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(Yahoo)   Jonah Goldberg: "We test immigrants before they can vote; why not everyone else?" Huff Post: "Jonah Goldberg endorses Jim Crow and slavery. And he eats puppies, too"   (news.yahoo.com) divider line
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837 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Aug 2007 at 3:37 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2007-08-01 11:59:48 AM  
Seems like quite a few Huff Post greenlights are going through lately... who are these people?
 
2007-08-01 12:00:08 PM  
I used to work in a residential facility for mentally retarded adults. Most were profoundly retarded.

Not 'disenfranchizing' them, they were trotted out to the local Town Hall when elections came around, exercising their rights as adults.

People with the IQ of 5 year olds, unable to care for themselve, making uninformed choices about the direction of society. I objected and was castigated by the Powers-that-Be within the organization.

Best case scenario: Their random vote negated a perfectly informed choice of another citizen.

Worst case scenario: The care-taker in charge tells their wards who to vote for, thus 'ballot-box stuffing' (I know for a fact this happened where I was).

I have no problem with a general citizenship test. It is irresponsible to do otherwise, IMHO.
 
2007-08-01 12:03:01 PM  
rocinante721

I think if someone is committed they shouldn't be able to vote. That's reasonable.

But when you start restricting the franchise with tests it only EVER ends badly.
 
2007-08-01 12:04:18 PM  
The Doughy Pantload strikes again
 
2007-08-01 12:04:40 PM  
Cripple fight!
 
2007-08-01 12:05:00 PM  
The old Supreme Court didn't allow tests for voting rights, but this new one might.
 
2007-08-01 12:05:15 PM  
Completely level the playing field, and have earned citizenship. It wouldn't matter if your family came over on the Mayflower or a '57 Chevy from Cuba, you'd have to ask what you could do for this country before asking what this country can do for you.
 
2007-08-01 12:05:44 PM  
rocinante721: perfectly informed choice of another citizen.

I think you're vastly overestimating the number of those that exist.
 
2007-08-01 12:06:44 PM  
It's your civic duty NOT to vote if you're uninformed.
 
2007-08-01 12:08:16 PM  
As is typical, Jonah's not thought through his latest Cunning Plan. Testing might not be a bad idea as elsewhere it was pointed out that 60% of Fox viewers have serious misconceptions about reality, far out-fantasizing the rest of the population.
 
2007-08-01 12:08:36 PM  
kronicfeld: rocinante721: perfectly informed choice of another citizen.I think you're vastly overestimating the number of those that exist.

One is all it takes.

I saw the abuse, and it pisses me off.
 
2007-08-01 12:11:50 PM  
I can't believe that we're having to explain something as axiomatic as 'why you can't restrict the franchise' in the 21st century. I feel a bit as if someone has asked 'do you fall off of the edge when you get to the end of the world'. But here goes.

If you decide to restrict the franchise, some group gets to decide to whom it is restricted and how. These will be the people that are allowed to vote, or some subset of them. It is inevitable that these people will not act in the interests of those outside the franchise. In other words people will be subject to laws which they do not have any role in approving.

We call this slavery or occupation or a dictatorship. None of these are good.

The point is that even if you vote for someone stupid you still get to vote and be the victim of your own stupidity, not the victim of someone else's view of what's best for you.

Much of america are freely exercising their rights to be victims of their own stupid voting right now.
 
2007-08-01 12:12:05 PM  
Considering the general literacy level displayed on right-wing blogs, I'm in favor of voting tests and look forward to the obsolescence of the Republican Party shortly afterwards.
 
2007-08-01 12:12:46 PM  
One is all it takes.

I saw the abuse, and it pisses me off.


the solution to abuse of the democratic system is not to destroy it.
 
2007-08-01 12:15:36 PM  
Tigger: I can't believe that we're having to explain something as axiomatic as 'why you can't restrict the franchise' in the 21st century.

Really? You should pop into some of the creationism or civil rights-related threads. People are farking retarded out there, especially about anything involving civics, civil liberties and history.
 
2007-08-01 12:16:32 PM  
flaEsq

I think Jonah's idea of a test involves how much money you have and how loyal you are to Israel.
 
2007-08-01 12:21:11 PM  
Tigger: One is all it takes.I saw the abuse, and it pisses me off.the solution to abuse of the democratic system is not to destroy it.

