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(Some Guy)   Michigan colleges still asking for race and gender on admissions forms, even though Michigan outlawed factoring race or gender in admissions. No problem: The colleges solemnly swear to ignore the admissions forms   (michigandaily.com) divider line
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204 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jan 2007 at 6:32 PM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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Sinister Steve
2007-01-12 3:37:04 PM  
Um, don't you need to know race and gender in order to make sure your campus is "diverse"?
 
Action Replay Nick
2007-01-12 3:38:36 PM  
Sure, take the race and gender off. It will make a big difference.

Jamal Watkins
Sarah Schaefer

See? You'd never be able to guess the race and gender of those names.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-01-12 3:44:46 PM  
Sinister Steve: Um, don't you need to know race and gender in order to make sure your campus is "diverse"?

Well, last year Michigan voters--mouth-breathing, pitchfork-waving great unwashed rabble that they are--decided it was more important to spend their hard-earned money on getting their kids an education than it was to spend their money making sure their kids experienced diversity.

If you can imagine.
 
NuttierThanEver
2007-01-12 3:50:40 PM  
Well Merv it depends on how you define education. If you mean merely facts from textbooks then yeah you are right. But if you open you eyes a little bit and see that education can also include learning how to deal with others from different cultures and backgrounds and ethnicities so that whe n you get out in the world you are more prepared then you couldn't be more wrong.
 
tarrant84
2007-01-12 3:52:50 PM  
NuttierThanEver: But if you open you eyes a little bit and see that education can also include learning how to deal with others from different cultures and backgrounds and ethnicities so that whe n you get out in the world you are more prepared then you couldn't be more wrong.

So why do you have to be a different gender to be "diverse?" I'm from Philadelphia, a blue collar working class family, lower middle class... does that count as "diversity?"

Or do I need to be "not white" to fit into your mold of "diversity?"
 
Sinister Steve
2007-01-12 3:53:06 PM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin: If you can imagine.


I can imagine the voters thinking that way, but government does not. Especially when they're footing part of the bill.
 
Froman Abe Froman
2007-01-12 3:54:51 PM  
MyNameIsNotMervGriffin


Well, last year Michigan voters--mouth-breathing, pitchfork-waving great unwashed rabble that they are--decided it was more important to spend their hard-earned money on getting their kids an education than it was to spend their money making sure their kids experienced diversity.

No, it was to get qualified kids in and unqualified kids out. My brother in law is at U of M and has to deal with students who have no clue as to what is going on, and were accepted because of their race.

//pitchfork wielding mouth breather!
/and I didn't vote for W.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-01-12 3:58:14 PM  
Sinister Steve: I can imagine the voters thinking that way, but government does not. Especially when they're footing part of the bill.

There is the small matter of the college's challenging the new law being shot down by the Supreme Court.
 
NuttierThanEver
2007-01-12 3:59:16 PM  
a blue collar working class family, lower middle class... does that count as "diversity?"

Merv you do realize that description applies to pretty much most kids in Michigan outside of the Detroit?
 
Froman Abe Froman
2007-01-12 4:00:16 PM  

Well, last year Michigan voters--mouth-breathing, pitchfork-waving great unwashed rabble that they are--decided it was more important to spend their hard-earned money on getting their kids an education than it was to spend their money making sure their kids experienced diversity.

[image from best-horror-movies.com too old to be available]

Say "NO" to diversity.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-01-12 4:00:28 PM  
Froman Abe Froman: No, it was to get qualified kids in and unqualified kids out.

Seems to me it's a bit hard for a college to give ANYONE a good education if it's jammed with substandard students.

I went back to college in my 30s and was shocked at how many remedial classes they needed to offer for all the recent high school graduates who didn't know how to use a library, do research or manage their time. And I chose my college because their admissions and academic standards were very, very high.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2007-01-12 4:03:39 PM  
NuttierThanEver: But if you open you eyes a little bit and see that education can also include learning how to deal with others from different cultures and backgrounds and ethnicities so that whe n you get out in the world you are more prepared then you couldn't be more wrong.

