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(LA Times)   Johns Hopkins professor and New Republic editor wonders, "Was 9/11 really that bad?"   (latimes.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass  
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14284 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jan 2007 at 10:10 AM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2007-01-30 6:48:22 AM  
The "Dumbass" is correct in almost every particular in his column. Still, it won't matter because the vast majority of people will react just like subby
 
2007-01-30 7:45:13 AM  
It was pretty damned bad. I go to school only a few miles from Ground Zero. It shook up New York badly and laid the groundwork for the Bush supremacy and the Iraq War.

For New York City, though, it wasn't too bad. The upswing in tourism and the reconstruction funds are helping fuel massive economic growth in the city.
 
2007-01-30 8:16:22 AM  
Well, it was worse than the shooting of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria.

/And we should have stayed out of that war, too.
 
2007-01-30 8:16:23 AM  
Russia was unable to retalliate against the German onslaught using conventional weapons, hence the slash-and-burn policy.

Note: it would have taken three consecutive 9/11 attacks AT MOST before the US unleashed a nuclear retalliation on known terrorist hotspots, so his argument is pretty much moot.
 
2007-01-30 8:19:55 AM  
9/11 was obviously pretty bad because of the global change it caused, but I think his point that 3,000 people dying at once doesn't match other great massacres like Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Bhopal.
 
2007-01-30 8:20:40 AM  
Rather, I think his point IS VALID that...
 
2007-01-30 8:28:49 AM  
We totally overreacted. When Timothy McVeigh bombed Oklahoma City, he was arrested and prosecuted. We didn't bomb the shiat out of two different countries as a retaliation for an isolated criminal action. We got the bad guys, and that was the end of it.

Had we reacted to 9/11 likewise, the Taliban would still be in power in Afghanistan, and their opium crop would be non-existent. Yeah, you had the human rights violations going on, but at least they were keeping it in the family. Their cheap heroin is ruining lives all over the world.

And Saddam would still be in power in Iraq. But after Desert Storm, he kept his tyranny within Iraq's borders. We went in and totally destabilized Iraq, turning it into a magnet for maniacs from all over the region, making the entire region far more volatile than it was before we went in there.
 
2007-01-30 8:29:58 AM  
I gave Bush a blank cheque to do with what he did.
So it was a farking disaster
 
2007-01-30 8:38:48 AM  
bob_justice Bhopal a massacre ??? Hardly a wartime act.

Although it is likely that is was an act of deliberate sabotage on the part of a disgruntled worker (I know old-time Union Carbide people) exacerbated by the crappy conditions of a 3rd World chemical plant
 
2007-01-30 8:51:11 AM  
Monday morning quarterbacking is fun to watch...
 
2007-01-30 9:06:01 AM  
I got to go home early from work, so it had its plusses.

/one-way, window seat, please
 
2007-01-30 9:14:00 AM  
Well, I suppose it could have been worse. If it had happened on the evening of the State of the Union address instead of 9/11, and if the target had been the US Capitol instead of the twin towers. Yeah, then we'd have Labor Secretary Unmemorable or whoever to pick up the pieces as new president, we'd have to elect a new congress to put into a new US Capitol, etc.

That would have been bad.

But yeah, 9/11 was still pretty awful, you know...
 
2007-01-30 9:18:50 AM  
Candygram4Mongo: But yeah, 9/11 was still pretty awful, you know...

Death always in--but he does have a point, one which I've been making for a while now.

Of course, that's because I'm a...what's the current phrase? Terrorist-loving librul amoral moral relativist intellectual elitist apostate?

/Bit of a bugger to figure out exactly what labels apply these days.
 
2007-01-30 9:25:58 AM  
Well, only 2800 died at Pearl Harbor.

Should we have stayed out of that war, too?

Why did we declare war on Germany after Japan attacked us?

Maybe there are/were issues at play that our pundits choose to ignore.
 
2007-01-30 9:29:22 AM  
CheddarPants
Had we reacted to 9/11 likewise, the Taliban would still be in power in Afghanistan, and their opium crop would be non-existent. Yeah, you had the human rights violations going on, but at least they were keeping it in the family. Their cheap heroin is ruining lives all over the world.


That is one spot I differ. I absolutely agree we should not have gone into Iraq, but I was fine with flattening Afghanistan for sheltering bin Laden, and making it an object lesson for any other country that thought to do likewise. We could have used the troops now in Iraq to lock the country down hard, and put pressure on Pakistan to help search their side of the border.

