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(Reuters)   Palestinians are so fed up with local militant groups they wish the Israelis would occupy Gaza and the West Bank again   ( divider line
    More: Ironic  
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999 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Jun 2007 at 6:46 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook

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2007-06-08 6:03:30 PM  
Hmmm, Israel and Jordan should just stay out as long as possible until the Palestinians are begging for someone to come solve their problems for them.

If you really want entertainment, get the UN to step in and have them try to keep things in check.
2007-06-08 6:15:35 PM  
I think that was Israel's all along, although they will get Jordon and Egypt to do the beat down.

Don't forget that 'Black September' refers to Jordon wacking a bunch of Palestinians and forcing them out of the country. Nobody over there much likes the Palis, they just use them to score political points.
2007-06-08 6:48:06 PM  
[image from too old to be available]
Go Israel!
2007-06-08 6:58:03 PM  
FTFA: "Hamas and Fatah -- partners in a unity government."

Wait, I thought Hamas was in power and that was the main reason Fatah was fighting them? Did I miss the memo when they started working together?
2007-06-08 6:58:44 PM  
Oh hey Palestine, over there is your bed. Go ahead, lie down, I hope you find it comfortable...
2007-06-08 7:01:29 PM  
say it with me slowly ... "blooooooow baaaaaaaack"

That's what happens when you create weapons (such as organizations that mercilessly kill civilians and anyone who disagrees with them) ... sometimes the weapons turn on you. The CIA has been dealing with this for decades ... and now so are the self righteous terrorist sympathizers/supporters.
2007-06-08 7:04:46 PM  
The poll, which coincided with a surge in internal fighting, also found 92 percent of respondents described themselves as depressed or very depressed, up from 22 percent in April.

Ok. Time to send in Dr. Phil. He will straighten 'em out.
2007-06-08 7:05:06 PM  
Hmmm, well, when you elect a quasi-terrorist (quasi?) organization whose sole political platform is "We farking hate Israel and want to blow them up" to run your government, schiat like this happens.

It might be time to take a deep breath and admit that Israel isn't going anywhere, so you have to deal with them being there. I know Israel's gotten pretty good at fighting, but I think they'd gladly give it up.
2007-06-08 7:06:32 PM  
Go Israel!

Now where are all the hot IDF girls?
2007-06-08 7:17:39 PM  
In other news, Jews in Auschwitz were heard to remark that they really did miss those nice cozy slums they'd lived in.
2007-06-08 7:22:04 PM  
The_Sponge: Go Israel!


Now where are all the hot IDF girls?

Also this.
2007-06-08 7:34:19 PM  
Obvious should have won out
2007-06-08 7:40:46 PM  
This just proves that point that without a common enemy radical Muslims will kill Muslims.
2007-06-08 7:48:19 PM  
The only way this is ever going to work itself out is if we quit prolonging it by interfering with it. Choosing that particular spot to create an artificial state probably wasn't the best idea in the world, but giving them near unlimited funding and arms without question has probably been the biggest reason this has gone on as long as it has. The fight has been going on so long now, most of them are just fighting because the other guys want to kill them and vice versa. They're going to fight and fight and keep on fighting until eventually they come under a stable government, which will probably collapse from internal fighting. Eventually, when everyone's been fighting so long that there is no one distinguishable "enemy" a united peaceful state can finally come into existence. It might take a long time, but it's the only eventual outcome. Giving all this money and weaponry to Israel only makes the fight last longer and makes us another face of "the enemy" as Israels unconditional money supply. What we really need to do is just GTFO and start treating Israel just like we would any other country. If we're not involved, the militant groups have no reason to care about us and the process of fighting until they finally get tired of it can continue. At this point, the Israelis have enough of our money and weapons to take control of the area. If we'd just let them work it out themselves and treat them normally (not just ignore the infallibility of God's chosen people when they accidentally launch unprovoked mass bombings) the people would all fight and rebel and protest, and eventually they'd earn a place of representation that made everyone living their fairly content. We don't need to help them kill each other, we need to let them assimilate on their own. You can't force people to stop fighting, all you can do is let them eventually lose the will and reason to fight.
2007-06-08 8:04:03 PM  
I've always felt that the reason Hamas was elected was so that they could stop the fighting and actually try to establish some sort of peace with Israel. They would be forced to do this because they were/are the government. I'm done. Full Size
2007-06-08 8:07:57 PM  
img146.imageshack.usView Full Size

timblair.netView Full Size
2007-06-08 8:08:45 PM  
Krymore, how did you link the infighting in Palistin to our funding of Israel? The funding does not affect the two groups of palistinians killing each other because the other does not hate Isreal enough. We should stop funding Israel but not for this reason.
2007-06-08 8:25:15 PM  

I'm just saying funding Israel only keeps the fight in the region going longer. They were all united in a fight against Israel that they could never hope to stop because of Israels limitless funding. Without Israel to fight, they're fighting each other, which I guess you could call progress. The people that want to fight will fight until the people tire of it, but that can never happen as long as they have the pretty much invincible Israel to endlessly throw themselves at. Either Israel leaves them alone enough to where they can fight it out amongst themselves until they come up with a peaceful Palestinian state, or more likely, Israel takes over. Assuming we're no longer treating Israel like the Paris Hilton of the world, we and the UN can convince them that apartheid and genocide are bad ideas and the Palestinians will protest and petition until they get representation that everyone can agree on. No matter what happens, you can't stop the fighting from the outside, it has to work itself out from the inside.


