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(Wall Street Journal)   Third-party candidates never win, and 2008 will be no different. Ralph Nader, Pat Buchanan, Michael Bloomberg and Ross Perot stomp off, muttering   (opinionjournal.com) divider line
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251 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Jun 2007 at 4:06 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



44 Comments     (+0 »)
 
2007-06-27 3:36:44 PM  
Outside of Sens. Joe Lieberman and Bernie Sanders--the latter a socialist who runs with the complete acquiescence of the Democratic Party--there are no third-party members in Congress.

pageaday.comView Full Size


This guy either doesn't know what "acquiescence" means or he's a complete nutjob. Considering this is the WSJ editorial page, I'd say it's a toss-up.

Seriously, what are the Democrats supposed to do? Not let Sanders run as an Independent? How does that work?
 
2007-06-27 3:52:35 PM  
Another high quality piece of "journalism" from the Slopinion Journal.

Pity it's not long for this world with Rupert "Red China" Murdoch chumping at the bit.
 
2007-06-27 3:53:35 PM  
Seriously, what are the Democrats supposed to do? Not let Sanders run as an Independent? How does that work

it sounds like they're saying that the party in his home state have stepped aside and don't challenge him with a candidate, since he probably ends up voting the way they would like him too.
 
2007-06-27 3:56:14 PM  
third parties rise around a leader, then collapse when the leader moves on, because the people are attracted to the party by the leader or the temporary issue. after that, the third party can't sustain itself or tears apart over platform (see perot's reform party). it's not a conspiracy or anything--it's just natural
 
2007-06-27 4:08:59 PM  
If he couldn't do it....


[image from eyeglasseswarehouse.com too old to be available]
 
2007-06-27 4:09:52 PM  
Frak. I didn't know much about Chuck Hagel before this article so I did some research... My opinion of him just leaped quite a bit.
 
2007-06-27 4:15:20 PM  
Homer: "America, take a good look at your beloved candidates. They're nothing but hideous space reptiles!"
Kodos: "It's true, we are aliens. But what are you going to do about it? It's a two-party system; you have to vote for one of us.
Man 1: "He's right, this is a two-party system."
Man 2: "Well, I believe I'll vote for a third-party candidate."
Kang: "Go ahead, throw your vote away!"
 
2007-06-27 4:15:39 PM  
 
2007-06-27 4:17:18 PM  
I always felt we should make president whomever wanted the job the least. People that run for president, of anything, rarely are the ones that shouldn't be president.
 
2007-06-27 4:19:51 PM  
Fred Thompson would make a strong third-party candidate, seeing that he's beating Romney and Guliani and hasn't even declared.
 
2007-06-27 4:24:22 PM  
wasn't Lincoln a 3rd party candidate as a Republican in the 1860 election?
 
2007-06-27 4:24:25 PM  
Gwendolyn: I always felt we should make president whomever wanted the job the least. People that run for president, of anything, rarely are the ones that shouldn't be president.

I think Heinlein (sp?) said this.

/i before e except after c?
//Even Einstein messed it up twice in his own farking name.
 
2007-06-27 4:29:12 PM  
albo

it sounds like they're saying that the party in his home state have stepped aside and don't challenge him with a candidate, since he probably ends up voting the way they would like him too.

I guess that makes a little more sense.
 
2007-06-27 4:29:35 PM  
crunchyfist: wasn't Lincoln a 3rd party candidate as a Republican in the 1860 election?

No, he was a Republican. Though most of those guys came from the failed Whig party back then.

It's true, 3rd party candidates don't win. Part of it is because voters don't realize than control of congress is arguably more important than the control of the presidency. There's much more of a chance of electing a 3rd party to congress, but no one pays attention, resulting in 95% incumbency.

But I think the biggest reason is campaign finance. The only way a 3rd party can run today is if you are a Ross Perot/Michael Bloomberg type that's independently wealthy. Problem is the combination of independently wealthy AND having the ability/desire to be a politician is somewhat rare. If 3rd parties could find rich patrons to fund them, you might have something different. But in our current system, you need a lot of people to get money, and you need money to get a lot of people. So a catch 22 for 3rd parties. Sorry.
 
