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(Some Guy)   AP runs a story praising Cuba because you don't see homeless out on the streets. Oh sure, a lot of them don't have anything to eat, but still   (opinionjournal.com) divider line
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    More: Stupid  
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254 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Apr 2007 at 4:23 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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OlafTheBent
2007-04-24 3:07:29 PM  
How do Americans know this when they aren't allowed to go there?

... and the hookers are cheap too.

/**smokes a cigar**
 
flaEsq
2007-04-24 3:16:17 PM  
Damn Tarantula again. Why do we have a hardon for this cheap hack? And why is he afraid to hyperlink to the article?
 
flaEsq
2007-04-24 3:17:53 PM  
Oh there's the chicken's link...in the headline for his spooge
 
Cyberluddite [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2007-04-24 3:21:03 PM  
Subby is apparently unfamiliar with the concept of communism. All he's been told is that it's very, very, very, very evil, though regardless of whether or not it really is I'm sure he couldn't explain why he thinks it is.
 
TheConvincingSavant
2007-04-24 3:24:57 PM  
I may be mistaking your intentions here Cyberluddite, but are you saying Communism is good?
 
Flab [TotalFark]
2007-04-24 3:31:26 PM  
submitter: Oh sure, a lot of them don't have anything to eat, but still

I suppose the situation in better in Haiti or the Dominican Republic?
 
sigdiamond2000
2007-04-24 3:31:44 PM  
Will Weissert, Havana correspondent of the Associated Press, takes a tough, skeptical look at the government he has been assigned to cover. Well, no, he doesn't.

You're correct, Taranto. No, he doesn't. That's because it's not a piece about Cuba's government. It's specifically about Cubans' average life expectancy.

And if the CIA says it, it must be true:

Yes, James. The CIA is in league with the Cuban communists and the LIEberal MSM in a devious plot to deliberately distort the data in the CIA World Fact Book to make the US and President Bush look bad.

Jesus Flipping Christ...I wouldn't piss on Castro if he was on fire, but do people really need to get this worked up over something so farking trivial?
 
antisocialite
2007-04-24 3:34:31 PM  
TheConvincingSavant: I may be mistaking your intentions here Cyberluddite, but are you saying Communism is good?

Is capitalism?
 
The Stealth Hippopotamus
2007-04-24 3:37:35 PM  
Yes capitalism is good, wonderful, magnificent.

It's not perfect but it's the best we got
 
antisocialite
2007-04-24 3:40:55 PM  
The Stealth Hippopotamus: It's not perfect

Exactly, it ain't. Neither is communism. The imperfection--e pluribus unum--with communism is, in the end, its contrary to human nature. Capitalism and human nature are pretty compatible.
 
TheConvincingSavant
2007-04-24 3:54:40 PM  
antisocialite, I'm not making an argument either way. Just looking for opinions on Communism.
 
Cyberluddite [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2007-04-24 3:54:42 PM  
2007-04-24 03:24:57 PM TheConvincingSavant [TotalFark]
I may be mistaking your intentions here Cyberluddite, but are you saying Communism is good?

No. For some really poor countries it may be better than the system it replaces, but generally it doesn't work out in practice.

My point is just that Subby seems to fail to appreciate that the goal of communist societies is to ensure that nobody starves even though nobody gets rich either (in theory at least, if not always in practice). It's quite possible there are not a lot of people in Cuba starving to death, despite what the headline suggests. There are plenty of other reasons to dislike communism, but the bottom line is that Cuba likely has fewer people going without food than many non-Communist countries.
 
HumbleGod
2007-04-24 4:02:33 PM  
Cyberluddite: Subby is apparently unfamiliar with the concept of communism. All he's been told is that it's very, very, very, very evil, though regardless of whether or not it really is I'm sure he couldn't explain why he thinks it is.

TheConvincingSavant: I may be mistaking your intentions here Cyberluddite, but are you saying Communism is good?

I think he was saying that many people, including subby, can't read any statement without automatically reading a bias into it.

