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(Some Guy)   A school in Little Rock offered bonuses to teachers for improved student testing. Naturally, students' scores jumped 29 percent. Even more naturally, parents love it. Most natural of all: Teachers' unions are forcing them to stop   (opinionjournal.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass  
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11559 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 19 Jan 2007 at 10:40 AM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



250 Comments     (+0 »)


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2007-01-19 12:45:13 AM  
Yay! My boy can take standardized tests!
So what if he's incapable of learning anything else.
 
2007-01-19 12:46:46 AM  
Vouchers.
 
2007-01-19 12:49:16 AM  
*cough*cheatingforbonuses*cough*
 
2007-01-19 12:50:20 AM  
Nerdlinger
Yay! My boy can take standardized tests!
So what if he's incapable of learning anything else.


Um, if your boy can't perform on standardized tests....he isn't learning anything else. To say that standardized testing prevents education is like saying that driving a go-kart prevents you from learning to drive a car.
 
2007-01-19 1:04:42 AM  
Wraithbane: To say that standardized testing prevents education is like saying that driving a go-kart prevents you from learning to drive a car.

to say that standardized tests are a benchmark for education is like saying go-kart driving prowess is a benchmark for driving on real roads.

/different rules and skills.
 
2007-01-19 1:07:59 AM  
Thenixon: to say that standardized tests are a benchmark for education is like saying go-kart driving prowess is a benchmark for driving on real roads.

To say that driving a go-kart does nothing to prepare you for driving a real car is like saying fire drills do nothing to prepare you for a real fire.

On the other hand, I suppose if the gummint had its way, we'd all be saying that the best way to prepare for driving a real car would be to talk about how it FEELS to drive a real car without ever getting near one except to practice putting condoms on the gearshift.
 
2007-01-19 1:11:15 AM  
Wraithbane: Um, if your boy can't perform on standardized tests....he isn't learning anything else

I see someone missed the point. While it is true that there are people who don't fare well on these sorts of tests despite knowing the material, the big problem here is the false positives this type of system creates.

We are generating children who can do little more than take standardized tests which have essentially zero use in life after high school. But because our nation is increasingly moving towards a single flawed metric for measuring school and teacher performance, there will always be more and more pressure to do nothing in schools but prep for the tests. See the story last year about the girl who was suspended for refusing to answer a question on one of these tests because it would cost the school money, for one example of how silly things have already become.

But to put things in your type of car analogy, what I'm saying is that knowing the traffic laws of your city doesn't mean you can actually drive a car.
 
2007-01-19 1:16:17 AM  
*cough*cheatingforbonuses*cough*

Read Freakonomics for further information.
 
2007-01-19 1:21:38 AM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin: the best way to prepare for driving a real car would be to talk about how it FEELS to drive a real car without ever getting near one except to practice putting condoms on the gearshift.

haha! drivers ed in mass! 30 hours of that and gory accident vids before you touch a car.

but to the issue at hand, go-karts and standardized tests are races which recognize nothing but speed and precision in a rigid format. life and driving a car involve adaptation, interpretation of complex rules and situations, etc. is it an indicator? yes. a basis for withholding a student, i'd trust the teacher with daily interaction over a computer bank outside the state capital. i've aced every standardized test they ever threw at me, but it hasn't gotten me a job in the last few months.
 
2007-01-19 1:24:05 AM  
Thenixon: i've aced every standardized test they ever threw at me, but it hasn't gotten me a job in the last few months.

You should get a job teaching kids how to ace those tests.
 
2007-01-19 1:41:42 AM  
Thenixon: to say that standardized tests are a benchmark for education is like saying go-kart driving prowess is a benchmark for driving on real roads.

/different rules and skills.


XXX

Nerdlinger
But to put things in your type of car analogy, what I'm saying is that knowing the traffic laws of your city doesn't mean you can actually drive a car.

So the solution isn't to ask any question about the traffic laws? The arguments against standardized testing are flawed, if they can pass a standardized test, then they did learn something. You know, like addition, subtraction, algebra, history...etc.