Er--unless I misunderstand this, you're telling me I'd be wrong to agree with you.

Regardless, you have to make a priority decision. It helps no one to sacrifice a quality education in pursuit of "diversity," especially when there are plenty of other ways to address that goal without using racial discrimination to fill the college with students who can't perform.
 
BobtheFascist
2007-01-12 4:06:18 PM  
Unless this college is in the middle of some town in the UP, I'm guessing there is plenty of "diversity" around it as it stands. Kids do tend to venture off campus often enough to experience people of different ethnicities.
 
Action Replay Nick
2007-01-12 4:07:19 PM  
I'm sorry, but affirmative action is stupid. It's like trying to fix a broken window with a hammer. If you want to increase diversity at the college level, do it the right way: by actually providing funding for good materials and teachers in the horribly underfunded urban public school systems.
 
tarrant84
2007-01-12 4:09:36 PM  
My point is this...

I do agree with a system that allows otherwise disenfranchised people to attain an education, rather than rich kids who take lots of prep courses and don't work. That being said, race is such a MINIMAL factor. We should consider the following...

- Level of education your family has
- Level of income your family has
- Obstacles overcame to apply to where you want to go
- NOT race

This way, people like Bill Cosby's kids don't get an unfair advantage, while poor white kids can still also apply. There's this rampant stereotype in academia that all us whities are rich, trust fund, babies who enjoy nothing more than a good game of golf and smoking $20 bills. Poor white kids get the shaft.

I propose that we exclude race, and examine OTHER factors, which would favor minorities without excluding poor white kids.
 
tarrant84
2007-01-12 4:10:26 PM  
In addition, affirmative action just reinforces negative stereotypes of minorities.

"Gee, I wonder how all the black kids got in here! Affirmative action or sports scholarship!" It's terrible, but you've heard it before...
 
raanne
2007-01-12 4:11:21 PM  
don't know if its already been said - but the article is talking about admission forms that have already been submitted. Basically, its just saying that they aren't going to go back and black out what has already been filled out.
 
raanne
2007-01-12 4:13:05 PM  
tarrant84: It's terrible, but you've heard it before...

oddly enough - i had never heard that before, nor had it occured to me. of course, i'm sure someone said it about me. woman engineer and all.

the main person prop 2 hurt was white women - people just made it into a race issue b/c they knew that that way they could get people to vote for it.
 
HumbleGod
2007-01-12 4:36:05 PM  
Colleges use this information to produce statistics regarding enrollment and the student population. Even in states where affirmative action is outlawed, there's nothing illegal about collecting data.
 
tarrant84
2007-01-12 5:00:54 PM  
HumbleGod: Even in states where affirmative action is outlawed, there's nothing illegal about collecting data.

Yeah, but in those states, the data collecting is separate and the admissions consolers don't see it. You fill out done data form, and then you fill out another "admissions" form.
 
zappaisfrank
2007-01-12 5:13:28 PM  
A lot of people in Michigan were sick of the unlevel playing field. I too have family and friends who have, or are presently attending UofM, and they can confirm that there are a lot of substandard students there, taking up places that could be occupied by people who are academically qualified to actually go there but got passed over because they were the wrong color.

To each, according to their abilities.
 
Helen_Arigby
2007-01-12 5:19:03 PM  
Nick's got it right, I think: the problem isn't at the university level, it's lower down. Fix the public schools and the university admissions should sort themselves out. Universities are breeding grounds for bleeding-heart liberal communism, remember, so there shouldn't be a major problem with racism. That, and if you've got the grades and the cash, show me a university that won't take you.
 
earthquake
2007-01-12 6:04:26 PM  
Action Replay Nick: I'm sorry, but affirmative action is stupid. It's like trying to fix a broken window with a hammer. If you want to increase diversity at the college level, do it the right way: by actually providing funding for good materials and teachers in the horribly underfunded urban public school systems.