Non-citizens can't vote. They take a test to become citizens.

Maybe we should redefine what citizenship is? So all who can have a participatory responsibility.

Service guarantees citizenship.

stardestroyer.netView Full Size
 
2007-08-01 12:22:47 PM  
Marcus Aurelius: flaEsqI think Jonah's idea of a test involves how much money you have and how loyal you are to Israel.

Anti-Godwin, FTW!
 
2007-08-01 12:24:52 PM  
Maybe we should redefine what citizenship is? So all who can have a participatory responsibility.,,

The point, made so much more eloquently by Rousseau than myself, is that if you are subject to a law then you are by definition participating anyway. You can't have people be subject to laws that they aren't involved in crafting.

But I guess we're tossing out this principle along with the rest of that embarassing hiccup of progress The Enlightenmnt.
 
2007-08-01 12:31:09 PM  
This would not help republicans.
 
2007-08-01 12:40:20 PM  
going back to the source, goldberg says what a lot of farkers on various sides of the political aisle say every day:

"erhaps cheapening the vote by requiring little more than an active pulse (Chicago famously waives this rule) has turned it into something many people don't value. Maybe the emphasis on getting more people to vote has dumbed down our democracy by pushing participation onto people uninterested in such things. Maybe our society would be healthier if politicians aimed higher than the lowest common denominator.
 
2007-08-01 12:46:27 PM  
Tigger
The point, made so much more eloquently by Rousseau than myself, is that if you are subject to a law then you are by definition participating anyway. You can't have people be subject to laws that they aren't involved in crafting.


Children and non-citizens are subject to laws they aren't involved in crafting.
 
2007-08-01 12:49:33 PM  
Sleeping Monkey: This would not help republicans.

Nor democrats either, doubt many of the illegals would be able to pass the test. It would really hamper the dead from voting.
 
2007-08-01 12:53:01 PM  
The piece in question...


Too uninformed to vote?, by Jonah Goldberg ~ July 31, 2007

We test immigrants before they can go to the polls; why not everyone else?

Can you name all three branches of government? Can you name even one? Do you know who your congressman is? Your senators? Do you even know how many senators each state gets? If you know the answers to these questions (and you probably do because you're a newspaper reader), you're in the minority.

In fact, the data have long been settled. A very high percentage of the U.S. electorate isn't very well qualified to vote, if by "qualified" you mean having a basic understanding of our government, its functions and its challenges. Almost half of the American public doesn't know that each state gets two senators. More than two-thirds can't explain the gist of what the Food and Drug Administration does.

Now, the point isn't to say that the American people are stupid, which is the typical knee-jerk reaction of self- absorbed political junkies. Rather, it's that millions of Americans just don't care about politics, much the same way that I don't care about cricket: They think it's boring. Ask me how cricket works and I'm likely to respond with the same blank, uncomprehending stare my old basset hound used to give me when I asked him to chase a Frisbee. Ask the typical American to explain, say, what a cloture vote is, and you'll get the same.

And yet, even to suggest that maybe some people just shouldn't vote is considered the height of un-Americanism. Indeed, as economist Bryan Caplan notes in his bracing new book, "The Myth of the Rational Voter," there are few subjects on which Americans are more dogmatic and ideological.

Consider the hoary cliche, attributed to Democratic New York Gov. Al Smith in 1928: "All the ills of democracy can be cured by more democracy." As Caplan notes, this means that no evidence of any nature can ever, under any circumstances, be held against democracy: "A person who said, 'All the ills of the markets can be cured by more markets' would be lampooned as the worst sort of market fundamentalist. Why the double standard?"

One response is that democracy is at the core of our secular faith. But surely even democracy voluptuaries can appreciate that faith-based ideologies can be taken too far. We do not let children vote, yet no serious person would argue that our democratic values are significantly undermined because we bar 10-year-olds from the voting booth.

Voter turnout fanatics concerned with more than mere aggrandizement for the Democratic Party argue that voting is of itself a sign of civic health. But doesn't it matter why you vote?

Last summer, an Arizona activist went so far as to propose that every voter be enrolled in a state lottery, on the assumption that what our political system really lacks is more voters who need to be bribed with lottery tickets.

Some more serious people suggest that voting should be mandatory, believing that if the "disenfranchised" -- often code for dream Democratic voters -- cast ballots, the country would move profoundly to the left. John Kenneth Galbraith proclaimed in 1986: "If everybody in this country voted, the Democrats would be in for the next 100 years."

