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(Wall Street Journal)   Congress declares it a felony to charge too much for gas when supplies are low, thereby making the laws of supply and demand vanish into thin air   (opinionjournal.com) divider line
    More: Stupid  
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686 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 May 2007 at 6:17 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



133 Comments     (+0 »)


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2007-05-28 5:56:13 PM  
I think they are trying to keep the supplyers from creating a false low supply.
 
2007-05-28 5:57:49 PM  
Who cares. fark the oil industry.
 
2007-05-28 5:58:10 PM  
Better study the Constitution first, subby.

The Senate has to pass the law as well and the President has to sign it.

Bush has already said he'll veto this, if it ever comes across his desk.
 
2007-05-28 6:04:04 PM  
And the stupid continues to exude from DC...
 
2007-05-28 6:05:18 PM  
An-Unnecessarily-Long-Name: I think they are trying to keep the supplyers from creating a false low supply.

Pretty much what I was thinking. Purposely limiting production of gasoline so they can charge more per gallon is wrong and the oil companies have been seriously cashing in on that business model.
 
2007-05-28 6:05:32 PM  
dustman81: Bush has already said he'll veto this, if it ever comes across his desk.

Always an advocate of the consumer, that Bush.
 
2007-05-28 6:05:59 PM  
[image from img515.imageshack.us too old to be available]
It's still just a bill.
 
2007-05-28 6:06:18 PM  
newflash, the price of gas has little to do with supply and demand.
 
2007-05-28 6:08:06 PM  
Thir takin' owr rite to be gouged!!
 
2007-05-28 6:17:49 PM  
An-Unnecessarily-Long-Name: I think they are trying to keep the supplyers from creating a false low supply.

If they want to keep suppliers from creating artificial limits on supply, they would see to it that more refineries are built.

Then again, if you think the Bush administration is going to do anything to the oil industry, you're full of shiat.

TFA: The inconvenient fact is that there's no evidence of price rigging by Big Oil or the tens of thousands of independent service station owners across America.

The other inconvenient fact is that anybody who thinks that there is no price rigging is also full of shiat.
 
2007-05-28 6:19:36 PM  
Punishing the small business owner for something that's largely out of their control is pure genius.

When the politicians and their retinues of Secret Service agents start riding around in bulletproof Prius' and the like, I'll be impressed.
 
2007-05-28 6:22:40 PM  
An-Unnecessarily-Long-Name:
I think they are trying to keep the supplyers from creating a false low supply.
How's that tin hat fitting lately.

\supplies are restricted because communities will not let new refineries be built or let older ones be upgraded.
 
2007-05-28 6:24:13 PM  
JohnnyC Pretty much what I was thinking. Purposely limiting production of gasoline so they can charge more per gallon

Walk me through the economics of this and how all the Big Oil companies get together to limit supply.
 
2007-05-28 6:26:29 PM  
This is a big old pile of retarded.
 
2007-05-28 6:29:35 PM  
Kyosuke

\supplies are restricted because communities will not let new refineries be built or let older ones be upgraded.

Yeah, democracy is a biatch, isn't it? Oh, and before you spout any MORE nonsense, how about looking in to how many refineries Big Oil has even attempted to build?

/somewhere between none and not very many.
 
2007-05-28 6:30:48 PM  
Pick an issue and you'll find Slopinion Journal and Glorious Leader keeping each other company on the lonely wrong side
 
2007-05-28 6:33:40 PM  
The problem with this is that we are currently importing about 10% of our gasoline from refineries in Europe. If the wholesale gasoline price in the US isn't higher than the wholesale price in Europe plus transportation cost (which is higher than the transportation cost of oil), then those ships aren't going to come here. Europeans are currently seeing their gas prices increase not only because of the increase in the price of oil but also because some of their refined products are being shipped to the US instead of being sold to consumer there.

Imagine what would happen if suddenly 10% of the US supply of gasoline disappeared? It was be chaos. The SPR wouldn't help because it still would have to be refined and we don't have the excess capacity (tinfoil hat conspiracies aside).

/Not a fuel industry apologist
//Doesn't even own a car
 
2007-05-28 6:38:02 PM  
Atillathepun Oh, and before you spout any MORE nonsense, how about looking in to how many refineries Big Oil has even attempted to build?