This.

No one I know can even get in to UofM. One guy I know here locally has an MSEE from Rice and a perfect GRE. He's been turned down every time he's applied to the PhD program, and once when he applied to the MSEE program (he tried that just to see if he'd get in).

He finally gave up. I guess his money wasn't good enough for them, because his brain sure the hell was.

/mouthbreather
 
Craptastic
2007-01-12 6:44:17 PM  
"Dey took our scholarships!"
 
PowerSlacker
2007-01-12 6:52:43 PM  
Affirmative action is racist.

/cue the pic of the "that's racist" kid
 
Tourney3p0
2007-01-12 6:58:20 PM  
2007-01-12 03:50:40 PM NuttierThanEver [TotalFark]

Well Merv it depends on how you define education. If you mean merely facts from textbooks then yeah you are right. But if you open you eyes a little bit and see that education can also include learning how to deal with others from different cultures and backgrounds and ethnicities so that whe n you get out in the world you are more prepared then you couldn't be more wrong.

What a bunch of feelgood bullshiat.
 
inTheJungle
2007-01-12 7:08:32 PM  
Affirmative action should go by income, not race.

/bleeding heart liberal here
 
Manfred J. Hattan
2007-01-12 7:10:02 PM  
Helen_Arigby:
"Nick's got it right, I think: the problem isn't at the university level, it's lower down."

That may or may not be the BIG problem, but the little problem that generated this "story" is doubtless something along the lines of 'they've already printed the forms and got a bunch of them back.' So the choices are either to hire some poor schmuck to take a Sharpie to the completed forms or to trust the admissions officers to not take a look at that part of the form. At some point one has to have at least a little faith in his fellow man and woman; I'm OK with this solution for this admissions year.
 
PowerSlacker
2007-01-12 7:12:37 PM  
This is not what schools do. What they do is say the want a representitive amount of EVERY race. It does not single out white people or black people or any other color. It looks at its current student body and sees which races are underrepresented EVEN WHITE PEOPLE. So by nature it is NOT racist because it does not single out a single race.


That sounds like a race based quota to me.
 
LouisvilleMale33
2007-01-12 7:17:40 PM  
'Affirmative Action' is a sure fire way to ENCOURAGE racism, and lower the standards for EVERYTHING in this country.

Just imagine if the US was a 'Free Society', where people could HIRE and FIRE whomever they wanted....
Then, OBVIOUSLY the most qualified persons would be hired.. Regardless of race/sex/etc..

If I was a business owner, and I wanted to hire pretty redhead women, and ONLY pretty redhead women... I should be ALLOWED to. Its MY business.. Or, if I should choose to hire the most QUALIFIED, I should be able to do that also.

If people were evaluated on their abilities and not Discriminated against to fill 'Diversity Quotas' then everything would work itself out.

College graduates would be more knowledgeable, businesses would be more productive/etc...

It just MAKES SENSE.

How about this... Im a 5'9, 120lb woman(not really).. and I notice there is no 'DIVERSITY' in SUMO... They discriminate by only allowing HUGE powerful guys.
Should SUMO be MANDATED to allow(and promote and encourage) smaller/less suited persons?
(Sound ridiculous, doesnt it?)

Thats because it IS.
Its unnatural, in every sense of the word.
The strong(able) survive.
 
Tourney3p0
2007-01-12 7:20:46 PM  
2007-01-12 07:06:47 PM Corvus

This is not what schools do. What they do is say the want a representitive amount of EVERY race. It does not single out white people or black people or any other color. It looks at its current student body and sees which races are underrepresented EVEN WHITE PEOPLE. So by nature it is NOT racist because it does not single out a single race.

So let me get this straight.

The formula decides that there aren't enough of a particular race represented. This is obviously a huge, huge problem, so this fact is immediately forwarded to the admissions office.