2007-06-27 4:34:56 PM  
But I think the biggest reason is campaign finance

and don't forget getting on state ballots. the Rs and Ds have a system in place already. a third-party needs a base of supporters in 50 states to contend and win. and that's massively hard to achieve.
 
2007-06-27 4:37:10 PM  
submitter: Third-party candidates never win


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2007-06-27 4:39:27 PM  
albo: and don't forget getting on state ballots. the Rs and Ds have a system in place already. a third-party needs a base of supporters in 50 states to contend and win. and that's massively hard to achieve.

Right, that's my point - you could build a base with a combination of advertising and other outreach programs. But it takes money to conduct those programs. And with contribution caps, you already have to have that base in order to fund those programs. The two parties already know this; campaign finance is the biggest incumbent protection program out there. We need MORE money coming in to the process; not less. Let different interests compete in the marketplace of ideas. This would give the voters real power; we'd truly be able to see all of the ideas out there.
 
2007-06-27 4:41:05 PM  
The two parties already know this; campaign finance is the biggest incumbent protection program out there. We need MORE money coming in to the process; not less.

i could hug you for that heretical concept. a manly, hetero hug, of course. mccain feingold has always been about incumbency protection
 
2007-06-27 4:42:37 PM  
Curse you Bladel. That was going to be my comment. Pretty much sums it up though. I doubt any third party candidate could get anywhere near the name recognition and popularity of Roosevelt (or have as cool a name as Bull Moose Party). Third parties are stupid for running presidential candidates. They should focus on one or two state legislature districts in heavily gerrymandered districts where people feel like they have no choice.
 
2007-06-27 4:45:05 PM  
flaESQ: Another high quality piece of "journalism" from the Slopinion Journal.

Sorry your delicate sensibilities were offended - next time the admins will greenlight an absolutely neutral editorial. I'm sure it'll be a compelling read if we can muscle past all the on-the-other-hand's.
 
2007-06-27 4:46:11 PM  
Subby

Unity 08 would like a word with you.
 
2007-06-27 4:53:08 PM  
Gulper Eel: Sorry your delicate sensibilities were offended

I'm not offended, subby
 
2007-06-27 5:12:40 PM  
pmccall: Unity 08 would like a word with you.

Maurice Duverger and Kenneth Arrow would like a word with you.

/Google them
 
2007-06-27 5:17:10 PM  
Bladel: If he couldn't do it....

I have to agree. Though T.R. had the Solid South pitted against him (which voted for Wilson regardless of his positions), if a man was [going] to break the two-party system which had become prevalent by that time, it would have been him.

Perhaps we could zombify Huey Long and give him a shot at the Presidency... until zombie FDR's thugs come after him, I mean.
 
2007-06-27 5:26:55 PM  
While factually correct, that is a very shallow opinion. It dismisses the political realignments that are regularly the result of political activity beyond the reach of the two major parties.

If there is one constant in American political history it is this:

two dominant parties, firmly entrenched = status quo

two dominant parties, of which at least one is seriously threatened with the loss of its political base = systemic and structural reform of American polity

And there is not a single serious systemic reform that has taken place in this country without the pressure of a political movement beyond the reach of the entrenched parties. Like it or not, history shows that when voters confine themselves to D's or R's, it's not moderation or gradualism they're enabling; it's effectively an endorsement of keeping things the way they are.
 
2007-06-27 5:48:12 PM  
Comrade438: Perhaps we could zombify Huey Long and give him a shot at the Presidency...


Huey Long is my favourite American politician.
Read his biography and it was a kcik-ass story.
Ben Franklin is great, but his activities were way to varied to be a 'politician'
 
2007-06-27 5:58:23 PM  
IIRC, Ross Perot was ahead in the polls in the summer of 1992 and had an Electoral College advantage, too. He then pulled out and re-entered late but was still able to garner 19% of the popular vote. If he hadn't pulled out, he very easily could have won.
 
2007-06-27 6:14:39 PM  
BULL MOOSE 08!
 
2007-06-27 6:32:30 PM  
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2007-06-27 6:43:43 PM  
A big part of the reason Roosevelt lost was an inability to appeal to Democrats. The 40% who voted for Wilson were the same 40% who had hated Roosevelt all throughout his terms in office; they were a minority, but a large enough minority to prevent Roosevelt from winning the presidency with Taft peeling off his votes.