What exactly is it you don't think he'll be able to learn?
 
2007-01-19 1:42:44 AM  
Ack...sorry about that Thenixon, I was going to give a really good reply, but Merv's fire drill analogy did it better....
 
2007-01-19 2:03:09 AM  
Wraithbane: Merv's fire drill analogy did it better....

better than hardcore XXX action anyway... bonuses for teachers, it has been shown, will cause some percentage of teachers to cheat. bonuses are what the article was about, and that's all i have to say about that.

Nerdlinger: You should get a job teaching kids how to ace those tests.

nah, i hate trying to teach stupid people.
 
2007-01-19 2:06:51 AM  
Thenixon
bonuses for teachers, it has been shown, will cause some percentage of teachers to cheat. bonuses are what the article was about, and that's all i have to say about that.

So, rather than risk a few teachers cheating, and a bunch more actually succeeding, you want to continue the same failed program we've been following? And actually, the article was also about the fact that the kids have made marked gains in education.
 
2007-01-19 2:15:46 AM  
Memorizing and learning are different. Standardized tests reward memorization. Which would you rather encourage?
 
2007-01-19 2:20:34 AM  
Wraithbane: the article was also about the fact that the kids have made marked gains in education.

to be honest, i didn't actually read it. i was mid-way through high school when my state instituted standardized testing. i guess my real beef with the concept is that it dumbs down classes, or did at my school. no time for questions when there's a mandated curriculum to attend to. i got the answers to my questions on my own, but what of the students who never know anything but multiple choice drills and formulaic essays? will they be curious?
 
2007-01-19 2:24:43 AM  
So for the anti-incentive crowd the answer for better education is to place no continuing criteria upon those disseminating the information to those who are to be taught?

In what manner do you propose we are able to tell the good teachers from the bad if we cannot judge them by the results of their work? The opposition to standardized testing always get around to how this precludes any critical thinking skills, which on the face of it is without merit. Its entirely possible to actually do both, ie teach basic skills and critical thinking. Furthermore, why does the opposition suppose that critical thinking can't be incorporated into the testing in the form of story problems? Sure the answers are limited to only a few choices but after several questions you'll be able to spot those kids who have learned and those who guessed at the answer.

It is the union who does the disservice to the teachers by allowing those sub par performers to keep jobs from new teachers who may be superior.

/has been known to talk prettier than a $2 whore
 
2007-01-19 2:26:51 AM  
Wraithbane: So the solution isn't to ask any question about the traffic laws?

Yeah. That's exactly what I'm saying.

if they can pass a standardized test, then they did learn something.

If you know the ingredients in a cake, do you know how to bake one?
If you can follow a recipe, can you make up your own recipes?

There's a difference between knowing facts and knowing how to apply them. There's also a difference between knowing procedures and understanding why those procedures work.

To get a bit closer to education, it's a fairly easy thing to teach a kid how to compute basic derivatives of functions. But knowing how to take a derivative doesn't teach anything about what a derivative is, what it represents, or why the procedure for computing them is what it is. And each of these pieces are far more important than knowing just the procedure.

You know, like addition, subtraction, algebra, history...etc.What exactly is it you don't think he'll be able to learn?

They tend to not learn the overarching concepts, see above for one example of what I'm talking about. When I was a kid, I remember my teachers talked a lot about Bloom's Taxonomy (since revised a bit), but it was basically an ordering of the different levels of knowledge/learning that can be achieved.

At the lowest level is simply knowing stuff, facts, dates, how to add a column of numbers. This is the basis for knowledge, but it's not a deep kind of knowledge at all.

After that is the ability to understand what those facts mean 2+2 doesn't just equal 4, but now we know that it's a kind of shorthand for what happens when two objects are introduced to a collection that already has two objects in it.

Next is application, this is where you can take the facts that you know and your understanding of what those facts are, and you can use them in new situations that you haven't already seen. E.g. you know how to add numbers, and then you go to the store and are now able to determine if you have enough money to buy all of the items you want.

