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(CNN)   Human Rights Watch says Saddam's trial did not present enough evidence to convict him. In related news, Human Rights Watch apparently never watched Iraq when Saddam was running things   (cnn.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass  
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204 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Nov 2006 at 5:48 PM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



42 Comments     (+0 »)
 
2006-11-21 3:08:30 PM  
"Over Zealous Underlings"

It's a favorite phrase of the current administration and a number of the, now former, congress critters and pseudo-conservative candidates.

Or IOKIYAR?
 
2006-11-21 3:28:52 PM  
Apparently this needs to be explained:

A person can be guilty, can have strong evidence against him, and still get an unfair trial. Many people seem to think "Well, he's clearly guilty so why does it matter?"

It matters because for the process to have credibility, you have to have a process to follow that establishes that punishments aren't being handed out arbitrarily. For people to respect the rule of law in a country as young as the new Iraq, they have to see the law as something that can't be manipulated by the other guys (whoever that is in any particular instance) on a whim.
 
2006-11-21 3:38:41 PM  
Well, unfortunately, I don't think that this government you speak of exists. The average person is easily corrupted.
 
2006-11-21 4:21:01 PM  
I've been saying this for months now. If I was one of the judges and somehow could be impartial, I don't think I would have convicted him on the spotty evidence and lack of direct witnesses. But really, which Iraqi could be impartial?
 
2006-11-21 6:00:06 PM  
azmoviez --- "I've been saying this for months now. If I was one of the judges and somehow could be impartial, I don't think I would have convicted him on the spotty evidence and lack of direct witnesses. But really, which Iraqi could be impartial?"


So are we to asume that you watched the entire trial and saw all of the evidence... Are we to assume this when only half of it was shown ?

Another AW
 
2006-11-21 6:25:42 PM  
subby better hope he/she/it is never on trial when the prosecution f*cks up and is still found guilty.
 
2006-11-21 6:26:11 PM  
Useful Idiots at their worst...
 
2006-11-21 6:27:06 PM  
Out of all the people in the world getting screwed in the courts on a regular basis, they go out of their way to speak up about this asshole?
 
2006-11-21 6:32:24 PM  
...so if I see someone do something bad then they're automatically guilty and there's no need for a legal trial?

Cool!

I'm looking at you, Rumsfeld.
 
2006-11-21 6:36:23 PM  
ericjohnson0: Useful Idiots at their worst...

You're right, eric. The worst of the worst shouldn't get a fair trial/legitimate proceeding.... It's not like the legitimacy of the Iraqi judiciary depends largely on this trial....
 
2006-11-21 6:38:32 PM  
Adjective Bird Whiskey: Out of all the people in the world getting screwed in the courts on a regular basis, they go out of their way to speak up about this asshole?

Yep. Because, if the worst of the worst can get a fair trial, it sends a message to the Iraqi people that anyone can get a fair trial.
 
2006-11-21 6:40:47 PM  
This is the same group that has no problem with China or Cuba. Not a peep about the oppression of women in the middle east.

Because as we all know and have it reinforced here every day, America is the source of all evil. And the Joooos.
 
2006-11-21 6:44:46 PM  
El_Perro

I'm not disagreeing with anybody in that regard, but c'mon. There's a few black guys on deathrow in Texas that could probably use some help.
 
2006-11-21 6:45:41 PM  
America will never allow a fair trial of Saddam Hussein. If he wasn't outraged at what amounted to Bush slapping Saddam in the face with his peener (the joke of a trial), Saddam could have taken down major players in the US defense industry. Major players, people that have clearly bought the Bush presidency.
 
2006-11-21 6:47:57 PM  
What?!?

Ric Romero was unavailable to report this?
 
2006-11-21 6:48:23 PM  
Smeggy Smurf: This is the same group that has no problem with China or Cuba. Not a peep about the oppression of women in the middle east.

HRW fact sheet/background on Cuba

HRW fact sheet/background on China

HRW fact sheet/background on women's rights in the Middle East

Idiot.
 
2006-11-21 6:51:18 PM  
Smeggy Smurf
This is the same group that has no problem with China or Cuba. Not a peep about the oppression of women in the Middle East.


They're a global organization and yes they have done reports on repression in Cuba, China and the Middle East.

Try visiting their website and doing a search before looking like a dumbass.
 
2006-11-21 6:51:29 PM  
Adjective Bird Whiskey: I'm not disagreeing with anybody in that regard, but c'mon. There's a few black guys on deathrow in Texas that could probably use some help.

Well, sure. And people/groups, including HRW (but also domestic groups like the Innocence Project, etc) are helping them, or at least trying to help. The point, of course, is that everyone, from some poor black guy on death row in Texas for something he may or may not have done, to Saddam, deserves a fair trial.
 
