:48 PM  
SpectroBoy nailed it. The only time the government listens is when they might lose their power. If 70% of the people 18-35 voted in the next national election, you'd see the priorities in all subsequent elections change drastically.
 
CossackMossis
2007-09-17 5:14:27 PM  
So what Fark's telling me is that there's no way to even begin to subvert, change, or in any other way oppose or dismantle the entrenched, power-hungry power structure that rules over us all? That we're blessed only because we're so insignificant as to be safely ignored from the pointy, sharp ends of The Machine as it keeps creeping and lurching forward over our rights and our freedoms?

fark, I can't even disagree. But I'm just stunned that it's so thoroughly hopeless. Will it seriously take a cataclysmic economic crash/nuclear war to change it or what?
 
Satyagraha
2007-09-17 5:17:12 PM  
RanDomino: Satyagraha, don't take this personally, but it's that sort of paranoia that gives radicals a bad name. The government is never going to do something so blatant as declare martial law and gain dictatorial powers. Effectively, it/they already have that ability- those executive orders meant nothing to me when they came out. They are nothing more than the codifying of abilities the government already has

Just a reminder:
Operation North Woods (approved by the entire Joint Chiefs)
involved the attacking of United States cities by our own government. Hijacking civilian planes and crashing them and starting riots in American cities...then blaming a foreign government that wasn't responsible in order to start a war... sound somewhat familiar?
REX 84 FEMA program to suspend the constitution and place FEMA in control of the US. Oliver North and John Poindextor.

Operation Garden Plot Round up of un-named dissents in America
Operation Cable Splicer The plan to take over State and Local government by the federal government
FEMA Temporary Detention Facilities?

Of course it's always best to be prepared for everything, including imprisoning your own population.


We do not eavesdrop
We do not torture
"it's that sort of paranoia ..."


OK OKAY OKAY!

I surrender

"free speech zones, which any self-respecting dissident should ignore anyway"
guess you haven't seen the enforcement...anybody that doesn't have a pro Bush shirt or placard is either arrested or relocated to the Free Speech zone. Over 800 hundred were arrested in New York and held (bound arms and legs) for hours after violating the free speech zones. Wake up. Free speech is now limited to where "the man" says so
 
Vic Sage
2007-09-17 5:29:46 PM  
submitter: because no one gets tear-gassed

But but, they best part of a protest is watching hippies getting tear gassed!

//earliest memory is being scared of dirty hippies on the U of MD campus.
//get your protest off of me you damed dirty hippy
 
mayberebecca
2007-09-17 5:43:00 PM  
SpectroBoy: If todays protesters REALLY want to get Washington's collective attention they need to go in suits with signs that say "I Vote".
 
oldandwiser
2007-09-17 6:10:16 PM  
Start drafting all the baby farkers and then maybe they might protest.
 
Frank N Stein
2007-09-17 6:50:17 PM  
Space_Poet: I just want to give MoveOn a shout out. As far as protest groups go, they are very active and effective. When I joined MoveOn, it was just before the elections last year and they organized several home gatherings where you would meet at members houses in groups and work out issues and problems. Very good people from all walks of life came to my house and it seemed like we were old friends. We networked and became friends.

MoveOn is a step in the right direction for people who want to get active. They set up protests, meetings, all kinds of petitions and what not. And they seem to get under the fascists skin, so it's a good thing. I was not for the Petreaus ad, I thought it was accurate with what people are thinking, but in bad taste and easily misinterpreted, which it obviously was. I also belong to several other activist groups, it's better than doing nothing.

/Underground Hippy
//Cause we saw what they did to us last time
///Sure I'm on every list the government has, so it's not without risk

Meh. Moveon.org has its share of inaccurate propaganda. I remember specifically an ad that attacked Bush for not reupping the "assault weapons ban". The fact was it was congress's job to extend it. Plus, they used scary sound effects, such as rapid machine gun fire, in the back round. That gave the impression that machine guns are legal because of Bush, despite the fact that they have been banned since 35.

Plus, if you think that you're on some government list, you're a farking tool. No one cares that you're a basement protester
 
Dialectic
2007-09-17 7:19:32 PM  
Hippie #1: Hey, man...I got the new "Freedom Rock"!

Hippie #2: Well, turn it up, man!

img66.imageshack.usView Full Size
 
Hibno
2007-09-17 8:05:20 PM  
I don't think it is the Internet. I think it is the draft. The people taking to the streets were young kids worried who could have been drafted and shipped off themselves. It was personal.

Today there is no draft. If you don't want to go, you don't have to. It doesn't hit home, thus, there is less outrage.

Plus, there were a whole slew of other factors in the 1960s that are not present today. You can't isolate the Internet as the single biggest factor in the lack of public demonstration against the Iraq war. Maybe it plays a small part, but it is hard to say that it is more significant than most other reasons.
 
RanDomino
2007-09-18 12:41:40 PM  
CossackMossis
So what Fark's telling me is that there's no way to even begin to subvert, change, or in any other way oppose or dismantle the entrenched, power-hungry power structure that rules over us all?

No, and in fact the most direct opposition is often the most effective. Land distribution insane, lots of hungry people? Guerrilla garden. Corporate food distribution creating waste? Dumpster. Youth angry but lacking societal analysis? Provide some. Worried about GMO crops? Hey, the laws are created by and for the enemy. Just make sure you have a plan for whatever you do and we have a chance.


Satyagraha
Just a reminder:

And guess what? None of that happened.


guess you haven't seen the enforcement...anybody that doesn't have a pro Bush shirt or placard is either arrested or relocated to the Free Speech zone. Over 800 hundred were arrested in New York and held (bound arms and legs) for hours after violating the free speech zones. Wake up. Free speech is now limited to where "the man" says so

Yeah, I have seen the enforcement, and, like I said, you have to be strategic. The police are not invincible or omnipotent. New York '04 failed for a variety of reasons- Police competence was not one of them.

Example to consider: The police will not attempt a mass arrest until they have overwhelming numerical superiority at that location. However, police will usually be massively outnumbered overall at an event/action. So they have to arrest piecemeal, giving time for actions and escape. The risk is that they'll go into Rodney King Mode, but being beaten and maced is preferable to being arrested.

I have seen plenty of unpermitted actions be very effective, even when there is a substantial police presence.
 
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