Characterizing Roosevelt's run in 1912 as a "third party candidacy" shows immense ignorance of the politics of the time. From the beginning of the campaign, more Republicans supported Roosevelt than Taft, but enough of the party elite were unwilling to deselect Taft to prevent Roosevelt from running under their banner. Realistically, however, Roosevelt ran with with the tacit support of most Republican Congressmen, and his run is more accurately characterized as the Republicans running two candidates than three different parties contesting the race.

This had the important ramification that Roosevelt was still considered by most voters a Republican. He couldn't appeal to the Democrats. Indeed, comparing the popular vote in 1904 (Roosevelt's last election) to 1912 shows that the Democratic vote was essentially unchanged, actually increasing slightly.

This clearly is not a characteristic of (legitimate, Nader et al. who stand no chance ignored) third party challenges. Perot took from both parties. So did Wallace, though any Republicans he took were recent converts from the Dixiecrats over the Civil Rights Act anyway. Bloomberg would take from both parties. Roosevelt couldn't and didn't because he wasn't a third party challenger. He was just a second Republican running for President.
 
2007-06-27 6:57:13 PM  
Gwendolyn: I always felt we should make president whomever wanted the job the least.

Approves.

ffmedia.ign.comView Full Size
 
2007-06-27 7:03:18 PM  
sigdiamond2000: This guy either doesn't know what "acquiescence" means or he's a complete nutjob.

the act or condition of acquiescing or giving tacit assent; agreement or consent by silence or without objection; compliance (usually fol. by to or in): acquiescence to his boss's demands. (pops)

If silence = consent, and you disagree that it applies here, I guess I missed all the scathing speeches denouncing Bernie Sanders from Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean.
 
2007-06-27 7:08:32 PM  
pmccall: Unity 08 would like a word with you.

Heh. People don't trust even mechanical/paper voting machines, much less the electronic ones. Think anyone's going to nod and say "The voters have spoken" if a candidate gets nominated online?

I remember how everyone was sure Howard Dean had harnessed the power of the Intertubes until the primaries actually started and they started actually counting votes--and money--and he went down in flames faster than The Hindenberg.

He did indeed raise more money online than anyone else--but far less money overall than almost everyone else.

They haven't quite got this online thing under control yet. Ain't gonna happen in '08. Not yours.
 
2007-06-27 7:10:03 PM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin: the act or condition of acquiescing or giving tacit assent; agreement or consent by silence or without objection; compliance (usually fol. by to or in): acquiescence to his boss's demands. (pops)

Let's try that link thingy again. (poppies)
 
2007-06-27 7:12:50 PM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin: Let's try that link thingy again. (poppies)

Sigh. (kaboom)

My Link Fu is weak today.
 
2007-06-27 7:24:29 PM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin

You may or may not be aware of this, but you just posted 5 times in a row.
 
2007-06-27 8:41:00 PM  
MasterThief
pmccall: Unity 08 would like a word with you.


Maurice Duverger and Kenneth Arrow would like a word with you.

Words like these?

A third party can only enter the arena if it can exploit the mistakes of a pre-existing major party, ultimately at that party's expense.

/Not that this describes our current situation in any way, does it?
//I find the parallels with the Whigs poor stance on the key issue of the day (slavery) and the geographical split of liberal/conservative tendencies in the country oddly familiar as well
 
2007-06-27 9:05:45 PM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin

Man, you showed me. I made a complete ass of myself!
 
2007-06-27 9:32:20 PM  
[image from davesilvan.com too old to be available]
 
2007-06-27 10:16:57 PM  
I doubt Bloomberg would win but with the money he has he could totally change the political landscape in terms of making both parties pay serious attention to real issues like healthcare, the enviroment, energy policy, education etc... instead of bullshiat culture war issues and other garbage that are used to divide us by the two parties. If Perot had not made such a big deal about balancing he federal budget I seriosly doubt Bill Clinton would have cared about, much less achieved, a balanced budget. Bloomberg could throw even more money and info at voters than Perot did in '92. He comes across a lot more sane than Perot and he has been successful in politics, as well as business, so he has a level of credibility that Perot did not. Bloomberg might not win but he would shake things up and I think that might be enough to get us back on track after 8 years of Dubya.
 