What's even worse for the "it's the treehuggers' fault" folks, the reason why new refineries haven't been built is because it is much cheaper to expand existing ones because all the associated infrastructure is already in place. For the time period in question, expanded capacity has been added to existing refineries equal to about thirty new refineries. That's why you hear this excuse from AM radio and not the oil industry... it's too easy to refute but for the dittoheads, facts don't matter.
 
2007-05-28 6:40:48 PM  
timoteo2: Always an advocate of the consumer, that Bush.

I'd bet more that Bush knows this is a toothless law. One which would be ambiguous and hard to enforce, if enforceable at all. So there's no real reason to make it a law. It's really just congress wanting to look like they're doing everything they can for the little man.

JohnnyC: Pretty much what I was thinking. Purposely limiting production of gasoline so they can charge more per gallon is wrong and the oil companies have been seriously cashing in on that business model.

Actually, no business that is not run by the government has any responsibility to ramp up production so they could make a lower profit margin. Now, are they putting profits ahead of the good of the consumers? Yes, How do they get punished for this? Consumers get fed up and stop buying. They haven't even gotten to a point yet with price where people stop buying. There's no reason at all to change production, or lower prices.

If the government wants to affect big oil? Take away all the breaks and subsidies the oil industry gets. Tell them the money will be better spent studying and researching new fuel sources to lessen our dependency on oil.

Of course then the "big oil" will just pass the increased expenses on to the customer. Which will all get back around to "how long until people get fed up and drive less/buy less gas"??

Note how it always seems to get back around to the consumer? Astounding, ain't it?
 
2007-05-28 6:41:12 PM  
flaEsq: Slopinion Journal and Glorious Leader

I hope your summations are above this 6th grade level crap.
 
2007-05-28 6:43:55 PM  
How do they determine what is or isn't too much?
 
2007-05-28 6:47:49 PM  
Atillathepun:
Oh, and before you spout any MORE nonsense, how about looking in to how many refineries Big Oil has even attempted to build?
Let me give you a clue, dimwit: I live and work in the center of oil country. Because I attend oil conferences for a living (from a support position) I know what I'm talking about.

You, on the other hand, obviously don't. If you did, you might have enlightened us rather than just attacking with your nonsense.

EngineerAU:
expanded capacity has been added to existing refineries equal to about thirty new refineries.
Cite, please.
 
2007-05-28 6:57:14 PM  
There's no incentive for oil companies to build more refineries. Congress tried to pass a bill to subsidize the building of new oil refineries on old military installations after Katrina but that was shot down as corporate welfare for Big Oil.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, morons.
 
2007-05-28 6:58:15 PM  
The upside of expensive gas is reduced consumption (at least in theory), so "conservatives" may be inadvertently helping the environment by supporting the oil companies over the consumers.

Cleaner air, and think of how much it must piss them off to actually do any good for the world even if they didn't mean to.
 
2007-05-28 6:58:41 PM  
TFA: Far from withholding production to raise prices, U.S. gasoline production of 8.8 million barrels a day is higher than any time in history and refineries are getting more gas per barrel of oil than ever before.
 
2007-05-28 6:59:51 PM  
Oil companies are making BILLIONS of dollars in profit per quarter. If they wanted to build more refineries, they damn well could. Environmentalists and NIMBY people are irrelevant here, as Congress listens to those who have the most money.
 
2007-05-28 7:00:39 PM  
Congress is one to talk. For their profit, Big Oil locates, extracts, refines, transports and dispenses the oil to customers in voluntary transactions.
Gov't "profits" more from taxes than Big Oil on every gallon sold. For this they do...nothing. They just take it and it's not voluntary.
 
2007-05-28 7:02:18 PM  
Kyosuke - It sounds like you're getting a kick out of these replies.

Democrats are so cute when they try to interfere with the laws of economics.
 
2007-05-28 7:05:21 PM  
Yeah - the refineries *could* be made, but why? Americans and the world are only using more oil, and it effects ZERO to their bottom line. Where's the incentive to build more oil delivery infrastructure?

My biggest problem with oil/gas pricing is the concept of "price sticking", where prices are quick to go up when a negative price stimuli hits, but are slow to come back down when said stimuli is removed. WTF is up with that?
 