[image from too old to be available]
2007-06-08 8:28:16 PM  
Exactly, that's why I'm sickened by the Palestinian and Arab apologists. These people are incompetent and are not a parter for peace.
2007-06-08 8:28:17 PM  
img.photobucket.comView Full Size

See, living in a theocracy isn't that great. Sure the government of Israel gives special privileges to Jewish people, but they also are conscripted into serving in the holy Jew army.
2007-06-08 8:32:07 PM  
For those that don't get the point: those hot IDF chicks did not join the army because they wanted to, they joined because they were forced to, and they were forced to join the IDF because of their religious beliefs.

That's why it annoys me when it's "hot IDF chick time" on Fark, as if they actually wanted to be in the army and fight for Israel or whatever you want to call it. They have no choice in the matter.
2007-06-08 8:45:53 PM  
For those that don't get the point: those hot IDF chicks did not join the army because they wanted to, they joined because they were forced to, and they were forced to join the IDF because of their religious beliefs mandatory conscription.

2007-06-08 9:00:43 PM  

Can't say no to Serious Cat now can I?

[image from too old to be available]

[image from too old to be available]
2007-06-08 9:16:58 PM  
Personally if I lived a few miles and one fence away from people who wanted to kill me and my family, I don't think I would have any problem being motivated in defending my life or my religion.
The hot chicks are just a bonus.
For several hundred years till the Mayor of Jerusalem was taught to hate the Jews again by the Nazi's in the thirties they lived side by side with those who now would kill them with no problem.
Want to see more Google " Tell the Children the Truth " Pictures and Documents.
It's definitely another answer as to why can't we just all get along.
Their religions are quite similar , they both hate pigs and both had at one time the same punishments.
2007-06-08 9:19:43 PM  

Fixed that for me? If you're Jewish you are conscripted. No one else in Israel is conscripted, only Jews are.

Israelis are conscripted based on their religion.
2007-06-08 9:22:24 PM  
Krymore --
Somalia (post Barre), Afghanistan (after Soviet withdrawal and breakup of subsequent mujahadeen government), Lebanon (after LMN leftists vs. Phlangists ignited it all), all come to mind as examples of places with brutal civil wars where no faction had sufficient power to establish stability through dominance, but multiple had sufficient strength to continue fighting until external powers intervened.

There isn't that much reason to assume that either Fatah or Hamas has enough power to subdue the other, the frequent weapons smuggling keeps them well-supplied, and the high unemployment rate and poverty helps assure a supply of recruits... particularly when the government controls such a large portion of jobs, and the factions control the government and hire their own militants as "security" forces.

2007-06-08 9:30:54 PM  
Guess_Who --
The fact that Arafat's Fatah was massively, massively corrupt and far more competent at making aid money disappear than just about anything else (such as running a remotely functional economy, or winning statehood with Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem plus the right of return) probably had something to do with the Palestinian electorate giving Hamas a shot.
2007-06-08 9:38:07 PM  
Israelis are conscripted based on their religion citizenship.

Now the kicker that is that the Israelies do not give full citizenship to non jews.

/For some reason I feel like being a jerk and spliting hares today
2007-06-08 9:46:45 PM  
Saiga410: Now the kicker that is that the Israelies do not give full citizenship to non jews.

That's completely untrue. Some 20% of Israeli citizens are non-Jews. Being exempt from mandatory conscription doesn't mean they are not full citizens.
2007-06-08 9:48:27 PM  
rush22: Israelis are conscripted based on their religion.

So do you then believe some who is ethnically Jewish but is an atheist is exempt from conscription because they are not religiously Jewish?
2007-06-08 10:01:20 PM  
The IDF is a pretty secular army. The religious crazies that cause so much of Israels problems, the Ultra-concervatives, do not serve in the IDF.

/kind of like fundies in America
2007-06-08 10:05:28 PM  

rush22: Israelis are conscripted based on their religion.

So do you then believe some who is ethnically Jewish but is an atheist is exempt from conscription because they are not religiously Jewish?


But I suppose you ask the question because I'm wrong. You're saying that people are conscripted based on their race, right?

So Israel conscripts people based on their race, and only grants citizenship to people of a certain race.

I got it.
2007-06-08 10:05:37 PM  
etv_2k: The IDF is a pretty secular army. The religious crazies that cause so much of Israels problems, the Ultra-concervatives, do not serve in the IDF.

That's actually a good point. Not only is conscription not mandated based on being religiously Jewish, you can actually be exempted from service due to religious concerns. This makes the notion that conscription is based on religion ever more ridiculous.
2007-06-08 10:06:32 PM  
Same as the old boss?
2007-06-08 10:16:35 PM  
rush22: But I suppose you ask the question because I'm wrong. You're saying that people are conscripted based on their race, right?

Those citizens of Israel who are of Arabic descent are exempt from conscription so that Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are not forces to fight against other Palestinians. It's to prevent forcing one brother to fight another (which can be literal in this conflict), and I'd guess loyalty concerns played a part in creating the exemption as well. Arabs are allowed to enlist and many do.