The admission office gets wind that there aren't enough of the particular race being represented. They're just about to swallow a bullet when two folders come across the desk.

Folder 1: Black guy. IQ of 131. Has 6 awards. Did 100 hours of community service, and has 4 recommendations.

Folder 2: [Underrepresented race] guy. IQ of 130. Has 5 awards. Did 95 hours of community service, and has 3 recommendations.

Who gets in? Underrepresented race guy! Don't worry.. they were just following the formula. Sure, the decision was based completely and totally on the guy's race. But it wasn't affirmative action! And it sure as hell wasn't racist!
 
Ignorant McNugget
2007-01-12 7:38:46 PM  
Corvus: So by nature it is NOT racist because it does not single out a single race.

Even if it's not racist, it's still retarded.

Did you get into university because of a diversity formula? Because it certainly couldn't have been your spelling skills that impressed them.
 
Korovyov
2007-01-12 7:48:38 PM  
I'm going to side with those who think that affirmative action isn't really a good solution today -- considering that inferior , uneven education is almost certainly a more important cause of underrepresentation than racial biases on the part of admissions officers.

If applicants are unequally prepared, it's not really reasonable to adjust standards; you should address whatever's causing the unequal preparation.

/also thinks that 'race' is a pretty piss-poor concept in general, and a lousy way of measuring 'diversity'
 
No Such Agency
2007-01-12 8:07:39 PM  
LouisvilleMale33:
If I was a business owner, and I wanted to hire pretty redhead women, and ONLY pretty redhead women... I should be ALLOWED to.

I'll concede this if and only if you are required to prominently display this policy on all job ads and company promotional material. After all, those redheaded women should get to know exactly why they were hired, and the rest of us should be able to avoid your business (wholly staffed by attractive incompetents with low self-esteem). The market would then determine your fate.

Its MY business..

Because most of us agree that non-discriminatory hiring is a social good which improves the talent pool available to business and government and encourages a diversity of people to develop their careers, we as a collective have put these rules in place. Too bad for you.
 
BlazeTrailer
2007-01-12 8:24:50 PM  
IMHO a lot of affirmative action should be retooled to help out the economically disadvantaged demographic that is assumed to be minority.

Having said this, I find it very interesting that people assume it is the pursuit of cultural diversity on campuses that is producing unqualified students rather than legacy admits or students financially supported by alumni. Our president isn't ivy league if not for such rules.
 
meddlin' kid
2007-01-12 8:26:33 PM  
LouisvilleMale33: Just imagine if the US was a 'Free Society', where people could HIRE and FIRE whomever they wanted....Then, OBVIOUSLY the most qualified persons would be hired.. Regardless of race/sex/etc..

you say that with such enthusiasm, i truly believe that you believe it. but consider this, the US was such a society in the late 19th century, and the whole farking country was run by white protestant men.

slowly slowly slowly after decades and decades of movements to give women, blacks and non-landholders the vote, and after winning recognition of unions to represent workers, we created something of a middle class in this country.

that's been because people thought something wasn't fair and organized around it, not because the bosses had a realization that they were eminently qualified.

also consider that when it comes to hiring/firing people, you can do basically what you want, short of laying-off workers that refuse to sleep with you. hooters definitely works the hot-waitress theme, and obviously your sumo wrestlers are in no danger of slimming down.

raanne: woman engineer and all.

i'm a male engineer, and the thing i most often heard behind a woman's back was, "faaaaaaaaark, it'd be so much easier to get a job if i was a girl." not that the women were any less qualified than we were, but that their XX genes gave them an advantage.

i was pissed about it for a little while, and then had it explained to me in the interviewing process that being a white male is still a gigantic asset.

then i started feeling like an asshole for being pissed.

i'm over it now.

anyway. i agree with all the thoughts that affirmative action should be entirely class-based. the racial stuff just polarizes people who really have a common history of struggle.
 