Thanks for proving him right.
 
albo
2007-04-24 4:06:33 PM  
There are plenty of other reasons to dislike communism, but the bottom line is that Cuba likely has fewer people going without food than many non-Communist countries.

yeah, but that's little comfort to cubans whose futures are being squandered and lives wasted by their leaders and their horrible ideology and mismanagement of their country. cuba and its citizens have so much potential that has been wasted by castro and the regime. they have been beaten down and taught to accept the gruel they've been given with a smile. that's a horrible life for a human
 
SchlingFo
2007-04-24 4:07:59 PM  
I think Communism will fall when someone reports on the conditions of Cuba in an accurate and unbiased manner.
 
antisocialite
2007-04-24 4:08:35 PM  
TheConvincingSavant: Just looking for opinions on Communism.

You'll find kinder opinions on Socialism. The lines between the two are fine, if any, but people I've met do enjoy making the distinction. The #1 argument that I've heard is that a "fertile soil" for Socialism is a highly industrialized society and not the more simplistic 2nd-world societies we see Communism practiced currently. Russia, for instance, was NOT the place to have such a "grand experiment", 1880's London was more apt for such a thing to take place. Virtually none of the countries currently practicing communism had the reasons to choose that road to travel, especially at the time of its adoption, let alone now. China might be the sole exception at this point.

Cyberluddite: Cuba likely has fewer people going without food than many non-Communist countries.

If Cuba was a true communist state, then yes. I'm not making the statement that Cuba is or is not, however.
 
SchlingFo
2007-04-24 4:09:40 PM  
antisocialite,

Is capitalism?

It's neither good nor bad.

It simply is.
 
antisocialite
2007-04-24 4:11:26 PM  
SchlingFo: It simply is.

So it goes... ;)
 
binnster
2007-04-24 4:13:00 PM  
That's not a hair question.
 
m0llusk
2007-04-24 4:20:38 PM  
Cubans don't generally lack for food, just opportunity and freedom. We can be a part of turning that around, but the methods that have failed for the last half century or so might not be the best or only way to help move Cuba forward.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-04-24 4:24:17 PM  
Cyberluddite:

the goal of communist societies is to ensure that nobody starves even though nobody gets rich either (only in theory, at least, if not always never in practice)


Fixed that for ya.
 
TheConvincingSavant
2007-04-24 4:36:26 PM  
I always thought of Communism as a very well-meaning theory. A theory that would work out rather well if people weren't greedy, or equal in every respect.
 
for good or for awesome
2007-04-24 4:37:15 PM  
About a year ago I made a crude boat and sailed the 90 miles from Key West to Cuba. I lived like a king on all the government handouts and had all my cancer cured by my personal trainer / doctor. Unfortunately I was found out and sent back to this hell-hole known as the U. S. of A..
 
Prysorra
2007-04-24 4:40:21 PM  
Time for some eye-opening fun.

http://www.gentiuno.com/articulo.asp?articulo=2167

You mean this health care?

[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]

[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]

[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]

[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]

[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]
[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]
[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]
[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]
[image from gentiuno.com too old to be available]


In a well run hospital they clean EVERYTHING. These conditions are completely inexcusable - no excuse whatsoever.
 
Diogenes [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2007-04-24 4:42:26 PM  
There'a a lack of variety in food in Cuba, not a lack of food.
 
Karma Chameleon
2007-04-24 4:45:31 PM  
Prysorra

You mean this health care?

What do pictures of Walter Reed have to do with anything?
 
rrtt22
2007-04-24 4:50:46 PM  
Its a great place to live despite all of the people risking death to leave.

/sarcasm
 
2wolves [TotalFark]
2007-04-24 4:51:09 PM  
Thread over Karma Chameleon wins.
 
Arnold T Pants
2007-04-24 4:59:54 PM  
Cyberluddite: No. For some really poor countries it may be better than the system it replaces, but generally it doesn't work out in practice.

Umm, have you ever wondered why that country is poor?
 
flaEsq
2007-04-24 5:00:06 PM  
TheConvincingSavant: antisocialite, I'm not making an argument either way. Just looking for opinions on Communism.

