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(Wall Street Journal)   The ACLU chapter that sued a coach for praying, calling it "inherently coercive," now wants the same school to install Muslim footbaths in the restrooms. It's not religious because secular people could wash their feet too, you see   (opinionjournal.com) divider line
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869 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Aug 2007 at 2:48 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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OlafTheBent
2007-08-20 11:31:59 AM  
Please keep your religion (pick any of them) out of my school/workplace.

... and don't move somewhere expecting them to accomodate your every whim. You're the outsider, remember.

If you don't like it, move back.
 
kabloink [TotalFark]
2007-08-20 11:38:19 AM  
Just like the bible history/study classes being pushed by Christians aren't religious.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-08-20 11:38:44 AM  
submitter: It's not religious because secular people could wash their feet too, you see

Riiight. I'm sure Muslims would have no problems sharing their footbaths with infidels.
 
Mordant
2007-08-20 11:41:28 AM  
Don't wash your feet, submitter. The stench of rotting cheese is one of your better qualities as compared to your intelligence or personality.
 
R.A.Danny
2007-08-20 11:42:49 AM  
Don't all people want to read the all time best selling book?

Sorry ACLU, it's all or nothing.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-08-20 11:45:56 AM  
Mordant: The stench of rotting cheese is one of your better qualities as compared to your intelligence or personality.

LOL. Someone could submit a headline reading "Today is Monday" and someone else like you would reflexively post in the thread accusing him of being an idiot.

But tell me, insults about foot odor aside, what you so strongly disagree with here?
 
kronicfeld
2007-08-20 11:46:40 AM  
Making something available for general use is not at all the same thing as government-led prayer. A better comparison here would be purchasing Bibles and books about Christianity or Judaism in order to make them available for students to read and check out from the school library, which is of course completely legitimate.
 
Guy Innagorillasuit
2007-08-20 11:48:07 AM  
It would be less like apples and oranges if the coach lead footbathing before every game.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-08-20 11:48:24 AM  
kronicfeld: Making something available for general use is not at all the same thing as government-led prayer.

Yeah--it's just a convenient reason to go ahead and fulfill the need for footbaths, given that so many other people have been asking for them for so long.
 
kronicfeld
2007-08-20 11:52:51 AM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin: Yeah--it's just a convenient reason to go ahead and fulfill the need for footbaths, given that so many other people have been asking for them for so long.

Who cares who's asking for them?

Here's an example: public school builds a chapel primarily in response to students and parents complaining loudly that the students don't have anywhere to hold church services. The chapel also ends up being used for non-religious functions, such as speakers, school choir concerts, etc, despite the fact that other facilities for such programs already existed on campus, and no one was asking for new ones.

Would that be violative of the first amendment? Not in the least.
 
kingMountain
2007-08-20 11:58:37 AM  
ah it went green. now the issue will be sorted out in no time.
 
Weaver95
2007-08-20 12:01:21 PM  
No problem - just put a baptismal font in the locker room and we're even steven.

yeesh. the ACLU can go from 'useful' to 'complete idiot' in under 10 seconds. I mean, i'm sure there's a method to their madness, but a little more consistancy sure would be nice.
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:07:15 PM  
Hey, if there's a basin on the floor and it contains water, I'm going to go ahead and assume it's a chamber pot.

If someone wants to wash their feet in yellow water, dodging intestinal Snickers bars, they can go right ahead.
 
kronicfeld
2007-08-20 12:08:37 PM  
Weaver95: I mean, i'm sure there's a method to their madness, but a little more consistancy sure would be nice.

The national ACLU is made up of local/regional chapters, which is naturally going to lead to some inconsistency in terms of, first, priority, but second, interpretation of nuanced and highly fact-specific situations.
 
Gecko Gingrich
2007-08-20 12:09:18 PM  
Weaver95: No problem - just put a baptismal font in the locker room and we're even steven.

Only if I can use it, without complaint, to drink from or baptize my cat into the religion of Satanism.
 
Weaver95
2007-08-20 12:10:38 PM  
kronicfeld: The national ACLU is made up of local/regional chapters, which is naturally going to lead to some inconsistency in terms of, first, priority, but second, interpretation of nuanced and highly fact-specific situations.

Translation: some people in the ACLU are just plain assholes with law degrees.

The national chapter should set stricter guidelines. The organization apparently needs better direction.
 
sailorman_glh
2007-08-20 12:10:48 PM  
If it looks like a bidet, it'll be used like a bidet
 
kingMountain
2007-08-20 12:11:18 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: Only if I can use it, without complaint, to drink from or baptize my cat into the religion of Satanism.

but what if i want to baptize my saint into catinism?
 
Gecko Gingrich
2007-08-20 12:11:48 PM  
kingMountain: but what if i want to baptize my saint into catinism?