So Israel conscripts people based on their race, and only grants citizenship to people of a certain race.

No, Israel exempts some people from conscription based on political concerns. Citizenship and military service are entirely different matters and that was a really lame attempt to link then while trying to put words in my mouth.

As I just said and you likely just read around 20% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish. There are no racial limitations on who can be a citizen. Since Israel was created as a safe haven for Jews, those of ethnic Jewish descent (as well as others like spouses, children, religious converts, etc.) have a fast track to citizenship. Many nations offer a fast track to citizenship for immigrants who are of the same ethnicity. Israel allows anyone to become a naturalized citizen. If you had spent three seconds on google to research the issue you could have found this out.

Here, I'll even help. %20Nationality
2007-06-08 10:20:20 PM  
I also think the fact that Druze, an Islamic sect, serve in the IDF kills the whole Jewish army myth.
2007-06-08 10:28:27 PM  

Ok, I looked into it so tell me if this is right:

You can only be an Israeli citizen if:

a) Your parents are a certain race (Jewish race).
b) Your parents surrendered to Israel after the war and became Israeli citizens at that point.

If you are an (a) citizen (racially Jewish) you are conscripted. If you are a (b) citizen you are not. Is this right?
2007-06-08 10:30:10 PM  
Oh wait, but what if a (b) citizen who is not religiously Jewish converts to Judaism? Are they conscripted if they convert to Judaism? Are they considered racially Jewish if they convert to Judaism?
2007-06-08 10:30:45 PM  
I was reading up on the conscription issue a little and it seems Israel encourages Druze and Bedouin Arabs to serve. Palestinian Arab citizens can enlist, but they have to be vetted by the security service so I'd imagine in today's political climate even if they were to enlist odds are that something as remote as their uncle having been the college roommate of the hairdresser of someone who had a similar name to a known terrorist is enough for the IDF to say "thanks, but no thanks".
2007-06-08 10:34:39 PM  
rush22: Ok, I looked into it so tell me if this is right:

Wrong. So wrong in fact you're making it pretty transparent that you are not interested in an honest conversation. If you are you can read the link I provided that explains it very clearly.
2007-06-08 10:40:01 PM  
Dang it, an extraneous space got inserted into the pasted link. Non-lazy version: link
2007-06-08 11:05:14 PM  
It should be noted though that the IDF is segragated. Druze with druze, palistinians with palaistinians, jewish with jewish.
So obviously Israel is generations away from integration.
2007-06-08 11:11:07 PM  

Wrong. So wrong in fact you're making it pretty transparent that you are not interested in an honest conversation. If you are you can read the link I provided that explains it very clearly.

Alright answer me these questions if you know so much about it:

1) I am not Jewish. I am not an Israeli citizen. Can I obtain Israeli citizenship? What are the conditions? Will I be conscripted?

2) I am Jewish. I am not an Israeli citizen. Can I obtain Israeli citizenship? What are the conditions?

3) I have Israeli citizenship. I am not Jewish. Will I be conscripted?

4) I have Israeli citizenship. I am Jewish. Will I be conscripted?
2007-06-08 11:29:46 PM  
And for my answers, as I understand it.

1) Yes. It says I would have to live in Israel for five years. So is this is like normal immigration (I think) into a country and I need a work visa and live there for five years before applying for citizenship.
2) Yes. I get Israeli citizenship whenever I want based on my race and/or religious beliefs.
3) No I will not be conscripted, based on my race and/or religious beliefs.
4) Yes I will be conscripted, based on my race and/or religious beliefs.
2007-06-08 11:53:34 PM  
Looks like I'm just another anti-Semite because I think Israel's citizenship and conscription laws give preferential treatment to certain races and religions, and I think that's racist and prejudiced. Which they obviously do and which it is.

What if I'm not a Jew and I want to immigrate to Israel? Get in line behind the Jews--they get preferred treatment based on their race and religion. What if I am a Jew and I don't want to be conscripted? Too bad. Jews must serve the state of Israel or go to jail. Gentiles don't have to, so this time they get the preferred treatment.
2007-06-09 12:20:03 AM  
rush22 2007-06-08 11:53:34 PM
Looks like I'm just another anti-Semite because I think Israel's citizenship and conscription laws give preferential treatment to certain races and religions, and I think that's racist and prejudiced. Which they obviously do and which it is.

What if I'm not a Jew and I want to immigrate to Israel? Get in line behind the Jews--they get preferred treatment based on their race and religion.

That's life. Most European countries have some sort of fast tracked citizenship for their traditional ethnicity. Hungary and Italy for example.

Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia on the other hand won't give citizenship to non-Muslims, not in 5 years, not ever.
That's their right. Don't like it, don't move there.

What if I am a Jew and I don't want to be conscripted? Too bad. Jews must serve the state of Israel or go to jail.

Conscription, zomg let's go protest!!!!1111. It will be easier to simply burn an entire flag store.

Albania has compulsory military service.

[edit] Austria

Austria has mandatory military service for fit male citizens from 18 to 35 years of age. Since 2006, the period of service has been six months. Conscientious objectors can join the civilian service (called Zivildienst) for nine months.