Next is the ability to look at some pieces of information and to be able to analyze them and extract patterns. For example, the ability to solve riddles like, Sally likes balloons but hates streamers, likes boots, but hates shoes, likes bells but hates whistles, and likes llamas but hates goats. Would she prefer wallpaper, or paint?

Up next is the ability to combine separate facts to discover new ones. An example of this going back to derivatives and adding a bit of algebraic geometry: if you know what a derivative is, and how to compute it, you can use this knowledge to figure out how to compute where a tangent to any point on a cubic will intersect the cubic again.

Finally, comes the ability to take the knowledge you have and to make reasoned judgments with it, to determine the validity of a hypothesis or scenario.

Now, of these levels in the taxonomy, standardized tests rarely rise above the application level. And the way the tests are being taught to, due to the supposed importance of the tests, this is really being lowered to the first and second levels of knowledge and understanding. The teaches never get around to bolstering the higher levels of learning that are the vital tools for advancing in life beyond the high school level (really junior high, if you ask me). That's what the kids can't learn if they are being taught only to pass these tests.

But hey, if you're cool with that...
 
2007-01-19 2:33:46 AM  
If we reject standardized testing the terrorists win.
 
2007-01-19 3:33:37 AM  
Does Sally like paint?
 
2007-01-19 8:28:30 AM  
Teacher says I test better in private.
 
2007-01-19 8:58:46 AM  
Unions are organized crime.
 
2007-01-19 9:14:46 AM  
Read Freakonomics for further information.

When does the movie come out?
 
2007-01-19 9:20:53 AM  
stebain: When does the movie come out?

you can get the gist of it in the porno version "Freak my nomic" it's already on dvd and hd-dvd...
 
2007-01-19 9:34:56 AM  
Nerdlinger: Outstanding post.
 
2007-01-19 9:47:49 AM  
Nerdlinger
If you know the ingredients in a cake, do you know how to bake one?

Maybe not, but if you don't, you damn sure won't be able to.

If you can follow a recipe, can you make up your own recipes?

And again, maybe not, but it you can't, again, you damn sure won't be able to.

There's a difference between knowing facts and knowing how to apply them. There's also a difference between knowing procedures and understanding why those procedures work.

And before you can learn to apply them, you have to know the damn things to start with. It's like you want to skip any intermediary step and then demand performance at a higher level, how about letting they learn to walk before demanding they be taught to run?

To get a bit closer to education, it's a fairly easy thing to teach a kid how to compute basic derivatives of functions. But knowing how to take a derivative doesn't teach anything about what a derivative is, what it represents, or why the procedure for computing them is what it is. And each of these pieces are far more important than knowing just the procedure.

Yep, but...if you don't know how to compute the derivative, knowing the rest of that is pointless, isn't it?

At the lowest level is simply knowing stuff, facts, dates, how to add a column of numbers. This is the basis for knowledge, but it's not a deep kind of knowledge at all.

No, it's not, but it is an absolutely necessary foundation for learning anything deeper.

E.g. you know how to add numbers, and then you go to the store and are now able to determine if you have enough money to buy all of the items you want.

Okay, if you understand that, why does needing to know how to do it in the first place seem to elude you?

Up next is the ability to combine separate facts to discover new ones. An example of this going back to derivatives and adding a bit of algebraic geometry: if you know what a derivative is, and how to compute it, you can use this knowledge to figure out how to compute where a tangent to any point on a cubic will intersect the cubic again.

And, if you don't know, then you can't do any of the rest of it.

Now, of these levels in the taxonomy, standardized tests rarely rise above the application level. And the way the tests are being taught to, due to the supposed importance of the tests, this is really being lowered to the first and second levels of knowledge and understanding. The teaches never get around to bolstering the higher levels of learning that are the vital tools for advancing in life beyond the high school level (really junior high, if you ask me). That's what the kids can't learn if they are being taught only to pass these tests.

So, if they can't pass these test, then how in the hell do you think they are going to be able to do any of the higher functions you've described? You've very able exemplified the necessity for the educational foundation for performing these very things, then argue that it is pointless to ensure that foundation is taught.