Ha!
 
kronicfeld
2007-08-20 12:12:50 PM  
Weaver95: Translation: some people in the ACLU are just plain assholes with law degrees.

You need a better English-to-Enlgish translator.
 
Quick1
2007-08-20 12:13:35 PM  
Usually I loathe to defend any religious stuff, but I don't really see a problem here. The coach leading the prayer is an authority figure, and as such, it is implied that you should participate. No one is forcing anyone to participate in foot washing, and unlike prayer led by someone, it actually isn't terrible for atheists or people of differing religions to use.
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:14:19 PM  
Weaver95: The national chapter should set stricter guidelines. The organization apparently needs better direction.

Yeah, it does.

The ACLU's stance has been "No religion in schools."

No prayer time, even if people can use it to pray or not pray as they see fit.

It's like the Georgia chapter of the KKK allowing blacks into the organization.
 
Quick1
2007-08-20 12:14:27 PM  
sailorman_glh: If it looks like a bidet, it'll be used like a bidet

This.
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:15:49 PM  
Quick1: No one is forcing anyone to participate in foot washing, and unlike prayer led by someone, it actually isn't terrible for atheists or people of differing religions to use.

So, you'd have no problem with having a confessional booth in schools that people would be free to use to study in quiet when the priest wasn't taking confession?
 
Guy Innagorillasuit
2007-08-20 12:17:54 PM  
SchlingFo: No prayer time, even if people can use it to pray or not pray as they see fit.

They've already got that time, it's just not called prayer time, it's called "the whole day".
 
albo
2007-08-20 12:18:07 PM  
kronicfeld: Making something available for general use is not at all the same thing as government-led prayer

yeah, but come on--in what part of average american culture are footbaths used by teenagers, or by any one? they're for religious purposes and will be used solely for that in real life, let's be honest. it's an end run
 
Weaver95
2007-08-20 12:19:29 PM  
kronicfeld: Weaver95: Translation: some people in the ACLU are just plain assholes with law degrees.

You need a better English-to-Enlgish translator.

I'll go find an 'enlgish' translation script. It's a fairly obscure language, so I might have problems finding one. I'll get right on that tho. You bet'cha!
 
keylock71
2007-08-20 12:19:43 PM  
Some people will just use any excuse to bash the ACLU, I guess...

Not seeing the big deal really on either of these issues. Dearborn has a a large percentage of musilims. That's a fact. How is providing a place to wash their feet (besides the sinks where others wash their hands and faces.) different then schools providing kosher meals where there is a large percentage of Jewish folks or having chapels in the Student Union?
 
Weaver95
2007-08-20 12:21:17 PM  
albo: yeah, but come on--in what part of average american culture are footbaths used by teenagers, or by any one? they're for religious purposes and will be used solely for that in real life, let's be honest. it's an end run

Of course it's an end run. And kronicfeld knows it. But he's not gonna admit it. I think he'd rather cut out his own entrails with a spoon than admit that the ACLU makes mistakes.

Ah well. Just lay back and enjoy the doublethink.
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:22:15 PM  
Weaver95: I think he'd rather cut out his own entrails with a spoon than admit that the ACLU makes mistakes.

Actually, it's worse than that. He'd have to admit that the lawyers are trying to fark the system as well.

That's a double-whammy.
 
Gecko Gingrich
2007-08-20 12:22:18 PM  
SchlingFo: The ACLU's stance has been "No religion in schools."

O'RLY?
 
Feel_the_velvet
2007-08-20 12:23:24 PM  
I agreed with the sentiment of TFA until I read this:

..was motivated primarily "by health and safety" because some students didn't like washing their hands in the sinks after others students had washed their feet

Um, throw some footbaths in there. Let's keep the sinks for the hands.
 
MisterTweak
2007-08-20 12:23:40 PM  
Hey, what goes better together than religion and homoerotic "male bonding"?
 
chimp_ninja
2007-08-20 12:24:54 PM  
The analogy to the school providing kosher (or vegan, for a secular equivalent) options in the cafeteria is the apt one. Non-issue-- it's a service that some students want.

Note that the ACLU didn't object to students praying on their own. They objected to state employees in a position of authority leading the team in prayer.
 
TheDumbBlonde
2007-08-20 12:25:12 PM  
Don't they have footbaths at home? Go home and wash your freaking feet. Too far? There's hose back out, Mohmmaed.
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:25:12 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: O'RLY?

Well, up until this point, it has been.

Apparently, if it's Muslim religion, then it's alright to give it school and taxpayer support.

Who here thinks it would be appropriate for schools to have a Catholic confessional that can be used by other students for studying when the priest isn't taking confession?
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:26:25 PM  
Feel_the_velvet: Um, throw some footbaths in there. Let's keep the sinks for the hands.