And then once it was secure and bin Laden was at the end of a rope, we could have helped rebuild the country, and for far cheaper in both lives and money than Iraq. Bush, being an utter idiot with a short attention span, thought otherwise.
 
2007-01-30 9:31:21 AM  
as victor hanson points out, democracies are slow to fight, but when they do they fight to crush their enemy and win overwhelmingly--see WWII. we had to respond, and respond in great force to 9/11--by their actions and admissions our opponents only respect the sword. and that's our problem in iraq. we didn't keep grinding them down after taking the country initially
 
2007-01-30 10:08:29 AM  
The headline was more than a little bit coarse, but the article is actually a pretty decent attempt to give some historical perspective. I don't think his objective was to diminish 9/11 or criticize anyone who feels it was a great event.

My favorite part:

My favorite part is where all the people come in and lambaste him for daring to speak this, yet they will minimize the 3,000+ killed in Iraq by comparing them to the numbers of dead in Vietnam or WWII. Pretty awesome.
 
2007-01-30 10:10:54 AM  
go speed racer, go!
 
2007-01-30 10:13:35 AM  
Yeah. It sorta was. The Iraqi war is dumber than dog sweaters. But as to the actual 911 guys, I hope they see their own blood before they die.
 
2007-01-30 10:14:04 AM  
What, 3000 Yankees died and I should care?

The South shall rise again!
 
2007-01-30 10:14:22 AM  
Yes it was!! Long division sucks!!

/dint RTFA
 
2007-01-30 10:14:56 AM  
Ask the NeoCons...it was pretty damn great for them!!

Benjamin Netanyahu's first reaction to 9/11 was to say that it was good for Israel. The dancing Israelis, 5 Mossad agents detained in New York after celebrating while the towers burned and for violating their visa status (they were "working" illegaly as "movers") told their arresting officer that "we are not your problem, we are Israeli. your problem is our problem, the palestinians are your problem." A video showing Palestinians celebrating in Gaza was proven to be a fraud staged by the Israeli military by offering candy to Palestinians. Many Americans saw the initial report and never heard the clarification and explanation of the video's true provenance.
 
2007-01-30 10:14:57 AM  
Article asks: "Has the American reaction to the attacks in fact been a massive overreaction?"

Yes.

 
2007-01-30 10:15:24 AM  
Well, as someone who ran from the impact of plane #2 while debris rained down on us (and crippled a co-worker), and had his desk destroyed by the collapse of tower #1, and who watched about 50 people fall/jump to their death, I can say...

...yes, it was.

/resisting the urge to go all "internet tough guy"
 
2007-01-30 10:16:01 AM  
hmmmmm......yes?
 
2007-01-30 10:16:18 AM  
three buildings demolished, one with only broken windows

millions of idiots who suddenly felt justified in their hatred

government lies, cover-ups (thanks, Ms. Rice, you scabrous whore)

a huge insurance payout

potentially millions of New Yorkers with mesothelioma

a breakdown of the laws of physics that allowed superstructures to collapse from brief exposure to relatively cool flames

Nah, it was important, just not for the reasons you may think

Oh, and CRYING EAGLE HURRRrrrRR

God, nothing sickens me more than a bully who shakes its little fists in rage when it gets a bloody nose
 
2007-01-30 10:16:24 AM  
The author doesn't put 9/11 in context. The attack on the WTC complex was the latest in a long line of terror attacks and bombings against US interests going back to 1979.

9/11 is the symbol of Islam; fiery death and war on unbelievers. It may not have been as extreme as Hiroshima or the fire-bombing of Dresden, but it was the first large-scale attack of global Islam against the USA.

Much more significant than the editorial suggests.
 
2007-01-30 10:16:40 AM  
It's just a flesh wound!
 
2007-01-30 10:16:55 AM  
Whether our response to 9/11 was an "overreaction" kind of misses the point. As do most people when discussing terrorism.

Look, people. We supposedly went after Iraq to "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here". That's crap. We will never, ever fight them here, no matter what we do over there. That's not what terrorism is about. It's not about war. Or direct conflict. At all.

Terrorists have no desire to occupy and/or destroy our country. Never have. Oh, they might if they had any reason to believe they could, but they don't, and they know it. They don't have the manpower, resources or mobility to inflict even the tiniest fraction of the damage necessary to bring us to our knees. They can't possibly kill enough people, destroy enough resources, or occupy enough territory (or any at all, in this case) to wage anything like a conventional war. We will never see squadrons of terrorists in our streets capturing our towns. We will never see terrorist bomber fleets over our cities conducting surgical strikes against military/industrial targets. It will never, ever happen.