But hey, if you're cool with that...

How in the hell can you get to the application of knowledge if you aren't concerned with the knowledge to start with? You can't know what aplications of 2+2 can mean if you can't do the addition to start with. You can't know the use of derivatives if you don't understand how to get the derivative to start with.

If anything, your entire argument proves the need for the standardize testing you protest, to ensure the knowledge is there to build upon to gain the education you think they should have.

And the total lack of logic behind it is mind-staggering.
 
2007-01-19 10:17:37 AM  
Kids, to prove a point I'm going to drive this go-cart through that there giant cake.

Will this be on the test?

Yes, Billy, yes it will.
 
2007-01-19 10:46:24 AM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin

Is your real name George?
 
2007-01-19 10:46:28 AM  
Besides the government giving money to schools per student, and not to the student to have schools compete, the teacher's union is the next biggest failure to our education system.

Firing a teacher for being a complete and total failure is almost impossible.

On a side note, my teacher in 7th grade made me give my standardized test to the student behind me. She was a crazy lady who talked about how her husband was in prison and if her parents have a problem with her they need to "say it to her face." So I said nothing. Blah.
 
2007-01-19 10:47:13 AM  
Shameless Oprah plug. Check.
 
2007-01-19 10:47:41 AM  
Nerdlinger: We are generating children who can do little more than take standardized tests which have essentially zero use in life after high school. But because our nation is increasingly moving towards a single flawed metric for measuring school and teacher performance, there will always be more and more pressure to do nothing in schools but prep for the tests. See the story last year about the girl who was suspended for refusing to answer a question on one of these tests because it would cost the school money, for one example of how silly things have already become.

I think this goes back to the fact that we have an idea that everyone is equal in ability in this country. There is a big difference between being equal under the law and equal in ability. We've confused the two. Also, everyone thinks their little darling is cut out for college and is a genius. Not so. In reality probably 15-25% of all high school graduates are smart and motivated enough to make it through college. The rest should go into good paying and in demand vocations.
 
2007-01-19 10:48:43 AM  
Now I want cake and a go-kart.
 
2007-01-19 10:49:04 AM  
"Well Timmy, you got a 60 on this test, but since you tried really hard, I'll go ahead and make it a 90".
 
2007-01-19 10:49:40 AM  
Yeah, like kids really care what their teachers get paid. *rolls eyes*
 
2007-01-19 10:50:04 AM  
We are generating children who can do little more than take standardized tests which have essentially zero use in life after high school.

No we aren't. I've seen changes to schools in the last 5 years that are actually amazing.

As part of a southern desegragation plan, the schools are moving to be more focused (sort of like some European schools). For instance, there are "health academy" high schools. By the time the kids graduate, they are certified as pharmacy techs, phlebotomists, and have pratical work experience.

Oh, and you know what, they also are able to pass standardized tests. Then again, so could a dead amoeba.
 
2007-01-19 10:50:49 AM  
No Teacher Left Bonus
 
2007-01-19 10:51:03 AM  
Yeah, like kids really care what their teachers get paid. *rolls eyes*

Um, I think in the long run they do. Not directly caring about PAYMENT, I think the kids care when their teachers aren't bitter, are enthusiastic, and really work with the kids.

Or we can just be cynical.
 
2007-01-19 10:52:31 AM  
Ooh I like these.

Learning is to standardized testing like drving is to:

(a) driving go-karts

(b) drving in a parking lot

(c) standardized testing

(d) Teachers should make more money
 
2007-01-19 10:52:43 AM  
I used to tutor middle schoolers and high schoolers during an in-school class - mostly full of gifted slackers. I am not a teacher, I am not employed in education and I stand to gain nothing personally from opposing standardized testing.

Scene from test preparation:
"If I got the right answer, why can't we just move on?"
"Because if you don't have the slightest idea why it's right, then you haven't learned anything. You just picked a letter and got lucky."
"I hate you!"
 
2007-01-19 10:54:01 AM  
Actually, tests can interfere if all they ever do is study crap for the test. Studying crap for a test does not equal learning.
 