Since January 1, 1998, females can join the military service voluntarily.

[edit] Belarus

Belarus has mandatory military service for all fit men from eighteen to twenty-seven years of age. Military service lasts for eighteen months for those without higher education, and for twelve months for those with higher education.

[edit] Bermuda

Bermuda, although an overseas territory of the United Kingdom, still maintains conscription for its local force. Males between the age of eighteen and thirty-two are drawn by lottery to serve in The Bermuda Regiment for a period of thirty-eight months. The commitment is only on a part time basis, however. Anyone who objects to this has the right to have their case heard by an exemption tribunal.

[edit] Brazil

Males in Brazil are required to serve 12 months (24 months in the air force, 36 in the navy) of military service upon their 18th birthday. Most often, the service is performed in military bases as close as possible to the person's home. The government does not require those planning to attend college or holding a permanent job to serve. There are also several other exceptions, including health reasons, for which one may not have to serve. Those who intend to attend military academies need to be through entrance tests.

[edit] Bulgaria

Bulgaria has mandatory military service for male citizens from eighteen to twenty-seven years of age. Currently (2004) the duration of the service depends on the degree of education. For citizens studying for or holding a bachelor degree or higher the service is six months, and for citizens with no higher education it is nine months.[7] During the last ten years the duration of service has rapidly dropped (from two years in 1994) and, as Bulgaria adopts a professional army, mandatory service will be replaced with voluntary service on 1 January 2008.[7][8]

[edit] Chile

Chile has mandatory military service for male ( citizens between eighteen and forty-five. The duration of service is twelve months for the army and twenty-four months for Navy and Air Force.

[edit] China (PRC)

Conscription has existed in theory since the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949; however, because of China's huge population and therefore the large number of individuals who volunteer to join the regular armed forces, a draft has never been enforced.

Conscription is enshrined in Article 55 of the Constitution, which states: "It is a sacred duty of every citizen of the People's Republic of China to defend his or her motherland and resist invasion. It is an honoured obligation of the citizens of the People's Republic of China to perform military service and to join the militia forces." [2]

The present legal basis of conscription is the 1984 Military Service Law, which describes military service as a duty for "all citizens without distinction of race (...) and religious creed." This law has not been amended since it came into effect. [1] [4]

Military service is normally performed in the regular armed forces, but the 1984 law does allow for conscription into the reserve forces.

Hong Kong and Macau SAR residents however, as of 1997 and 1999 are forbidden from joining the military.

[edit] Croatia

Croatian law prescribes military service for male citizens from eighteen to twenty-seven years old. The duration of the normal military service is six months (as of 2004), while conscientious objectors can apply for civilian service which lasts for eight months. Conscription is regularly postponed for students until the end of their studies, as long as they apply before they turn twenty-eight years of age.

Over the last decade or so, the duration of military service has been halved and civilian service was introduced together with the streamlining of the professional army. Should this trend continue, the mandatory service may eventually be completely replaced with voluntary service.[9]

[edit] Cyprus

Main article: Conscription in Cyprus

Cyprus has compulsory military service for all Greek Cypriot men between the ages of eighteen and fifty. Military service lasts for twenty-five months. After that, ex-soldiers are considered reservists and participate in military exercises for a few days every year. Conscientious objectors can either do thirty three months unarmed service in the army or thirty eight months community work. See official pages by the Greek Cypriot National Guard. Legislation and practice relating to civilian alternatives to military service remained punitive in nature, although new legislation which came into force in 2004 reduced the length of such alternative service. The Special Committee, which makes recommendations on applications for conscientious objection, proposed a blanket rejection of applications based on ideological grounds where applicants do not declare particular beliefs. AI called for a re-evaluation of the Committee's methods and for the authorities to establish an alternative to military service of a purely civilian nature, outside the authority of the Ministry of Defence. Amnesty International The Annan Plan for Cyprus that was rejected in the 2004 referendum mandated the demilitarisation of the island and the disbanding of both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot forces.

[edit] Denmark

As described in the Constitution of Denmark, § 81, Denmark has mandatory service for all able men. Normal service is four months, and is normally served by men in the age of eighteen to twenty-seven. Some special services will take longer. Danish men will typically receive a letter around the time of their 18th birthday, asking when their current education (if any) ends, and some time later, depending on when, they will receive a notice on when to attend to the draft office to be tested physically and psychologically. However, some may be deemed unfit for service and not be required to show up.

Even if a person is deemed fit, or partially fit for service, he may avoid having to serve if he draws a high enough number randomly. Persons who are deemed partly fit for service will however be placed lower than those who are deemed fit for service, and therefore have a very low chance of being drafted. Men deemed fit can be called upon for service until their 50th birthday in case of national crisis, regardless of whether normal conscription has been served. This right is very rarely exercised by Danish authorities.

Conscientious objectors can choose to instead serve six months in a non-military position, for example in Redningsberedskabet (dealing with non-military disasters like fires, flood, pollution, etc.) or foreign aid work in a third world country. [10].