How about just tell students they're not allowed to wash their feet in the sinks.

The little shiats can wait until they get home.
 
Gecko Gingrich
2007-08-20 12:26:38 PM  
SchlingFo: Well, up until this point, it has been.

Again, I ask, "O'RLY?".
 
kingMountain
2007-08-20 12:26:51 PM  
SchlingFo: Who here thinks it would be appropriate for schools to have a Catholic confessional that can be used by other students for studying when the priest isn't taking confession?

you do realize it would turn into the j/o closet in about five minutes, right?
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:27:49 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: Again, I ask, "O'RLY?".

Yeah, and I answered.
 
albo
2007-08-20 12:28:20 PM  
schools need a chicken pen for those santeria students, and any other students, who need a quick sacrifice before prayers.
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:28:24 PM  
kingMountain: you do realize it would turn into the j/o closet in about five minutes, right?

And the footbaths are going to turn into urinals in about five minutes.
 
PirateKing [OhFark]
2007-08-20 12:29:33 PM  
This goes way beyond normal accomodation. It's one thing to bend a no-hat policy to allow yarmulkes or hijabs, or to excuse students from changing in gym class, or from participating in certain activities due to their religion. No harm is done to anyone, and nobody is disadvantaged or inconvenienced.

But forcing the school to make major material changes --

WAIT!!

I read the article before finishing this, and realize now that it's just trollbaiting.

If Failmitter had actually bothered to READ the farking editorial, he or she would have seen that the University voluntarily placed the footbaths, and this douchenozzle at the WSJ's editoral office can't get his panties untwisted about it.

The ACLU said they were NOT getting involved, because nobody's rights have been infringed.

NOBODY has been forced to do anything.

Does it infringe your religious rights to use a bathroom that has a footbath in the corner?

I started out on the side of the submitter, before I actually read the article.

Submitter, you fail so greatly I don't have a picture for you.

But believe me, it's truly EPIC. I suggest you nail your ear to a wall.
 
albo
2007-08-20 12:29:57 PM  
chimp_ninja: Non-issue-- it's a service that some students want.

it doesn't work that way. just because the majority wants something that would violate a constitution precept such as division of church and state doesn't mean we give it to them.
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:31:18 PM  
PirateKing: This goes way beyond normal accomodation. It's one thing to bend a no-hat policy to allow yarmulkes or hijabs, or to excuse students from changing in gym class, or from participating in certain activities due to their religion. No harm is done to anyone, and nobody is disadvantaged or inconvenienced.

But forcing the school to make major material changes --

WAIT!!

I read the article before finishing this, and realize now that it's just trollbaiting.

If Failmitter had actually bothered to READ the farking editorial, he or she would have seen that the University voluntarily placed the footbaths, and this douchenozzle at the WSJ's editoral office can't get his panties untwisted about it.

The ACLU said they were NOT getting involved, because nobody's rights have been infringed.

NOBODY has been forced to do anything.

Does it infringe your religious rights to use a bathroom that has a footbath in the corner?

I started out on the side of the submitter, before I actually read the article.

Submitter, you fail so greatly I don't have a picture for you.

But believe me, it's truly EPIC. I suggest you nail your ear to a wall.

Nobody was forced to do anything when the coaches had the prayer. They could've simply sat off to the side, read a book, stretched out, whatever.
 
kronicfeld
2007-08-20 12:31:31 PM  
Kosher meals - or Good Friday menus, for the Christians - are another good analogy.
 
Gecko Gingrich
2007-08-20 12:31:39 PM  
SchlingFo: Yeah, and I answered.

Try again.

This is not a new stance. I can, if you'd like, provide any number of links to cases where the ACLU argued *on the behalf of* a student or teacher whose right to express their religion (often Christianity) in a public school was infringed.
 
MisterTweak
2007-08-20 12:32:26 PM  
albo: schools need a chicken pen for those santeria students, and any other students, who need a quick sacrifice before prayers.

If we combine this with SchlingFo's suggestion of putting in a confessional, then we can call it a school lunch program where students can choke their chicken in private while praying to Jesus, FSM, whatever. Toss a first-aid kit in and there's some health education money in it too.
 
SchlingFo
2007-08-20 12:32:46 PM  
kronicfeld: Kosher meals - or Good Friday menus, for the Christians - are another good analogy.

And, again, something that doesn't belong in schools.

You choose the school menu according to health and nutrition guidelines.

If the students have religious restrictions on their diets, they'll have to bring their food from home to accomodate that.
 
chimp_ninja
2007-08-20 12:34:05 PM  
albo: it doesn't work that way. just because the majority wants something that would violate a constitution precept such as division of church and state doesn't mean we give it to them.

Are you out there protesting Kosher options in cafeterias? There's no secular purpose to that.
 
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