This last bit is almost certainly false. The evidence is that if every eligible voter voted, national elections would probably remain unchanged. "Simply put," political scientists Benjamin Highton and Raymond Wolfinger wrote in their 2001 article, "The Political Implications of Higher Turnout," in the British Journal of Political Science, U.S. "voters' preferences differ minimally from those of all citizens; outcomes would not change if everyone voted."

S o, maybe, just maybe, we have our priorities wrong. Perhaps cheapening the vote by requiring little more than an active pulse (Chicago famously waives this rule) has turned it into something many people don't value. Maybe the emphasis on getting more people to vote has dumbed-down our democracy by pushing participation onto people uninterested in such things. Maybe our society would be healthier if politicians aimed higher than the lowest common denominator. Maybe the opinions of people who don't know the first thing about how our system works aren't the folks who should be driving our politics, just as people who don't know how to drive shouldn't have a driver's license.

Instead of making it easier to vote, maybe we should be making it harder. Why not test people about the basic functions of government? Immigrants have to pass a test to vote; why not all citizens?

A voting test would point the arrow of civic engagement up, instead of down, sending the signal that becoming an informed citizen is a valued accomplishment. And if that's not a good enough reason, maybe this is: If you threaten to take the vote away from the certifiably uninformed, voter turnout will almost certainly get a boost.

I agree with every word of it... 100%.
 
2007-08-01 12:53:02 PM  
Children and non-citizens are subject to laws they aren't involved in crafting.

oh lord.

children are subject to laws because they are minors. the concept of majority and adulthood has absolutely no bearing on this.

non-citizens can return to the country of their citizenship at any time.
 
2007-08-01 1:04:23 PM  
More than two-thirds can't explain the gist of what the Food and Drug Administration does.

You mean what the FDA does now? Or what it did before Goldberg's neocon retards started hamstringing the government's regulatory agencies on behalf of their corporate overlords?
 
2007-08-01 1:09:54 PM  
I think if you're on welfare, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.
 
2007-08-01 1:10:36 PM  
Weaver95: I think if you're on welfare, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Why do you think that?
 
2007-08-01 1:10:48 PM  
Tigger: oh lord.

children are subject to laws because they are minors. the concept of majority and adulthood has absolutely no bearing on this.

non-citizens can return to the country of their citizenship at any time.


You're deliberately avoiding the point.

You're saying that by restricting the franchise, you're preventing a certain group from being involved in making the laws that affect them.

By restricting the franchise to adults and citizens, you're preventing minors and non-citizens from participating. It's exactly what you were complaining about, you simply agree that these groups shouldn't be able to participate.


And some of us think the ignorant are another group that shouldn't get a say. Where children can grow up, non-citizens can either become citizens or go home, the ignorant can always learn. It's a group no one has to belong to except by their own choice.
 
2007-08-01 1:14:52 PM  
Tigger
>>Children and non-citizens are subject to laws they aren't involved in crafting.
oh lord.
children are subject to laws because they are minors. the concept of majority and adulthood has absolutely no bearing on this.
non-citizens can return to the country of their citizenship at any time.


You said, and I quote:

The point, made so much more eloquently by Rousseau than myself, is that if you are subject to a law then you are by definition participating anyway. You can't have people be subject to laws that they aren't involved in crafting.

So, apparently you can have people subject to laws they aren't involved in crafting, as long as they are minors, or are able to return to their country of origin. Do you believe there to be other limitations as well? It's no fun to argue when the definition of "people" is subject to change.
 
2007-08-01 1:18:03 PM  
Good grief.

Minors are subject to laws because they are minors. It's not a restriction of the franchise - when they hit 18 they can vote.

secondly non-citizens are voluntarily here. they can return home and vote there. they are not stateless.

don't take it up with me go and read Rousseau or countless other political philosophers who worked this out. It's not hard.

seriously this is axiomatic.
 
2007-08-01 1:20:16 PM  
It's a group no one has to belong to except by their own choice.

The point.

And I'll explain it again. Is who gets to determine what ignorance is.

Where it me I would say that ignorance of some of the basic premises of political philosophy from the Enlightenment - premises which were the very founding basis of this country - would be a requirement to vote.

But those who are ignorant of these things probably disagree. No one ever agrees that the country would be better off if they personally weren't allowed to vote.
 