Because they know that they will never be able to inflict the kinds of casualties necessary to achieve any kind of military victory whatsoever, they don't try. Terrorist attacks are not military actions. They're political. They are designed to use what little resource they have to take (relatively) few lives, and do (relatively) little damage, but to do so in such a spectacular and horrific way that it terrifies the public and triggers actions that are beneficial to the terrorist agenda. And they do this just often enough to keep up appearances and maintain a certain level of fear in their opponent.

To that end, 9/11 was a phenomenally successful action. Not to trivialize anything that happened on that day - it was tragic, no doubt - but from a military perspective, 3000 deaths and a couple of buildings, no matter how impressive, is a papercut to a country like the U.S. From a political perspective, however, the 9/11 attack was massively impactful. Since then, we as a country have been living in such fear that we have surrendered basic freedoms (more than we would have tolerated otherwise, anyway), we have weakened global diplomatic ties, and we have bogged down our military in a foreign occupation that has done very little, or nothing, to combat terrorism, yet weakens our national defense.

At the same time, that foreign occupation is a galvanizing presence both in the Middle East and at home, provoking divisiveness and civil unrest, providing the sort of instability and fervor on both sides that play very well to the kinds of sabre-rattling and propaganda that further the radical Islamic agenda. Again, to wonder if our response to 9/11 is an "overreaction" is missing the point - any military response at all is a nonsequitur. We're fighting the wrong war.

It's no surprise to me that we haven't seen any major attempts at attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11. They haven't needed any. The residual effects from the 9/11 attack are still more helpful to them than they could possibly have hoped. Our presence in Iraq is far more beneficial to their cause than anything they could manage to do over here.

Bottom line is, success in the "war on terror" is not, has never been, and will never be measured by body count. Yes, we lost 3,000 American lives and a few big buildings on 9/11. But when you stop to look at and understand the actual goals of those attacks, it was a massive victory, but only because we have given it to them. And we are continuing to enable them, because apparently we just don't get it.
 
2007-01-30 10:17:23 AM  
I bet people enjoy breathing in the particulate that was created after the explosion and collapse in that area
 
2007-01-30 10:17:50 AM  
We lost like 3,000 people and a billion or so dollar impact to the economy to that day? Then we lost another 3,500 or so in the war and another couple of billion to it?

How many people do you think die a year in the war on drugs? How much property do you think is taken, destroyed or lost? We've been at the "war on drugs" since the 80's and if we treated the body count and property lost the same as we did the war in Iraq and terrorist bombings of the US and all our embassy's the USS Cole the War on Drugs would still be kicking ass and taking names.

Police can take your property to court, keep it, and sell it before you run out of appeals. They can do this and never convict you of a crime. Its called Forfieture, and its scary.

Remember how the mob got started? The prohibition in the early part of the last century. And we still have to deal with the mob. It would seem history's lesson is you illegalize drugs and a huge black market and crime wave opens up around it to keep up the supply.

So I say we've lost more people to drugs than terrorism and we're freaking out about terrorism a lot more than all the rights and lives lost to drugs. I guess because terrorism makes better tv.
 
2007-01-30 10:18:13 AM  
"... but I was fine with flattening Afghanistan for sheltering bin Laden, and making it an object lesson for any other country that thought to do likewise. "

Everybody in the world felt like that, even Ghadaffi (or however I'm supposed to spell his name). Ralph Nader would have invaded Afghanistan.
 
2007-01-30 10:18:49 AM  
Dumbass is right.

The Spanish Flu killed millions just after the First World War. By that measure we are really overreacting to Bird Flu and Ebola whose combined death toll is in the hundreds combined, right?

Dickhead.
 
2007-01-30 10:18:50 AM  
stebain wins.
 
2007-01-30 10:19:07 AM  
From what I've seen, and maybe this is a recent phenomenon, many Americans seem to imagine their lives are more valuable than those of others.
 
2007-01-30 10:19:20 AM  
Observatory: Benjamin Netanyahu's first reaction to 9/11 was to say that it was good for Israel. The dancing Israelis, 5 Mossad agents detained in New York after celebrating while the towers burned and for violating their visa status (they were "working" illegaly as "movers") told their arresting officer that "we are not your problem, we are Israeli. your problem is our problem, the palestinians are your problem." A video showing Palestinians celebrating in Gaza was proven to be a fraud staged by the Israeli military by offering candy to Palestinians. Many Americans saw the initial report and never heard the clarification and explanation of the video's true provenance.

Do you have a source for any of this?
 