Why?
 
2wolves [TotalFark]
2007-04-24 5:09:24 PM  
Arnold T Pants

U.S. embargo for $500 Alex.
 
Fart_Machine
2007-04-24 5:12:40 PM  
Arnold T Pants
Umm, have you ever wondered why that country is poor?

Perhaps the embargo has something to do with it.
 
Prysorra
2007-04-24 5:16:07 PM  
Karma Chameleon

What do pictures of Walter Reed have to do with anything?

Look - I know it's disgraceful how little (and how shiatty) attention we're giving our veterans. I've been through Medical Care, and it's amazing soldiers don't die from such tragic stupidity and apathy on the part of bureaucrats.

That does NOT excuse ignoring conditions in poor and isolated countries with cute little quips.

It's not Walter Reed anyway. I mean seriously - the U.S. military has even worse color coordination
 
Korovyov
2007-04-24 5:17:30 PM  
Fart_Machine --
An embargo that no other nation honors? Riiiiiiiight.
 
OlafTheBent
2007-04-24 5:17:32 PM  
Arnold T Pants: Umm, have you ever wondered why that country is poor?

They were poor before Communism too... except for the American owned businesses of course.
 
Karma Chameleon
2007-04-24 5:23:00 PM  
Prysorra

That does NOT excuse ignoring conditions in poor and isolated countries with cute little quips.

If only we cared about that stuff, though.

/I do personally, just sayin'
 
TheConvincingSavant
2007-04-24 5:28:28 PM  
2007-04-24 05:00:06 PM flaEsq

Why?

Discussion is what we do here. Well, it's sometimes what we do here.
 
Fart_Machine
2007-04-24 5:35:53 PM  
Korovyov
An embargo that no other nation honors? Riiiiiiiight.

Given their close proximity of the US, imports and exports to other nations are more expensive.

The irony is that we would have broken Castro's grip long ago if trade relations were normalized.
 
thegoodthebadthedumb
2007-04-24 5:42:08 PM  
Prysorra
You mean this health care?

Did you bother to RTFA? It's about the fact that Cuban life expectancy is about on par with that of Americans.

That says infinitely more about their health care system than your 5 second Google image search.
 
Sweaty Jerry
2007-04-24 5:45:25 PM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin

Actually, it's true dude. They don't starve in Cuba. They don't starve here either, or in any other first world country, but Cuba is the only really "communist" state in existence where people do not starve (China not withstanding because people do starve there and it's not communist.)

At the fall of the Soviet Union, the state of Cuba, cut off from the nearby agricultural giant that is the United States, had to move its entire farming system off of a mechanical, oil-intensive Soviet scheme and onto what amounts to an organic farming system. Everyone predicted failure and mass starvation. Nobody starved.

Say what you will, but without an embargo from day one, that Marxist state (if it had persisted) would have been the most successful ever. If we cut this shiat out now, it'd probably thrive.
 
Skeptos
2007-04-24 5:50:21 PM  
albo

yeah, but that's little comfort to cubans whose futures are being squandered and lives wasted by their leaders and their horrible ideology and mismanagement of their country

For a second there, I thought you were talking about America under Bush and the neocons.
 
Prysorra
2007-04-24 5:58:34 PM  
"Did you bother to RTFA? It's about the fact that Cuban life expectancy is about on par with that of Americans.

That says infinitely more about their health care system than your 5 second Google image search."

Who exactly do you think is collecting these statistics?

A nation that cracks down on journalists that report anything other than preachy propaganda cannot be trusted.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250082003

Would you trust Walter Duranty? Probably. After all, Ukraine was well run, and *everyone* was fed right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty

Right?
 
McNip
2007-04-24 6:06:24 PM  
Whoa there Sweaty Jerry.

It's not our fault that Cuba can't afford farming machines and oil to produce food.

And saying that if we allowed trade with them that they would thrive, well that just shows how pathetic communism is. Sure, they have a WHOLE WORLD with which to trade, but if America cuts them off, thats why they are a shiat hole country.
 
flaEsq
2007-04-24 6:14:04 PM  
TheConvincingSavant: Discussion is what we do here. Well, it's sometimes what we do here.