[edit] Egypt

Egypt had a mandatory military service program for males between the ages of eighteen and thirty. Females of comparable age serve in a civilian program. Conscription is regularly postponed for students until the end of their studies, as long as they apply before they turn twenty-eight years of age. By the age of thirty a male is considered unfit to join the army and pays a fine. Males with no brothers, or those supporting parents are exempted from the service. Males serve for a period ranging from fourteen months to forty-eight months depending on their education; high school dropouts serve for forty-eight months during which they finish their high-school education. College graduates serve for lesser periods of time, depending on their education, and college graduates with special skills are still conscripted yet at a different rank and with a different pay scale with the option of remaining with the service as a career. Some Egyptians evade conscription and travel overseas until they reach the age of thirty, at which point they are tried, pay a $580 fine (as of 2004), and are dishonorably relieved of their obligation to serve in the army. Such an offense, legally considered an offense of "bad moral character", prevents the "unpatriotic" citizen from ever holding public office.

[edit] Eritrea

Eritrea has a mandatory military service program for both men and women aged eighteen through forty. The term of service is eighteen months. There is no alternate service. The Eritrean government is well-known for hunting down draft evaders. Draft evaders often flee the country to nearby countries.

[edit] Finland
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Please update the article to reflect recent events, and remove this template when finished.

Finland has mandatory military service for men of a minimum duration of six months (180 days), depending on the assigned position: those trained as officers or NCOs serve for twelve months (362 days), specialist troops serve for nine (270 days) or twelve months, while rank and file serve for the minimum period. Unarmed service is also possible, and lasts eleven months (330 days). Since 1995, women have been able to volunteer for military service. During the first 45 days, women have an option to quit at will. Having served for 45 days, they fall under the same obligation to serve as men except for medical reasons. A pregnancy during service would interrupt the service but not automatically cause a medical discharge.

Non-military service of thirteen months (395 days) is available for men whose conscience prevents them from serving in the military. Men who refuse to serve at all are sent to prison for six and a half months (197 days) or half the time of their remaining non-military service at the time of refusal. In theory, male citizens from the demilitarized Åland region are to serve in customs offices or lighthouses, but since this service has not been arranged, they are always exempted in practice. Jehovah's Witnesses' service is postponed every two years until they, at the age of twenty-eight, are exempted from service. Military service has been mandatory for men throughout the history of independent Finland since 1917. Soldiers and civilian servicemen receive a daily salary of 3.80 € (days 1 - 180), 6.50 € (days 181 - 270) and 9.00 € (onward from day 271).

Approximately 20% are trained as NCOs (corporals, sergeants), and 10% are trained as officers-in-reserve (second lieutenant). In wartime, it is expected that the officers-in-reserve fulfil most Company Commander positions. At the beginning of the service, all men go trough same basic training of eight weeks. After this eight week period it is decided who will be trained as NCOs or officers.

Having completed the initial part of the service as a conscript, the soldier is placed in the reserve. Reservists may be called for mandatory refresher exercises. Rank and file serve a maximum of 40 days, specialists 75 days and officers and NCOs 100 days. Per refresher course day, the reservists receive a salary of about fifty euro. The service is mandatory; it is not possible to refuse an order to attend the refresher exercise, only postpone. As of late though, the option to opt for non-military service has been made available as the Finnish Defence Forces has made ongoing budget cuts, reflected in the number of reservist exercises annually.

The length of non-military service has been criticized as "punitive and discriminatory" by Amnesty International[8] because it is over twice as long as the minimum six-month military service. Several motions to shorten it have been made in the Finnish Parliament but none have passed. Proponents point out that those serving as conscripts serve in theory 24 hours per day (especially when in the field), as opposed to those who have opted for non-military service, who (depending on the post) typically serve only during office hours. The Commander of the Defence Forces incumbent, Juhani Kaskeala, recently criticized the role of the civilian service as a punishment and as a way to avoid duty. He proposed that its length should be 12 months or, in par with the longest military service, and the tasks should related directly to security.

There are no general exemptions for the conscription. Study, work or other civilian activity is not grounds for exemption nor automatic postponing. The law requires employers, landlords etc. to continue any pre-existing contracts after the service. For medical reasons, exemption or postponing can be given only by a military doctor. If the disability is expected to be cured, there is no exemption, and the service is postponed.

Over 80% of Finnish males serve in the military. Often there is great pressure from family members to do armed instead of civilian service. Finnish World War Two veterans are highly respected in Finland, and not undertaking military service may be considered an offence towards veterans in the family. There has also been a prevailing social assumption that masculinity can only be proved by army service, and, consequently, not doing so can lead to the stigmatisation of non-conscripts as not "real men". This has recently started waning as being considered an old-fashioned perspective, but it still holds in some more traditional occupations such as teaching. Additionally, the youth are often frightened that employers do not hire men who have performed civilian service.

The national security policy of Finland is based on a credible independent defence of all Finnish territory. The Constitution of Finland expressly permits only United Nations or OSCE military operations abroad. Furthermore, the maximum number of military personnel abroad is limited to 2,000 (out of the 900,000 available reserve). Contributions to the UN troops comprise only professional soldiers and trained, paid reservists who have specifically applied to such operations. Therefore, there is no "expeditionary wars" argument against conscription.