Korovyov
2007-01-12 8:30:55 PM  
Left to their own devices, UMich came up with:

(chart for non-minorities)
(chart for minorities

which is what triggered the lawsuits.

Note that a minority student with a 3.0 GPA and an 820 combined SAT (1995-vintage) would be an automatic accept; while an 820 SAT for a non-minority student was an automatic reject regardless of GPA and even a 3.3 GPA for a non-minority was, at best, postponement. That's not exactly a small difference.


Of course, that was tossed out as a blatant violation, so they moved to a
point system where the points for racial and athletic preferences are both large enough to compensate for getting a perfectly (bad) combined score of 400 on the 1998-vintage SAT.


HREF="http://www.cir-usa.org/cases/michigan_charts_intl.html">charts for their law school
 
Tourney3p0
2007-01-12 8:39:27 PM  
2007-01-12 07:54:29 PM Corvus

Do you really think they would take someone who could not even write just because of thier race?

Are you dense? When did I say that? I presented two scenarios of fairly respectable students.

I sat here for a moment elaborating on what I said and otherwise responding to some of your other comments, but looking back on it it's apparent you haven't even understood or addressed my valid points. I'll wait for that then respond appropriately.
 
Taurabora
2007-01-12 8:43:34 PM  
I applied to U of M 6 years ago in my senior year of high school. I had a 3.8 GPA, a 32/36 on my ACT, the most rigorous classes, tons of extracurriculars, and was captain of the football, wrestling and track teams.

Denied.

btw I'm a poor, white kid from just north of 8 Mile.

However, this article isn't a big deal. I think it is very likely that they will change their admissions forms before the next school year.
 
meddlin' kid
2007-01-12 8:53:06 PM  
Taurabora: btw I'm a poor, white kid from just north of 8 Mile.

that's another shaft for the poor/working class whites. the college isn't gonna look just at your GPA, but also the name of your high school. the kids from the nice, suburban "college prep" schools are gonna be able to slide in with a lower GPA 'cause the college is gonna trust their program to have created a higher level of competition.

(i'm assuming here if you're from near 8 mile your high school wasn't strictly a world-class institution)

now, in the world of LouisvilleMale33 that's just tough for you. but i think (as a person that benefited greatly from going to a tough high school) it's crazy.

state colleges should have provisions to provide educate the people that excelled in the conditions they were born into. remedial courses, whatever. i mean, the same state that farked the public high schools up ought not punish people who go to the lower-tier schools.
 
bheilig
2007-01-12 9:21:06 PM  
The WSJ nailed UC Berkeley for something similar a few years ago, and it was all true.

Institutions that want to use race as a factor will do so, regardless of what the law says. That means country clubs that mysteriously have no black people just as much as it does college campuses that mysteriously always reflect the exact demographics of the politicized minorities.
 
BlazeTrailer
2007-01-12 9:38:11 PM  
Taurabura something seems off. I had a 30 ACT, 3.6 GPA, honors classes (except history - took average there), was captain in football, though I did turn down National Honors Society before I knew what it represented (though I'm not sure I do even now). I turned down U of M to go to Carnegie Mellon. I am (and was then) primarily white. Not sure the difference given similar academic resumes.

/I will say I was in a church youth group at the time - my have things changed - but perhaps formal declaration of Christianity made the difference
 
EmmaLou
2007-01-12 10:12:14 PM  
UMich undergrad couldn't use a point system where race/gender classifications got huge points compared to those with talent. If you looked at their admissions pre-SCOTUS decision, they were pretty unfair. They can still use race and gender, just not in the same way.
 
Taurabora
2007-01-12 10:16:24 PM  
BlazeTrailer

U of M also took into account the high school you attend based on the performance of past students who graduated from that high school. My high school actually recieved negative 10 points on the U's admission score, while schools in Detroit recieved positive points (can't recall the number) as another way of promoting affirmative action. Schools like Troy High School (Upper Middle Class-Rich) received around 20 points, iirc.