2007-05-28 7:09:37 PM  
Walt_Jizzney

That's common in a lot of industries, especially oligopolies (which the oil industry, and pretty much every industry with hideously expensive infrastruture, is). When the price of an input rises or demand outstrips supply, companies (usually) aren't willing to sell at a loss, so the price immediately goes up. When the price of the input drops, there isn't much of an incentive to be the first to drop prices, since your competitors can instantly do the same. Someone always does eventually, but that's why prices are stickier on the way down than they are on the way up.
 
2007-05-28 7:13:39 PM  
BigJake: Democrats are so cute when they try to interfere with the laws of economics.

Why can't we force them to build more refineries?! WHYYYYY?!?!?!

There a bunch of friggin toddlers throwing tantrums. Funnier yet is denial of environmental litigation in being a factor.
 
2007-05-28 7:15:02 PM  
Kyosuke
communities will not let new refineries be built or let older ones be upgraded.

You are out of your damn mind. Fields are open in AK. But it will cost the Oil companies $ to build new up to date drilling and refinery rigs. A small dip in their earnings is what they dont want.

They are creating false low supplies by not acting. False low supplies along with record proifits should be considered price fixing.
 
2007-05-28 7:15:57 PM  
AntiNorm
Oil companies are making BILLIONS of dollars in profit per quarter. If they wanted to build more refineries, they damn well could. Environmentalists and NIMBY people are irrelevant here, as Congress listens to those who have the most money.

Based on how much money oil companies have invested, I bet there BILLIONS of profit is not that extravagant. Probably just a normal rate of return.
 
2007-05-28 7:15:58 PM  
The Reverend Smith: I hope your summations are above this 6th grade level crap.

Oh lookie, another 28%er takes a dump in a thread. Loyal Slopinion Journal reader, are ya?
 
2007-05-28 7:16:17 PM  
Walt_Jizzney

My biggest problem with oil/gas pricing is the concept of "price sticking", where prices are quick to go up when a negative price stimuli hits, but are slow to come back down when said stimuli is removed. WTF is up with that?

I can't get behind that.

[image from i26.photobucket.com too old to be available]
 
2007-05-28 7:18:33 PM  
And the reason for all our problems? Ding ding ding...environmentalism. FTA: If Congress wants to locate genuine gas price villains, it should look in the mirror. Domestic refining capacity is stretched in part because environmental laws discourage the building of new refineries.

Shouldn't we instead be working on reducing our own demand. The American people have no one to blame but themselves for the higher gasoline prices. Despite waning supply, we continue to increase our demand. Couple that with the increasing demand of rising industrial economies, and what do we expect to happen? Instead of increasing our abilities to produce more gas, shouldn't we be working on getting by on less gasoline? We need to start thinking long term. These resources are finite, people.
 
2007-05-28 7:22:50 PM  
Heims: Based on how much money oil companies have invested, I bet there BILLIONS of profit is not that extravagant. Probably just a normal rate of return.

The point is that they have the money to build refineries, they just don't want to.
 
2007-05-28 7:22:53 PM  
flaEsq: Oh lookie, another 28%er takes a dump in a thread.

To what do you refer?

Loyal Slopinion Journal reader, are ya?

I read a lot of differnet things. Some of the publications I agree with and some I don't. However, I refer to all of them by their proper titles as I have matured beyond using disparaging terms for that of which I do not agree. The fact that you haven't is your cross to bear.
 
2007-05-28 7:23:14 PM  
Heims: Based on how much money oil companies have invested, I bet there BILLIONS of profit is not that extravagant. Probably just a normal rate of return.

Profit margin for the oil industry is something like 9 percent which is average for Fortune 500 companies and much much much lower than other sectors. I think the financial services sector is somewhere in the ballpark of 17-20 percent. They make "record profits" because they're making record revenues.

Hibno: Shouldn't we instead be working on reducing our own demand. The American people have no one to blame but themselves for the higher gasoline prices. Despite waning supply, we continue to increase our demand. Couple that with the increasing demand of rising industrial economies, and what do we expect to happen? Instead of increasing our abilities to produce more gas, shouldn't we be working on getting by on less gasoline? We need to start thinking long term. These resources are finite, people.

