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(National Review)   Dems promise to make health care cheaper, but everything they've ever done when in power has always made it more expensive   (article.nationalreview.com) divider line
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335 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Jan 2007 at 7:18 PM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2007-01-04 3:33:16 PM  
Free abortions and stem cell gift bags for everyone.

/que paso, USA?
 
2007-01-04 3:34:31 PM  
Actually it was pretty cheap prior to 1994 when the Republicans took over.
 
2007-01-04 3:43:55 PM  
Baggins:
when the Republicans took over.

Apparently you're supposed to blame that on the Democrats, too.
 
2007-01-04 3:54:28 PM  
The "facts" listed in the story are all things from the past and are not indicative of what the Democrats may be able to accomplish in the next congress.

For instance, in the first 100 hours they have promised to allow Medicare to bargain directly with drug companies. That's a great idea!
 
2007-01-04 3:55:50 PM  
"Cheaper Health Care" = "Higher Taxes"
 
2007-01-04 3:59:51 PM  
Baggins

Actually it was pretty cheap prior to 1994 when the Republicans took over.


Who are you going to believe, your own eyes/financial records/common knowledge/logic or the NRO?

/Cant trust either party to fix this so long as they receive money from the cancer profiteers.
 
2007-01-04 4:01:05 PM  
Dems promise to make health care cheaper

the triumph of hope over experience.

government involvement always makes things more expensive, whichever party holds the reins. there's no reason to expect health care reform to be any different
 
2007-01-04 4:02:09 PM  
Yeah, I remember when they said they'd make my cable TV bill cheaper. In the following decade, it was anything but cheap.


RocketRod "Cheaper Health Care" = "Higher Taxes"

You win the thread.
 
2007-01-04 4:03:54 PM  
To be fair, Republicans, when they have controlled both the House and Senate, have also managed to make health care and health insurance more expensive.

At least he's an honest partisan douche. That's high praise these days.

The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 and 1997's State Children's Health Insurance Program are two examples.

HIPAA was so completely needed though.

I like how he conveniently left out the Republicans'
Medicare Part D plan that's hosed the elderly and made the health care industry quite happy.
 
2007-01-04 4:04:40 PM  
government private middle man involvement always makes things more expensive, whichever party holds the reins

/fixed that for ya
 
2007-01-04 4:17:37 PM  
albo: government involvement always makes things more expensive

if by always you mean, not necessarily always, I will have to agree.
 
2007-01-04 4:19:27 PM  
Based on one innovative paper vs. years of any evidence to the contrary, Medicare is to blame. Also based on this one person's paper, although the paper doesn't say it, Medicaid is probably to blame too. Also, [the author argues] allowing states to do their own regulation is bad, and that it should be Federal. Also, [he argues] too many businesses escape regulation.

Obviously, it's all the Democrats' fault since they were in power in the 60s.

What is he arguing for? The Dems are in power now, what should they do? Status quo? More regulation? Less regulation? Based on his arguments he seems to be arguing more Federal regulation is the way to go - does that sound conservative or Republican?

Or is just grasping at straws to blame problems on "the other" party?

"Oh, noes, it's the Democrats nothing they do will ever work!"

Was this written by a Farker from Texas?
 
2007-01-04 4:36:50 PM  
Baggins: Actually it was pretty cheap prior to 1994 when the Republicans took over.

That's not what we were told in 1993.
 
2007-01-04 4:46:52 PM  
Solution:

Physicians must give 20-25% of their services pro-bono.

In return, they do not pay tax.
 
2007-01-04 5:00:23 PM  
rocinante721: Physicians must give 20-25% of their services pro-bono.

how about you let lesser trained individuals diagnose and treat the more common of ailments. I don't really need to see a doctor to tell me I have strep throat or a sprained ankle...
 
2007-01-04 5:05:27 PM  
First comes single payer. When we get the cameltoe under the tent, then, only then can we proceed to eat your little babies at pagan-officiated queer wedding ceremonies.
 
2007-01-04 5:09:17 PM  
Headso how about you let lesser trained individuals diagnose and treat the more common of ailments. I don't really need to see a doctor to tell me I have strep throat or a sprained ankle...

That's what Nurse Practitioners & Physican Assistants are for.

... or you can man-up, Nancy
 
2007-01-04 5:15:23 PM  
rocinante721: That's what Nurse Practitioners & Physican Assistants are for.

I believe a doctor still has to be involved with that...
 
2007-01-04 5:22:47 PM  
Headso

I believe a doctor still has to be involved with that...