I ended up getting into the Honors program at MSU and that's where I went.
 
davynelson
2007-01-12 11:15:19 PM  
they say that on government application forms up here in Canada, but FOR STATISTICAL PURPOSES ONLYL.

so i wrote that i was a lesbian woman native eskimo, but I still didn't get the job

so you never know.

My name might have given me away.
 
LouisvilleMale33
2007-01-12 11:37:49 PM  
Meddlin'Kid:

"now, in the world of LouisvilleMale33 that's just tough for you. but i think (as a person that benefited greatly from going to a tough high school) it's crazy."

I have no idea what you're talking about.. There is no 'world of LouisvilleMale33' I dont live in any alternative universe. I just speak fact.


I know of a guy that repeated tried to be a firefighter.
Even though he was an exceptionally smart guy, in great athletic shape, and actually had a desire to be a firefighter.. He was denied... More than once.

It seems that JUST looking at his academic and physical tests for the program he would have made a VERY good candidate.

But, other things are factored in... 'Race/Gender/etc'
And, peoples not of the same race/gender/etc.. aren't held to the same -STANDARDS- that he was held to, for admittance.

Now, this is no real big deal, you can say.. I mean, we need more 'diversity' in everything...

But, hopefully if I should ever need the services of firefighters, that I get the... wait for it...
--MOST CAPABLE FIREFIGHTERS--
I don't care what age/race/sex/religion/etc they are.
As long as they are the BEST at doing THEIR job.

I believe everyone could rest a little easier at night, thinking that the most HIGHLY qualified public servants are on duty.
 
spaten
2007-01-12 11:46:06 PM  
It's going to be great when my kid gets college age and can apply for quota jobs. He's a quarter latino and is blond and blue eyed.

/suck it affirmitive action racists
 
WorldCitizen
2007-01-13 2:17:58 AM  
I definitely agree that a campus should be diverse in order to give help make students at the campus more worldly and wise. It's difficult to consider yourself educated in any real sense if you were only exposed to other people who were basically of your same race, class, nationality and cultural experience. However, I think that diversity should be cultivated in recruitment and not in having different admissions standards for different groups of people.

However, this is very often not the reality.
 
UKerupt
2007-01-13 12:51:01 PM  
My university is hosting a "Diveristy Seminar" and asked students to e-mail questions to be answered

Heres my e-mail

Why is diversity only measured by the color of one's skin and not by the content of their character?
Is diversity at Texas State measured by which box a student checks when they apply here?
Could Texas State increase diversity by having every student check the "Black" or "Hispanic" box? Imagine if our university's student population was 100% minority!
Shouldn't diversity be centered around what's inside someone's head rather than how much melanin they have in their skin?
How much can you tell about someone, judging them by the color of their skin?
How diverse can Texas State be if the vast majority of it's students are from the state of Texas, and the majority of those students are from just five cities?
Would Texas State increase its diversity if it did away with out-of-state tuition and recruited students from all over the country to attend school here?
Would Texas State increase its diversity if it did away with international tuition and recruited students from all over the world to attend school here?
Should Texas State strive to have equal numbers of conservative, moderate, and liberal students, faculty, and staff?

--end of e-mail

Okay people, this is how you beat the system. Everytime you see a box that asks for your race/ethnicity, CHECK BLACK OR HISPANIC

Its that easy!
 
Alleyoop
2007-01-14 12:24:40 AM  
UKerupt: Why is diversity only measured by the color of one's skin and not by the content of their character?

Yeah, there's a day coming up shortly where some guy fighting racism said something like that. It made sense when he said it. I don't remember him saying that it's only supposed to work one way though...

HumbleGod: Colleges use this information to produce statistics regarding enrollment and the student population. Even in states where affirmative action is outlawed, there's nothing illegal about collecting data.

For what purpose? Just out of curiosity? Busy-work for some bean-counters sitting around with nothing to do? Puleeeease...
 
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