Ding ding ding. Winnar winnar chicken dinner
 
2007-05-28 7:23:38 PM  
Current gasoline prices: avg 3.22.
Current Federal Gas Tax: 18.4/cents a gallon
Daily US Gasoline Consumption: 384.7 million gallons a day
Daily US Govt. income from gas tax: $70.6 million
Total state gas taxes in Hawaii: 35.1 cents/gal
Total gas price in Hawaii minus state and federal taxes: 2.686

You think Big Oil is the only one getting rich off of gasoline? Think again.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gas_taxes_by_state_2002.html
 
2007-05-28 7:25:51 PM  
Anyway, you wanna lower gasoline prices? Convince state and federal to get rid of gas taxes.

/Good luck
 
2007-05-28 7:25:57 PM  
Hibno: The point is that they have the money to build refineries, they just don't want to.

Because there's no incentive for them to do so.
 
2007-05-28 7:27:19 PM  
gruntmints: Anyway, you wanna lower gasoline prices? Convince state and federal to get rid of gas taxes.

That wouldn't lower gas prices at all. The oil companies would just pocket the difference.
 
2007-05-28 7:27:45 PM  
YoungSwedishBlonde: Because there's no incentive for them to do so.

There is now.
 
2007-05-28 7:28:50 PM  
An-Unnecessarily-Long-Name:
But it will cost the Oil companies $ to build new up to date drilling and refinery rigs.
What's a "refinery rig"?

As far as drilling rigs go, They are being built as fast as possible, and the Chinese have become a major supplier of rigs for use in the US. The other major hold-up is labor to run these rigs. Unemployment rates in oil field areas are currently the lowest in the nation. (2.6% last time figures came out here in the Permian Basin.)

An-Unnecessarily-Long-Name:
They are creating false low supplies by not acting.
Bullshiat.

The oil that is still in the ground is harder and harder to retrieve. New refineries are almost impossible to build due to NIMBY problems. Currently operating refineries are running at maximum levels, and the one not running are that way due to normal maintenance schedules and/or weather issues (remember Katrina?), or just the fact that they are too old to keep safely operating.

Oil isn't bubbling up out of the ground on its own any more. It's expensive to get, it's expensive to transport, and it's expensive to market. Add to that the fact that demand is at all-time highs, and you get pricing like we see now.
 
2007-05-28 7:29:16 PM  
I wonder why noone ever suggests having the government build the damn refineries.
 
2007-05-28 7:31:20 PM  
The Reverend Smith: To what do you refer?

Wow. ADD much?

Loyal Slopinion Journal reader, are ya?

I read a lot of differnet things. Some of the publications I agree with and some I don't. However, I refer to all of them by their proper titles as I have matured beyond using disparaging terms for that of which I do not agree. The fact that you haven't is your cross to bear.


Get over yourself
 
2007-05-28 7:32:09 PM  
Bullshiat.

The oil that is still in the ground is harder and harder to retrieve. New refineries are almost impossible to build due to NIMBY problems. Currently operating refineries are running at maximum levels, and the one not running are that way due to normal maintenance schedules and/or weather issues (remember Katrina?), or just the fact that they are too old to keep safely operating.

Oil isn't bubbling up out of the ground on its own any more. It's expensive to get, it's expensive to transport, and it's expensive to market. Add to that the fact that demand is at all-time highs, and you get pricing like we see now.


Sooooo certain of all of this, aren't you? I mean, you must have some very good source for this, right?

So lets see a source that isn't blatantly ideological.
 
2007-05-28 7:32:31 PM  
Maybe Congress should just do what they do with cigarettes and increase the tax on gas by 50 cents per gallon per yer for the next 10 years or so until people get the idea to quit buying gas guzzlers and start using less gas.

Then they could take that money and use it to come up with a renewable, environmentally-sound solution for people.

And then everyone would be happy -- except the guys with billions invested in oil drilling equipment.

Hmmmmmm....

On second thought, maybe they should just do what they always do and pass some sort of "feel good" legislation that just wastes more money and kicks the problem down the road.
 
2007-05-28 7:32:40 PM  
bartink

Because we americans don't like it when the government controls private industry. Seriously. Name one thing that private industry does that the government also dips its hands into and tell me if the government seriously does it better?
 
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