Not sure what the laws are, but they sure as hell *want* to be. And I'm sure doctors have lobbied it into law.

Look- less-skilled medical care is better than none at all. You know how many poor (not even poor- middle class, too) people skip any and all medical care because they can't get insurance?

The best system- and one that remains private- is to allow and encourage doctors in training, nurses, and the like to fully practice medicine for people who cannot get insurance.

At the same time, shield them from lawsuits and malpractice unless they do something completely intentional.

Secondly... make it a requirement for drug companies to give away or make very cheap a certain amount of their drugs to get FDA approval. Again- its just a law, the government isn't all that involved and private companies are responsible for making it happen.

I know I'm oversimplifying... but this is the direction that would work.
 
2007-01-04 5:25:18 PM  
Also: for once and for all- outlaw "pre-existing conditions" like they have for group plans.

That, actually, is as great of an evil in the healthcare world as the prohibitive expense of insurance.
 
2007-01-04 6:06:20 PM  
MusicMakeMyHeadPound,

HIPAA was so completely needed though.

Please tell me you're joking. I searched for the sarcasm, but I couldn't find it.
 
2007-01-04 6:26:35 PM  
We already have universal health care, grudgingly supplied at the ER. It's horribly expensive and the outcomes suck ("a system designed by a psychotic")

It's not clear how the single payer approach could be any more expensive or yield worse results.
 
2007-01-04 6:30:40 PM  
Everything that anybody has done has made medical care more expensive. Why does one procedure require bills to the insurance company from 5 or 6 different entities?? Why doesn't the highest level... hospital, clinic, whatever... just submit one bill and the rest get paid by them.

This is something that I would like seen put into law.
 
2007-01-04 7:24:30 PM  
Lets all move to Canada where doctors go on strike and you're taxed to death to pay for all this "Universal Healthcare"
 
2007-01-04 7:33:13 PM  
Don't blame the Dems, blame the medical industries that insist on gouging the public for insane profiteering.

No way health care's going to be "cheap" with that in mind.
 
2007-01-04 7:37:15 PM  
The reason your health insurance keeps going up is because doctors keep finding new ways to keep old people barely alive.

It's pretty much a given anymore that old people are going to spend the last five years in and out of hospitals until they eventually don't get out. They just lie in a bed for six months and then finally die.

Who do you think is paying for that? A lot of it is coming from your health insurance premiums. Not to mention thousands of dollars worth of saving that these people otherwise would have been able to leave to their children.

It's a farking scam. I don't know which is worse. Robbing people of their money or robbing them of their dignity by making them spend the last year of their lives in a hospital so farked up that they can't even wipe their own asses.
 
2007-01-04 7:37:19 PM  
SchlingFo
Please tell me you're joking. I searched for the sarcasm, but I couldn't find it.

Not joking or trolling. I work in the IT dept of a private healthcare company. I recently found documentation from my predecessors over a decade ago that shows how appalling privacy and security used to be pre-HIPAA.

It's been 10 years since that law was passed and we're still not completely up to snuff. It's not like the privacy and security standards outlined in that act are all that stringent either, and most of it should be common sense.

The private industry had their chance to self-regulate and blew it big time. HIPAA is a good thing for the consumer.
 
2007-01-04 7:41:07 PM  
A promise? Healthcare is cheaper? WOW.

Lottapelosi is getting off to a great start.
 
2007-01-04 7:45:03 PM  
MusicMakeMyHeadPound: HIPAA was so completely needed though.

*Parts* of HIPAA were so completely needed. Ask anyone who works in the field how they feel about the X12N crossover, or the restrictions on research.
 
2007-01-04 7:49:33 PM  
bwesb: A promise? Healthcare is cheaper? WOW.

Reading comprehension was something covered in the 3rd grade.
 
2007-01-04 7:50:19 PM  
MusicMakeMyHeadPound,

Not joking or trolling. I work in the IT dept of a private healthcare company. I recently found documentation from my predecessors over a decade ago that shows how appalling privacy and security used to be pre-HIPAA.

It's been 10 years since that law was passed and we're still not completely up to snuff. It's not like the privacy and security standards outlined in that act are all that stringent either, and most of it should be common sense.

The private industry had their chance to self-regulate and blew it big time. HIPAA is a good thing for the consumer.


Try following HIPAA regulations when you're seeing 8,000 patients over the course of 8 days in two clinics. Your clinics are set up inside classrooms in a school, and you've got patients at 6 immunizations stations inside one classroom.