2007-01-19 10:54:29 AM  
Education has no greater enemy than teachers' unions.
 
2007-01-19 10:56:25 AM  
At the lowest level is simply knowing stuff, facts, dates, how to add a column of numbers. This is the basis for knowledge, but it's not a deep kind of knowledge at all.

It is unrealistic to think you can teach all of the basis for learning and higher critical thinking skills in a typical school day.

School should be about learning the ground roots of knowledge, if you want to learn "deep knowledge?" you should be going to college.

That's the problem with the school system, they do not have any focus on what to teach. People coming out with a High School diploma should (IMO) be well versed in the basic, fundamental knowledge that is required to be a somewhat educated person.

If you want to delve deeper and become a professional then you should go to college and learn 'how' to think, and get that deeper knowledge.

If you want to specialize or master a typical field, you should then continue onto a graduate degree & research.

There's a clear order of steps in learning. Without a solid fundamental knowledge of basic facts, you will not be able to properly apply higher level learning.

K-12 should provide the basics, college should provide higher level learning.
 
2007-01-19 10:57:11 AM  
"Education, Inc.", it's about bureaucracies and enlarging then, benefits, advancement, tenure, holidays, support staff, latest technology and the IT for it, lobbying, work rules, seniority, funding and funding initiates and on and on.

What about the kid's learning?

What the hell does that have to do with anything?


The results speak for themselves.
 
2007-01-19 10:57:44 AM  
It isn't even teaching "how to take standardized tests." It is teaching how to take that particular standardized test. Teachers know what will be on it. We've become so obsessed with metrics that we have completely lost sight of teaching students how to process information and instead just fill them with stuff they can puke out onto a Scantron.
 
2007-01-19 10:57:50 AM  
 
2007-01-19 10:58:21 AM  
Nerdlinger and Wraithbane

There's an obvious compromise here... Tests of any kind do in fact measure knowledge of a given subject. Not wisdom or application, knowledge. You do have to learn about meteorology and physics and engine systems before you go out and fly a plane.

I do think, however, that these tests tend to 1) be taken WAY too seriously and 2) Have too narrow a focus. Important subjects like art, music, and P.E. are pretty much left in the gutter in lieu of better test scores = better teacher pay. If we don't focus on creative subjects at least part of the time we lose our much-needed creativity, which our economy so desperately needs to stay on top of things.

Fewer and fewer kids want to grow up to be scientists anymore. Could it be that it's because it's shoved down their throats so they can fill in the right bubbles?
 
bgk
2007-01-19 10:58:31 AM  
Oprah.... Say, where's all the press for the good samaritans who don't bring a film crew along with them? Oh, yeah...
 
2007-01-19 10:58:45 AM  
My wife is a teacher, so I am getting a kick out these posts...

Really, she is...

I am for merit based bonuses, but she is not. At the same time, she and one other teacher are the only ones in her school who kids' scores are always going up. She is an excellent teacher. However, the unions are like organized crime. They keep shiatty teachers around, and just shuffle incompetent administrators around until they retire at high 5 and low 6 figures.

She teaches third grade now, but taught 7th last year. I wanted to kill a couple of those little bastards in her class. She used to make her kids say stuff like "Do you want fries with that?" or "Paper or plastic?" When they didn't turn in their homework.

/7th grade girls are the meanest, cold-blooded people on the earth.
 
2007-01-19 10:58:56 AM  
What should we use instead of standardized tests? I have no idea, all the other solutions seem just as flawed.
 
2007-01-19 10:59:14 AM  
Standardized tests help hold teachers accountable. Funny how people that have had zero accountability gripe when standards and benchmarks are forced upon them. Do teachers really think theirs is the only job where the evaluation of results is difficult? There are lots of jobs where this is true. Teaching is one of the few jobs where there is hardly any true evaluation of ability.

Taught for 6 years. Guess how many times the principal sat in on a lesson?//zero times.
\My evaluations sure looked like he truly evaluated my teaching though. My experience is not the exception.
 
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