Political opposition to conscription is rather marginalized and heavily associated with Communist or anarchist groups. Particularly, the "Defenders of Peace" (Rauhanpuolustajat), who opposed military readiness, were supported by the Soviets during the Cold War era. Therefore, opposition to conscription is still heavily associated with anti-patriotism and Communism.

[edit] Germany

Main article: Conscription in Germany

Germany has mandatory military service of nine months for men. Women may volunteer and are allowed to perform similar jobs as men. A conscientious objector may petition for permission to do civilian alternative service, "civilian service" (Zivildienst) instead for nine months, which is usually accepted. A third option is to become a foreign development aide (Entwicklungshelfer) for at least eighteen months. Overall, however, during the past few years, the number of men being drafted has declined significantly.

Besides several exceptions, military service is compulsory for all men between the ages of eighteen and twenty-three years. Those who are engaged in educational or vocational training programs prior to their military assessment are allowed to postpone service until they have completed the programs and can be called upon to perform their national duty at any time thereafter. This, however does not apply for students who want to take up courses at university.

[edit] Greece

Main article: Conscription in Greece

As of 2006, Greece (Hellenic Republic) has mandatory military service of twelve months for men. Although Greece is developing a professional army system, it continues to enforce the 12-month mandatory military service despite earlier promises that the draft will be reduced to six months. Women are accepted into the Greek army, they are not obliged to join as men are. Soldiers receive full health insurance and a salary of approximately nine euro per month for privates and twelve euro for the rank of draft corporal and draft sergeant. The wages are not sufficient to sustain a draftee serving his tour away from his place of residence and most draftees depend on their parents to support them financially while they are on their tour.

[edit] Conscientious objection to military service (Greece)

The length of alternative civilian service for conscientious objectors to military service remained punitive at 42 months. Amnesty International was also concerned that the determination of conscientious objector status fell under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defence, which breaches international standards that stipulate that the entire institution of alternative service should have a civilian character.(Amnesty International)

[edit] Iran

Iran has mandatory military service for men. Duration of military service is dependent on some conditions and circumstances, but it is usually 21 months in normal conditions on top of the three months of initial training. Exceptions are those who cannot serve because of injury or disability or some social conditions. More information can be found at Police Web Site (in Persian). Students are exempt as long as they are attending school. The higher the education of a man, the higher his rank will be in the military. These days, students who have admission plus financial support from a foreign university, can get exception by putting a bail (about $15000). Many times, when the government has financial problems, those who are living abroad or even those who are inside the country who have to serve in the military can get permanent exemption by paying about $5000 to the government. Also Most of the young men do not like to pass it. They have to do it. Because they get very low salary. For an MSc graduate it is about $30 a month.

[edit] Israel

Israel has mandatory military service for both men and women. All Israeli citizens are conscripted at age 18 or the conclusion of 12th Grade, with the following exceptions:

* Haredim are eligible for a deferral during their religious studies, which essentially becomes an exemption.
* Israeli Arabs are exempt from conscription, although they may volunteer. The men of other non-Jewish communities in Israel, notably the Druze, Bedouin, and Circassians, are conscripted; women are not though may volunteer.
* Religiously observant Jewish women can apply for an exemption from army service. Although some choose to serve, many opt to serve voluntarily in civilian "national service" (sherut leumi).
* Young women are not inducted if they are married or pregnant.
* Candidates who do not qualify on grounds of mental or physical health.

Typically, men are required to serve for 3 years and women for 2 years. Officers and other soldiers in certain voluntary units such as Nahal and Hesder are required to sign on for additional service. Those studying in a "Mechina" (pre-induction preparatory course) defer service until the conclusion of the program, typically one academic year. An additional program (called "Atuda'i") for qualified applicants allows post-secondary academic studies prior to induction. See also: Israel Defence Forces.

There is a very limited amount of conscientious objection to conscription into the IDF. More common is refusal by reserve soldiers to serve in the West Bank and Gaza. Some of these conscientious objectors may be assigned to serve elsewhere, or are sentenced to brief prison terms lasting a few months to a year and may subsequently receive dishonourable discharges. See also: Refusal to serve in the Israeli military.

After their period of regular army service, men are liable for up to 45 days per year of reserve duty (miluim) until they are their early forties. Women in certain positions of responsibility are liable for reserve duty to a limited extent, until they are twenty-four years old, married, or pregnant.

[edit] Korea, South

South Korea has mandatory military service of 24 to 27 months.[9] There are no alternatives for conscientious objectors[10] except imprisonment.

There are many reported instances of American citizens of Korean descent being forced to serve in the South Korean military. Under South Korean law, one is considered a citizen if one's name is entered into the Korean Family Census Register, or hojuk. At least two of these cases involved individuals whose names had been recorded on the Korean Family Census Register, without their knowledge. [11].

[edit] Malaysia

Main article: Malaysian National Service

As of 2004, Malaysia has mandatory national service of three months for a selected group of both men and women. Twenty percent of 18-year-olds are selected through a lottery system to join this program. Trainees are not trained to use firearms. The first training date was February 16, 2004. See Official Information from Malaysia National Service Training Department.