2007-06-27 10:43:28 PM  
pmccall: A third party can only enter the arena if it can exploit the mistakes of a pre-existing major party, ultimately at that party's expense.

/Not that this describes our current situation in any way, does it?


Somewhat. There is, however, a lack of a viable third party to do the exploiting. And no, "Unity08" doesn't count. Aside from opposition to the Iraq war and net-fueled populism, I see nothing that would unite them on any deep philosophical level, or any coherent theory about the ideals of government and society. These kinds of third parties are the Platte River of modern politics: their support is a mile wide and six inches deep. Which means that in all likelihood, they will be nothing more than a spoiler that draws more votes away from one major candidate than the other, throwing the election to the other candidate - the inherent "splitting" penalty that Duverger's Law predicts.
 
2007-06-28 12:07:28 AM  
I think a lot depends on who the Republicans and Democrats nominate. The Republican's two primary coalitions are the religious right and the fiscal conservatives. There is common ground between the fiscal conservative wing of the Republicans and the DNC-style democrats. A McCain/Clinton race (pretty realistic not too long ago) would leave a lot of common ground for an anti-war, pro-business ticket that could form a coalition of the disaffected and Unity 08 is positioned perfectly to do that.

It certainly has the potential to simply be a Duverger's splitter, and I'll even grant that's the more likely result but the early run of the primaries (extending the period of negativity that follows the final choice of candidates), the existence of people with high-value name recognition and considerable experience firmly on the sidelines(Gore and Blomberg), and the prevalence of deeply divisive issues of the Iraq War and immigration are all reasons to think that 2008 may not be as predictable as the article would like to pretend.

In short, the conditions needed to create a new party are there. And while the odds may be against it, this article exaggerates the impossibility of a third party breaking through. Duverger's Law is much more about the fact that if that happens things will fall back to a 2 party system afterwards (either because Unity fails to become a real party or because it muscles one of the other two parties to oblivion) than it is about a third party being unable to win office in any one cycle.
 
2007-06-28 12:40:35 PM  
Historically, third-party presidential candidates have appealed largely to disaffected voters of a single major party. These candidates can't win, but they affect the outcome by siphoning enough votes from that major party's candidate to guarantee his defeat.

Take TR as the Bull Moose candidate. People who had not voted for him as a Republican weren't going to vote for him this time either. He split the Republican vote and ensured the Democrat victory.

John Anderson's candidacy in 1980 was less consequential because he was trying to split the difference--running between Reagan and Carter ideologically. Many of his initial supporters drifted to one of the major party candidates between the conventions and the general election, and Reagan ended up with a majority of the popular vote and 489 electoral votes.

In 1992 Ross Perot drew his support primarily from disgruntled Republicans. Perot couldn't win, but he enabled GHW Bush's defeat and Clinton's victory. In that election, most states were won by plurality instead of majority. The combined vote totals of Bush and Perot exceeded Clinton's vote total everywhere except AK, DC, MD, and NY. Perot rearranged the electoral picture more comprehensively than any other third-party candidate.

In 2000, Ralph Nader's campaign openly admitted that one of the primary purposes of his campaign was to punish the Democrats for drifting too far to the right. The 32,000+ votes that he got in Florida were more than enough to tip the election.

Bloomberg's appeal would be primarily to northeastern and west-coast liberals in states that Kerry won in 2004, and which would presumptively go Democrat in 2008. I doubt very much that he would do well in flyover country. This implies that he siphons votes from the Democrat candidate, possibly enough to tip some key states (like Wisconsin and Pennsylvania) that were only marginally blue in 2004, and also to shore up states like Ohio and Iowa that were only marginally red.

One other interesting note: all of these third-party candidates except Nader vanished from electoral politics after their third-party campaigns. If Bloomberg runs, and ends up costing the Democrats the election in 2008, he'll be done. The hatred for him from the Democrats will eclipse anything directed at Nader in 2000. Of course, he can always console himself with a bathtub full of $100 bills.
 
2007-06-29 12:58:08 AM  
just have to get it out. stop biatching about it and vote for what you want, not cause it's a person you kind of like and he's not as bad as the other popular one.

a third party is closer and closer every election. keep in mind it hasn't always been democrats and republicans.
 
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