We said, "Fark it." I can't imagine how many times we violated HIPAA over the course of those 8 days. But, we were going to be the only medical care those people would get for the year.

It seems that the only time HIPAA is followed is when you're trying to transfer a record from one office to a new doctor and have to jump through 18 hoops to get the information faxed because you're in a different state.

But, when I walk in to Student Health services, I can hand them my girlfriend's prescription for birth control and have a discussion with them regarding what she was previously taking as compared to the new stuff before picking up her medication.
 
2007-01-04 7:53:36 PM  
SchlingFo: It seems that the only time HIPAA is followed is when you're trying to transfer a record from one office to a new doctor and have to jump through 18 hoops to get the information faxed because you're in a different state.

lol - and you can't e-mail the info because TCP/IP doesn't meet HIPAA privacy requirements (depending on whom you ask).

One of the worst aspects of the requirements is that they're poorly defined, and *nobody* farking understands them.
 
2007-01-04 7:56:01 PM  
Like gas?
 
2007-01-04 7:58:20 PM  
Sloth_DC,

lol - and you can't e-mail the info because TCP/IP doesn't meet HIPAA privacy requirements (depending on whom you ask).

I'd never heard that before, and, while it's ridiculous as hell, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

One of the worst aspects of the requirements is that they're poorly defined, and *nobody* farking understands them.

Amen to that.
 
2007-01-04 8:13:32 PM  
RocketRod
"Cheaper Health Care" = "Higher Taxes"


"Healthier Workforce" = "More Taxpayers" = "Lower Taxes"!

3Horn
 
2007-01-04 8:13:47 PM  
SchlingFo: I'd never heard that before, and, while it's ridiculous as hell, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Wanna know the really funny part? The file I wanted them to e-mail me was the same file that they had received over internet FTP from the clearinghouse. Waitaminute, here...
 
2007-01-04 8:24:01 PM  
shinjitsuism: Lets all move to Canada where doctors go on strike and you're taxed to death to pay for all this "Universal Healthcare"
Your a farking moron. One of the worst places to live would be the states with your farked up shiat.
 
2007-01-04 8:27:51 PM  
The USA spend more public money than most of Europe, yet unlike most of Europe does not have universal, free at point of delivery healthcare.


Public and private expenditure on health
US dollars per capita, calculated using PPPs, 2003 or latest year available
[image from titania.sourceoecd.org too old to be available]

The US system is the most inefficient in the world. Spend the mosts, gets the least back

below av infant mortality.
Deaths per 1000 live births, 2003 or latest available year
[image from titania.sourceoecd.org too old to be available]

below av life expectancy.
[image from titania.sourceoecd.org too old to be available]

And for this shaite they pay 100% to 50% more than the rest of the developed world....

all graphs from the OECD.

/How could it get worse?
 
2007-01-04 8:29:43 PM  
Don't mind me. I'm a little cranky because I live in an igloo and have to wait days to see a doctor and forget about the emergency room. People DIE in Canadian waiting rooms everyday! I make 65 G's a year but only take home about $10000 after the Gov takes their share, God bless their helping souls they only do it because they know better than us. No doot aboot it eh!

/PLEASE help me out of this Canadian hell hole!
 
2007-01-04 8:34:05 PM  
hillbillypharmacists POV.

The rising cost of healthcare is directly attributable to the sheer number of middlemen, their increasing profit margins, and the byzantine system by which we pay them. Of course, this is all fine if you buy into the theory that this is what the market will bear, people will find a way to pay if they want to, and that there is no tangible benefit to society as a whole to have a larger percentage of the populace healthy.

I don't buy into it. However, I don't think healthcare is a 'right', either. It is a luxury that we can afford to pay, if set up correctly.

There is a middle ground between for-profit corporate healthcare and fully socialized government healthcare. It upsets me to no end when any encroachment or regulation on insurance companies and pharmaceutical corporations is referred to as the beginning step towards communism. It isn't.

It is the government's duty to provide a conducive atmosphere for business to flourish, and one of the best ways to do this is to supply it with a larger pool of healthy workers. In order to do this, the corporations providing healthcare now may cease to exist in their present states. Too damn bad. And again- I'm not advocating government run healthcare- that would be madness.

I think that we should create non-profit businesses to replace drug manufacturing, research and development labs (which ironically are heavily funded by the NIH anyways, double bonus for drug companies who can make a profit on drugs they didn't pay to discover), and insurance companies (including malpractice insurance). These companies can compete among themselves for their patients and doctor clients, but the money they save by being efficient will be used how it should: lowering the price of the services provided and increasing the number of patients treated, instead of being pocketed by shareholders and executives. By doing this, our healthcare system will be able to provide the same care for a cheaper price, while still allowing the consumer to choose between plans (or none at all) all without that evil, evil government control.