[edit] Mexico

Currently, all males reaching eighteen years of age must register for military service (Servicio Militar Nacional, or SMN) for one year, though selection is made by a lottery system using the following color scheme: whoever draws a black ball must serve as a "disponibility reservist", that is, he must not follow any activities whatsoever and get his discharge card at the end of the year. The ones who get a white ball serve in a Batallón del Servicio Militar Nacional (National Military Service Battalion) composed entirely of one-year SMN conscripts. Those with a community service interest may participate in Literacy Campaigns as teachers or as physical education instructors. Military service is also (voluntarily) open to women. In certain cities, such as Mexico City and Veracruz, there is a third option: a red ball (Mexico City) and a Blue ball (Veracruz), which entails serving a full year as a recruit in a Paratrooper Battalion in the case of Mexico City residents, or an Infantería de Marina unit (Navy Marines) in Veracruz. In other cities which have a Navy HQ (such as Ciudad Madero), it is the Navy which takes charge of the conscripts, instead of the Army.

Draft dodging was an uncommon occurrence in Mexico until 2002, since a "liberated" military ID card was needed for a Mexican male to obtain a passport, but since this requirement was dropped, absenteeism from military service has become much more common.

[edit] Norway

Norway has mandatory military service of nineteen months for men between the ages of 18.5 (17 with parental consent) and 44 (55 in case of war). Beginning in 2006, the armed forces will also invite females to take a pre-service medical examination, but they will not be drafted unless they sign a declaration of willingness. The actual draft time is six months for the home guard, and twelve months for the regular army, air force and navy.

The remaining months are supposed to be served in annual exercises, but very few conscripts do this because of lack of funding for the Norwegian armed forces. As a result of this decreased funding and greater reliance on high technology, the armed forces are aiming towards drafting only 10,000 conscripts a year. The remainder, for the most part, either are formally dismissed after medical tests or obtain deferral from the service because of studies or stays abroad.

Some, such as those who choose vocational course paths during high school (for example, carpenters and electricians) opt to complete their required apprenticeships within the military. While some Norwegians consider it unfair that they have to complete the compulsory military duty when so many others are dismissed, others see it as a privilege and there is normally high competition to be allowed to join some branches of the service.[citation needed] Employers often show favorable regard to those who complete their military service, although many do not care.[citation needed]

The Norwegian armed forces will normally not draft a person who has reached the age of 28. In Norway, certain voluntary specialist training programs and courses entail extended conscription of one to eight years. Pacifists can apply for non-military service, which lasts 12 months.

[edit] Poland

Poland has a compulsory service term of nine months for all mature men (three months for those with higher education). However, many of them are considered unfit for mandatory military service during peacetime. Effectively, many tens of thousands of men are drafted each autumn. Alternative service can be requested, e.g. in the police force. This is only valid if you are not attending an educational facility. Students born in 1983 or later can volunteer for military preparations, so they can serve in the military for 6 weeks during their summer break after they finish fourth semester. After joining the European Union, many young men moved abroad in order to avoid the draft and the quite low conditions within the Polish Army. Also many, facing very high unemployment in the country, join the forces voluntarily to serve the term and later gain opportunities to get well paid jobs within the military or police. In the autumn of 2006, the Polish parliament decided to phase out the draft by 2010 and make the Polish army an all-volunteer army.[12]

[edit] Russia

Main article: Conscription in Russia

The conscription system was introduced into Imperial Russia by Dmitry Milyutin on 1 January 1874. As of 2007, Russian Federation has a mandatory 18 months draft for men but most Russians try to avoid it. The most widely used ways to avoid the military service are:

* Studying in a university or similar place. All full-time students are free from conscription, but they can be drafted after they graduate (or if they drop out). Graduated students serve one year as privates, but if they have a military education, they have the option to serve two years as officers. Persons who continue full-time postgraduate education, or have an academic degree (Candidate of Science, PhD, Doctor of Science) are not drafted.
* Getting a medical certificate that shows that a person is unfit for service. Sometimes such certificates are false and can be made for a bribe.
* Bribing military or civilian officials responsible for draft.
* Just not going to a draft station - draft-dodging. This sometimes can be a criminal offence, punishable by up to two years in prison. Russian police and military draft boards often perform conscription through detention [13].
* A rarely used way is having more than two children, or one child younger than three years. The latter will be dropped from the law in 2008.
* There are other legal (described in the law) and illegal ways to evade the draft.

In Russia, a person can be conscripted at the age 18 - 27, i.e. a man can't be drafted after he turns twenty-seven.

In 2006, the Russian government and duma gradually reduced the term of service to 18 months for those who will be conscripted in 2007 and to one year from 2008 and dropped some legal excuses for non-conscription from the law (such as non-conscription of rural doctors and teachers, of men who have a child younger than 3 years, etc.) from 1 January 2008. Also full-time students graduated from civil university with military education will be free from conscription from 1 January 2008.

As a result of draft evasion, Russian generals have complained on numerous times that the bulk of the army is made up of drug addicts, imbeciles, and ex-convicts, which in turn has lead to an overall decline of the morale and function of the Russian armed services. Conscripts often face brutal hazing and bullying upon their entrance into the military, known as dedovshchina, some dying as a result. Suicide among Russian conscripts is at an all-time high.

See also

* Conscription through detention in Russia's armed forces
* Only eleven percent of Russian men enter mandatory military service.
* Dedovschina.
* Russian draftee's legs and genitals amputated after hazing incident.