2007-01-30 10:20:56 AM  
DuncanMhor: The "Dumbass" is correct in almost every particular in his column. Still, it won't matter because the vast majority of people will react just like subby

By submitting the story?

I mean, that's the only reaction I see. I dunno...maybe you know the submitter more...intimately.
 
2007-01-30 10:21:19 AM  
If it wasn't that bad, why is anyone trying to sensationalize it over five years later?

/oh, that's right, to squeeze that last few dollars out
 
2007-01-30 10:21:26 AM  
real shaman: Why did we declare war on Germany after Japan attacked us?

I'm pretty sure Germany declared war on us as soon as we declared war on Japan.
 
2007-01-30 10:21:29 AM  
Sadly we didn't go after the oil..Saudi Arabia. Would it have been practical? probably not as they pretty much ARE OPEC.

But it would have been the right thing to do.
 
2007-01-30 10:21:40 AM  
HulkHands: stebain wins.

Seconded.
 
2007-01-30 10:21:54 AM  
Candygram4Mongo

We wouldn't have to worry about a labor secretary picking up the pieces because we would have Jack Ryan.
/Executive Orders
//Tom Clancy
 
2007-01-30 10:22:14 AM  
Predalien: one with only broken windows

your a idiot

[image from img360.imageshack.us too old to be available]

 
2007-01-30 10:23:10 AM  
No.
 
2007-01-30 10:23:21 AM  
real shaman:

Why did we declare war on Germany after Japan attacked us?

We didn't. Germany declared war on us.

The real question is, why did Hitler make such a boneheaded move as that? He was trying to honor the "pact of steel", or so he said, but that treaty only guaranteed that Germany would declare war if the US attacked Japan, not the other way around.
The American public had been mostly against getting involved in the European war and, as of December 7th, was totally focused on beating Japan. Hitler could have kept his mouth shut and continued stomping on Russia, so why did he do it?
Roosevelt desperately wanted to send troops to fight Germany, and he did everything he could to help the European allies, but he couldn't declare war because public opinion was against it. Hitler handed him his solution on a silver platter by declaring war against the US on December 11th. Why? I dunno. Maybe he was nuts.
 
2007-01-30 10:23:32 AM  
Decewnt? Perspective?

This dipshiat is talking out of both sides of his head. How anything related to 9/11 can even be considered to WWII is beyond comprehension. This is a war against FANATICS who do not run a country, want to destroy the world, are as uncivilized as they are fanatic, decry peace as a waste of time, and would love nothing better than to crush the economies of the world. Why? Because they're indoctrinated into crazydom from a very early age to think that they have the moral right and accompanying indignation to think if their message is not the ONLY message, than all others must die. Again, they do not represent a country or even a block of them, but rather a twisted and unrevokable ideal that if you're not with them, you must die. No matter what the cost.

So, we're in a war that to win means to stay even. A war of idealogies. It's expensive. It's also not a war we started. Get over it. Bush didn't create the problem, neither did Clinton. I think there has been overwhelming restraint that the Middle East HASN"T been made into a giant glass parking lot. It shows we have grown up as a country and are capable of handling the awesome responsibility of nuclear power. And it is also a strong reason we as a nation oppose countries such as Iran and North Korea from becoming nuclear powers. They are the nurseries for the terrorist idealogies.

This time, the "enemy" isn't a state. It is a mindset, one in which they want total genocide. We will see chemical and biological warfare in this decade. You can bank on it. And when a major city is wiped out with MILLIONS dead, we'll realize that you can't turn the other cheek because you will most definitely get blindsided. THAT is the message that this war has taught.
 
2007-01-30 10:24:10 AM  
CheekyMunky, spot on
 
2007-01-30 10:24:12 AM  
It was PLANNED to make us over-react.
To make us afriad, and do stupid stupid knee-jerk things.
That's why it's called TERRORism.

Good thing we saw through their clever plan and didn't do anything foolish and shortsighted over the last five years.

What?
 
2007-01-30 10:24:31 AM  
You know, only 5 guys died in the boston massacre. Where the hell did we get off having a whole revolution, and killing thousands of british and americans for that?

If you want to view the actions the US took after 9/11 as "revenge", then yes, one could say it might have been a little heavy handed.

The actions are\were\should have been (depending on your current political view) intended to try and prevent and solve some of the problems which led to 9/11 in order to keep it from happening again.

It is a well written article however, and the guy does make some good points.
 
2007-01-30 10:25:43 AM  
cxjohn

If you actually read his article, he makes those very points.
 
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