This sort of thing has happened before in US history. In 1938, the government created Fannie Mae in order to make it easier for Americans to purchase homes. Considering the amount of taxpayer money that goes to subsidize various healthcare corporations, and research that is funded by NIH, plus Medicare and Medicaid, creating government-sponsored independent corporations whose entire goal is to treat as many people as possible as cheaply as possible (instead of making a profit) will actually lessen government's involvement in healthcare, not increase it.

But failing this fairly radical change, some simpler steps can be done to help matters. For example, creating non-profit drug companies that can directly compete with the for-profit companies instead of replacing them. For-profit companies receive public funds to pay R&D costs for many drugs, and then charge a profit to the consumer. This costs the taxpayers twice. This should not ever happen. Either public funding of R&D for for-profit corporations must be abolished and diverted to non-profit drug companies, or the for-profit corporations must sell those drugs at cost to the consumers.

Another problem is drug advertising, which is harmful and expensive. Advertising costs pharmaceutical corporations as much as double R&D. The consumers simply don't have enough information or education to make informed decisions about prescription drugs.

The medical community as a whole should practice evidence-based medicine, and allowing drugs to be peddled with pretty pictures and appeals to authority, instead of performance in clinical trials, is unprofessional and unhelpful. Moreover, the FDA is fraught with corporate interests, and those that run the FDA have a fundamental conflict of interest, because they can own stock in the companies whose products they approve or disapprove. Moreover, approximately half the FDA's budget for regulating the drug industry comes from the drug industry itself as fees to speed up the approval process. As a community, medical professionals should demand objectivity and squelch conflicts of interest.

/ I'm more of a Eurpean model fan myself
 
2007-01-04 8:37:14 PM  
Sloth_DC
*Parts* of HIPAA were so completely needed. Ask anyone who works in the field how they feel about the X12N crossover, or the restrictions on research.

lol. "gap fill". Alright fair enough. Let me revise that: The parts of HIPAA where they dealt with computer information systems were so completely needed.

The memos I found showed a lack of segregation of duties ("Under the security screen, press 'select all'), crappy password protection, and one note showing that a customer service rep fell for the old "I forgot my member number, can you look it up for me?" scam (the problem being that the member number was the same thing as the social security number).

One of the worst aspects of the requirements is that they're poorly defined, and *nobody* farking understands them.

I maintain it's at least a lot better than how it was (though hell yeah, it needs work).
 
2007-01-04 8:40:25 PM  
Snoozer
Don't mind me. I'm a little cranky because I live in an igloo and have to wait days to see a doctor and forget about the emergency room.

And when you go, you have to go by dog sled?

/don't skimp out on the details ;)
 
2007-01-04 8:50:53 PM  
MusicMakeMyHeadPound: And when you go, you have to go by dog sled?

Of course I travel by dog sled! That is, unless someone else is using it to hunt beavers for their pelts. Which happens to be our major source of income, that and maple syrup.
 
2007-01-04 8:59:54 PM  
Lard_Baron: hillbillypharmacists POV

Hey thanks! I was just about to do that myself.
 
2007-01-04 9:17:22 PM  
Maybe substitute "treat as many people as possible that aren't being treated well by alternatives" instead of merely "treat as many people as possible".


A system that attempts to treat as many as possible on a budget has the obvious path of trying to take care of the easy cases -- the almost-always -healthy people whom the usual insurance providers are perfectly willing to have as profitable customers, anyway. The people who combine low income/creditworthiness with a high likelihood of being expensive, now...

 
2007-01-04 9:25:06 PM  
Snoozer
Of course I travel by dog sled! That is, unless someone else is using it to hunt beavers for their pelts. Which happens to be our major source of income, that and maple syrup.

I go just for the milk in a bag
 
2007-01-04 9:36:43 PM  
3horn

OMG, you just used a sociology argument. Get the behind me!

You're speaking to the wrong animal here brother.
 
2007-01-04 9:55:43 PM  
If it's cheaper, I know where MY money is going thanks to the ads on the site.

[image from img11.imagepile.net too old to be available]

*thanks imagepile.net
 
2007-01-04 9:57:08 PM  
[image from gpahouston.org too old to be available]
 
2007-01-04 10:23:56 PM  
Ooh, maple syrup makes me all antsy in my pantsy.
 
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