[edit] Serbia

Main article: Conscription in Serbia

Serbia has compulsory national service for all men aged between 19 and 35. In practice, men over 27 are seldom called up. Service is usually performed after University studies have been completed. The length of service was 9 months but has recently been reduced to 6 months (2006). There is also an alternative for conscientious objectors which lasts 9 months. Serbian nationals living outside of the country were still expected to complete national service, however, they may defer it if it will seriously impact their career in the country where they currently reside. This can be done by contacting the embassy in the country of residence (if under 27), or must be done by contacting the army directly (if over 27).

Mandatory military service does not exist in Kosovo.

[edit] Singapore

Main article: National Service in Singapore

In Singapore, the NS (Amendment) Act was passed on 14 March 1967, under which all able-bodied male citizens of 18 - 21 years of age were required to serve 24 months of compulsory national service in the Singapore Armed Forces, the Singapore Police Force, or the Singapore Civil Defence Force. Upon completion of full-time NS, they undergo reservist training cycles of up to forty days a year for the next ten years.

The majority of conscripts serve in the Singapore Armed Forces due to its larger manpower requirements. Almost all conscripts undergo basic military training before being deployed to the various services, the police, or Civil Defence; conscripts do not have the opportunity to choose their assignment. Conscripts, known as National Servicemen, hold leadership positions as Specialists or commissioned officers.

Singapore used to have one of the longest mandatory military service periods for males, at thirty months prior to 2005. It also has special policies for ethnic Malays, because of possible conflicts in allegiances with neighbour Malaysia, and some are Malays are assigned to service in the Singapore Police Force or Singapore Civil Defence Force.

[edit] Sweden

Since 1902 military service is mandatory in Sweden. All Swedish men between age 18 and 47 can be called to serve with the armed forces. The number of drafted have changed over time, but during the Cold war it was about 90%. Today, less than one third of the country's eligible 19-year-olds are actually drafted each year. Military service used to comprise between 8 to 15 months of training, but recent reforms have changed this to 11 or 15 month taking the school terms into consideration.

Men may choose to do unarmed service, for instance as a firefighter. Generally, unarmed service is shorter than armed.

Since 1980 women are allowed to serve in the armed forces. As of 2002, Sweden's government asked the army to consider mandatory military service for women. See Sweden considers mandatory military service for women.

[edit] Switzerland

Switzerland has the largest militia army in the world (220,000 including reserves). Military service for Swiss men is obligatory according to the Federal Constitution, and includes 18 or 21 weeks of basic training (depending on troop category) as well as annual 3-week-refresher courses until a number of service days which increases with rank (260 days for privates) is reached. Service for women is voluntary, but identical in all respects. Conscientious objectors can choose 390 days of community service instead of military service. Medical deferments and dismissals from basic training (often on somewhat dubious grounds) have increased significantly in the last years. Therefore, only about 55% to 60% of Swiss men actually complete basic training.

See also: Swiss Civilian Service

[edit] Taiwan (ROC)

Main article: Conscription in the Republic of China

The Republic of China has had mandatory military service for all males since 1949. Females from the outlying islands of Fuchien were also required to serve in a civil defense role, although this requirement has been dropped since the lifting of martial law. In October 1999, the mandatory service was shortened from twenty-four months to twenty-two months; from January 2004 it was shortened further to eighteen months, and from 1 January 2006 the duration has decreased to sixteen months. The ROC Defense Ministry has announced that should voluntary enlistment reach sufficient numbers, the compulsory service period for draftees will be shortened to fourteen months in 2007, and further to twelve months in 2008, if trend persists.

ROC nationals with Overseas Chinese status are exempt from service. Draftees may also request alternative service, usually in community service areas, although the required service period would be longer than military service. Qualified draftees with graduate degrees in the sciences or engineering who pass officer candidate exams may also apply to fulfill their obligations in a national defense service option which involves three months of military training, followed by an officer commission in the reserves and four years working in technical jobs in the defense industry or govern

(blah blah blah)
2007-06-09 12:43:48 AM  
Another oddity of the Israeli conscription laws: an only-child is conscripted but will not be placed in a front-line combat unit.
2007-06-09 1:03:07 AM  

Yeah I know lots of places have conscription. It's not usually based on race though, it is usually based only on citizenship, and usually male. That's what I find 'interesting' about Israel, especially when taking into consideration its other religious and race based laws. These kinds of laws are unfair and I'm not too fond of conscription either.

The reason I brought up conscription is because of the hot IDF chicks pics. No one posts regular Jewish girl pictures, it's all IDF chicks. That means there's a message there, and that message is obviously "look at this hot chick.... and also look how cool Israel's army is for having these hot chicks in it!!1" Considering that most people do not know that these soldiers were conscripted, they might think "the IDF must be really great if all these hot chicks joined up" and so I wanted to disabuse them of that notion and take the fact that they were conscripted into consideration.
2007-06-09 5:30:44 AM  
What? You mean today's freedom fighters become tomorrow's oppressors? When has that ever happened?
2007-06-09 8:11:15 AM  
Hmm....I wonder how much the Israelis had to pay to plant this story.
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