That's awfully presumptious
 
shanec2000
2007-04-24 6:16:44 PM  
binnster

That's not a hair question.

Dr. Pepper THROUGH THE NOSE! You owe me a new sinus cavity!

I hope that joke never dies, it had me rolling for days, silly Bostonians.
 
Fart_Machine
2007-04-24 6:19:28 PM  
Prysorra
Who exactly do you think is collecting these statistics?

According to the article it's listed in the CIA World Factbook.
 
Sweaty Jerry
2007-04-24 6:31:14 PM  
McNip

Whoa there Sweaty Jerry.

It's not our fault that Cuba can't afford farming machines and oil to produce food.

And saying that if we allowed trade with them that they would thrive, well that just shows how pathetic communism is. Sure, they have a WHOLE WORLD with which to trade, but if America cuts them off, thats why they are a shiat hole country.

Oh, I agree on your first points. It's certainly not our fault that Cuba can't afford farming machines and the like: I was just pointing out the fact that, after being entirely dependent on the USSR for such things, they shook it off and survived. They got it done, no one died, and that should be recognized after an ignorant subby said "a lot of them don't have anything to eat".

Your characterization of the embargo is somewhat wrong. Check out how it actually operates. By that I mean, the shiat we do to firms that do business in or with Cuba. It dissuades many companies who would do so otherwise.

I'm not praising Castro, but I'm saying that within the system there, the people would not live in the state of deprivation that they do if it weren't for our insane, hypocritical (uh-huh) embargo.
 
jso2897 [TotalFark]
2007-04-24 6:37:08 PM  
"Umm, have you ever wondered why that country is poor?"

American and European people have a very distorted view of what life in the Carribean is like. We visit as tourists with money, and come away with the impression of a tropical paradise. In truth, with little arable land, sparse natural resources, and geographically contained overpopulation, the carribean has always been a hellhole of poverty, famine, disease, and subsistence lifestyles. And before the usual gang of idiots start spouting their romanticisms, I would point out that there is no indication that life was particularly easy for the now extinct original inhabitants before outsiders came, either.
For all it's beauty, it's actually not a very friendly environment for man, and IMHO, there will never be prosperity there unless it is imported. In the utopian world of tomorrow, the Carribean will be a theme park, and no one will be expected to actually LIVE there.
Neither Capitalism nor Communism will ever make that region prosperous and self-sufficient.
 
thegoodthebadthedumb
2007-04-24 7:02:40 PM  
Prysorra
Who exactly do you think is collecting these statistics?

According to TFA, which you obviously didn't read, it's the CIA.
 
Prysorra
2007-04-24 7:33:55 PM  
What's with the renewal of trust in the CIA?

And it's painfully obvious that you read the article word by word and yet didn't actually read the article linked to by Fark.

[image from i55.photobucket.com too old to be available]


"And if the CIA says it, it must be true:

Cuba's average life expectancy is 77.08 years--second in Latin America after Puerto Rico and more than 11 years above the world average, according to the 2007 CIA World Fact Book.

It says Cuban life expectancy averages 74.85 years for men and 79.43 years for women, compared with 75.15 and 80.97 respectively for Americans.

Weissert doesn't tell us the source of the CIA's information. Do these numbers come from Cuba's totalitarian regime, and if so, shouldn't we automatically take them with a grain of salt? There are some obvious questions a serious reporter might want to ask about these numbers. The most obvious one: Do they include people who die trying to escape?"

....

"Two years ago we took the New York Times's Nick Kristof to task for a bogus claim that the U.S. infant-mortality rate is no better than Cuba's and far worse than those of other advanced countries. It turns out the reason for this is that American physicians are alone in making heroic efforts to save premature infants, who in other countries would be discarded and never even be recorded as having been born. The higher prevalence of death at age zero would have a downward effect on America's life expectancy."

Oh look, even Wikipedia manages to mention this distortion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality#Comparing_infant_mortality_rates
 
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