2007-08-01 1:23:22 PM  
Tigger: Good grief.

Minors are subject to laws because they are minors. It's not a restriction of the franchise - when they hit 18 they can vote.


That's a restriction of the franchise. They can't vote until they're 18. By definition, restriction.


secondly non-citizens are voluntarily here. they can return home and vote there. they are not stateless.

So? How is this at all relevant to the fact that they are affected by the laws of the state they happen to currently be in, and yet have no say in determining those laws?


don't take it up with me go and read Rousseau or countless other political philosophers who worked this out. It's not hard.

seriously this is axiomatic.


No, it isn't. All you're showing is that you have some restrictions on the franchise you agree with, and some you don't. And you're steadfastly refusing to give any reason why your restrictions are the only "good" ones, or why restricting it based on ignorance is a "bad" one.

Like I said, anyone who wants to vote can learn enough to pass the test. It's a restriction one can only be affected by voluntarily.
 
2007-08-01 1:24:07 PM  
Tigger: secondly non-citizens are voluntarily here. they can return home and vote there. they are not stateless.

Refugees?
 
2007-08-01 1:25:30 PM  
Refugees?

become citizens eventually.

morally speaking should be immediate. grey area.
 
2007-08-01 1:26:29 PM  
Besides the fact that Jonah Goldberg's a douchebag, he does make a valid point: Many Americans are ignorant of what their votes mean and make choices based on incorrect information. Why is this? Maybe because since the 1960's, the educational system in this country has been lowballed, neglected, marginalized, and cross-purposed as a tool for anti-drug propaganda so that the only people coming out of the k-12 system with a farking clue are the minority of people who can actually answer the questions in Goldberg's doucheist test. He's right. People don't care. Why should they? The system is broken and they know it.

In Australia (correct me if I'm wrong but I heard this somewhere), you're required by law to vote. But their school system makes ours look like the prison planet in Alien 3. If that racially diverse country mostly run by loud white people can do it, why can't we? If we fixed the schools, and by that I mean don't stack the halls with I'm OK/You're OK liberal hacks, we might just have a crack at sitting at the grownups' table for the next century.
 
2007-08-01 1:29:01 PM  
Tigger: The point.

And I'll explain it again. Is who gets to determine what ignorance is.

Where it me I would say that ignorance of some of the basic premises of political philosophy from the Enlightenment - premises which were the very founding basis of this country - would be a requirement to vote.

But those who are ignorant of these things probably disagree. No one ever agrees that the country would be better off if they personally weren't allowed to vote.


First, it'd be a group deciding what has to be known, which would average out and simplify the expectations.

Second, so what? Anyone can go learn whatever that group decides must be known. Visit a local library, bone up on it for a couple days, problem solved. It'd only negatively affect those who steadfastly refuse to learn, and those people are people I think shouldn't have a say in who determines policy.


And you're still ignoring that your general comments apply just as much to the laws preventing minors and non-citizens from voting. They're arbitrary restrictions, and those who are kept from voting by means of them have no say in changing those restrictions, and those with the power to vote don't want to dilute their power by giving them the right to.

It is no different, save that you like those restrictions, and not others. And frankly, ignorance makes a hell of a better measure than age. I'd rather see smart, well-educated 15 year olds voting, than 40 year old ignorant hicks who always vote for whoever's the rep for "their" party, even if he's campaigned on a platform centred on kicking puppies.
 
2007-08-01 1:29:02 PM  
you're steadfastly refusing to give any reason why your restrictions are the only "good" ones, or why restricting it based on ignorance is a "bad" one.



Can you cite one incidence in the entire history of mankind in which restricting the franchise has been good for both those within and without the franchise.

I am astonished that this is even a debate. It's like meeting someone who thinks the earth is flat.
 
2007-08-01 1:32:46 PM  
Tigger: Can you cite one incidence in the entire history of mankind in which restricting the franchise has been good for both those within and without the franchise.

I am astonished that this is even a debate. It's like meeting someone who thinks the earth is flat.


Restricting minors, since kids don't know enough, in general, to make an informed choice. In theory, best for kids, too, since adults know what's best for them.

Restricting non-citizens, since they may be more interested in benefiting someone other than the country in question. Not really much benefit to them, however.

You've already said you like and agree with those restrictions. You're just failing to grasp that there's no functional difference between them and any other restriction.
 
2007-08-01 1:35:07 PM  
Did illiterate voters rape Jonah Goldberg's puppy? Seriously that's some messed up shiat he's spewing there.

Of course, I would have thought small government conservatives would be open to MORE people voting and excercing their constitutionally protected rights, not less.
 
2007-08-01 1:35:11 PM  
You've already said you like and agree with those restrictions. You're just failing to grasp that there's no functional difference between them and any other restriction.

If a knowledge of the principles of this country were a requirement you would be outside the franchise. Are you OK with that?
 
2007-08-01 1:35:29 PM  
Weaver95: I think if you're on welfare, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

That's a nice jig you got there , where'd you get it? Reel Life? Tackle R Us? Billy Bob's House of Lures?
 
2007-08-01 1:36:34 PM  
the idea that 'people grow up' is inherently different from 'some adults are treated differently in the eyes of the law than others'.

the raging unconstitionality of restricting the franchise is something we haven't discussed yet.
 
2007-08-01 1:37:25 PM  
Thorak: You're just failing to grasp that there's no functional difference between them and any other restriction.

As an example, change the age restriction to a tested education restriction.

The age restriction is mostly about kids, in general, not knowing enough to know what's best for them or others. It's an education and knowledge issue, determined by age for simplicity's sake. Also, because at the time it was made, it was assumed any normal adult would, in the course of their life, pursue rational thought as a goal, and learn enough to be informed.

That has not turned out to be true. So, change the restriction, and make it based on what the issue really is; knowledge of the system and the candidates's stances. I see no reason why a brilliant 16 year old who's well-educated in political science shouldn't have a vote, and someone with a mental illness and an intellectual level of a 5 year old does have one, just because he's seen enough winters pass by.
 
2007-08-01 1:39:37 PM  
Oh dear me.

the point is that once outside the franchise people have no impact on the political process. those inside the franchise have no reason not to abuse their power, because there are no consequences. what starts as a nice idea turns into one group of people deciding what's best for another.

it doesn't work for the same reason communism doesn't work.
 
2007-08-01 1:39:38 PM  
stjohn: Many Americans are ignorant of what their votes mean and make choices based on incorrect information.

You make the same ignorant choices based on incorrect information waking up, eating breakfast, going to work, or buying gas. It's called "bounded rationality". For every liberal that believes that voting for Candidate A will result in greater enthanol subsidies which will in turn reduce greehouse emissions, there's a conservative that votes for Candidate B because she like's his "Christian Values."
 
2007-08-01 1:40:14 PM  
Tigger: If a knowledge of the principles of this country were a requirement you would be outside the franchise. Are you OK with that?

I'm outside the American franchise anyway. However, your understanding of the "principles of this country" is flawed, since you're only repeating the wording, without understanding the intent or implications.


the idea that 'people grow up' is inherently different from 'some adults are treated differently in the eyes of the law than others'.

the raging unconstitionality of restricting the franchise is something we haven't discussed yet.


The franchise is already restricted. We're just debating the means by which it should be restricted. That's what you don't get.
 
2007-08-01 1:41:10 PM  
Mighty_Dog: I agree with every word of it... 100%.

movieactors.comView Full Size


He's shocked too.
 
2007-08-01 1:42:33 PM  
Tigger: the raging unconstitionality of restricting the franchise is something we haven't discussed yet.

nobody, including goldberg, is seriously thinking that would actually happen or would indeed be a good thing or a constitutional thing. it is raised as a point to address the other, underlying issues of our voting system and the democracy we have.

my point has always been it's good that people don't want to vote. that generally means their lives are good and they don't see a burning need to change things in the country. let them be lotus eaters, that's fine, we can have a portion of the population be slackers.
 
2007-08-01 1:42:42 PM  
Tigger: Oh dear me.

the point is that once outside the franchise people have no impact on the political process. those inside the franchise have no reason not to abuse their power, because there are no consequences. what starts as a nice idea turns into one group of people deciding what's best for another.


Much like adults decide what's best for children, and citizens decide what's best for non-citizens while they're in the citizen's country.

The franchise is already restricted. If any person is not allowed to vote, for any reason whatsoever, the franchise is restricted.

We're not debating whether restricting the franchise is "okay". You've agreed it is okay. We're debating what those restrictions on the franchise should be.
 
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