2006-11-21 7:14:56 PM  
So, I'm trying to make some baked potatoes the other night, and I'm looking for that stuff you wrap them up in. You know the stuff; and I had just bought a whole crap-load of it from Costco, too. I mean it was like a metric ton. And then I look over and see that not only did he make a hat out of the stuff, but Bored Horde had made his dog and his goldfish little hats, too. Then he covered his house in it. I hope you know that foil is pretty expensive, and not to be used randomly.
 
2006-11-21 7:19:24 PM  
A person can be guilty, can have strong evidence against him, and still get an unfair trial. Many people seem to think "Well, he's clearly guilty so why does it matter?"

Mumia, anyone?
 
2006-11-21 7:27:02 PM  
Sure, the trial was a farce. That's an unfortunate consequence when the defendant's guilt is so blindingly obvious. Sorry.
 
2006-11-21 7:30:00 PM  
I'll try to explain this slowly, and simply.

Yes, Saddam ran show trials as dictator of Iraq. Yes, those trials weren't fair.

But in case you've forgotten Excuse #243a for starting the war, we were supposed to be making Iraq "free". That means that we're supposed to be having fair trials for people.

In short, we're supposed to be better than Saddam was.
 
2006-11-21 7:34:26 PM  
PenguinTheRed
Sure, the trial was a farce. That's an unfortunate consequence when the defendant's guilt is so blindingly obvious. Sorry.


Now, I agree that Saddam should be put on trial and held accountable for his crimes against humanity--but how in the world do you figure he broke the law of Iraq when he was the dictator of Iraq? That's what the Hague is for.
 
2006-11-21 9:10:24 PM  
TheXRayStyle "Now, I agree that Saddam should be put on trial and held accountable for his crimes against humanity--but how in the world do you figure he broke the law of Iraq when he was the dictator of Iraq? That's what the Hague is for."

You're not alone in this lack of knowledge, but Saddam never had much to do with the countries judiciary... He always feared that it was the one area of government that could take him down... for that reason, he never had the chance to corrupt it. Everyone should do their homework before posting on this. Barely anyone's read the transcripts of the trial yet, unless you can
read arabic.
 
2006-11-21 9:59:09 PM  
Adjective Bird Whiskey: Out of all the people in the world getting screwed in the courts on a regular basis, they go out of their way to speak up about this asshole?


Considering that his execution, the product of said flawed trial, will likely plunge most of the region into a sectarian civil war that would make Darfur or Kosovo look like people singing Kumbaya around a campfire, and destabilize some already precarious powder kegs such as Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia...

...you should be really, really glad they're putting this kind of unpopular effort into trying to make sure he gets dealt with correctly. There's no question he is scum. The snag is that there is a correct and a corrupt way to deal with scum, and so far the whole thing has hypocritically gone with 'corrupt'.
 
2006-11-21 10:28:37 PM  
I think the idea of 'breaking the law of Iraq' is born from the natural law concept that a government must at the very least treat it's people as more than base animals, and not purposefully invade and attack their basic human rights. This includes the right to life.

So in a natural law sense, he broke one of the basic tenets of governance. The people of Iraq have now formed a government that they feel has the power and right to enforce at least those basic natural laws against violations even in times before the actual new government existed.

Further, while the concept of ex post facto laws being disallowed is a basic tenet of our legal system, that does not mean that it necessarily is a basic tenet of their new legal system.

Finally, others have already commented on the difference between guilt and proof of guilt. To those that have an issue with the statement made by the HRW, note that they are not saying he isn't guilty, nor is anyone in this thread. They're not even saying that there isn't ample evidence available to prove that he is guilty of the crimes charged. They're saying that the facts have not been presented to the court in an adequate manner so that the defense can at least make their statement. The trial has not been run in a manner that would equate to a fair system. At the very least, the judge should officially state that he is taking judicial notice of the evidence that exists outside the courtroom. Then the defense could make their statement, Saddam can be fairly judged guilty, and then hung like he should be.

It's just a matter of going through the motions, sure, but this is setting an example for the Iraq judiciary and government, as well as being a focus for the rebuilding of a nation. They could at least start by demanding a proper process before evoking retribution. Popular retribution for unexamined and untried crimes seems to be something that area already has too much of.
 
2006-11-21 10:41:43 PM  
Get over yourself, submitter.
 
2006-11-21 11:22:13 PM  
Someone should have done the rest of the world a favor and thrown a grenade down that 'spider hole.'
 
2006-11-21 11:25:19 PM  
PenguinTheRed: Sure, the trial was a farce. That's an unfortunate consequence when the defendant's guilt is so blindingly obvious. Sorry.

Uh, exactly the point. A first year law student could've convicted Saddam fairly, for multiple violations of international law. The fact that they didn't was why this was a farce and a mockery of justice. This only shows that Iraq is not a true sovereign nation, and has no functioning justice system. Really, this only prolongs the civil war rather than moving to end it.
 
2006-11-21 11:27:08 PM  
Deneb81: It's just a matter of going through the motions, sure, but this is setting an example for the Iraq judiciary and government, as well as being a focus for the rebuilding of a nation.

Bingo. Build a nation on a false trial and corruption, and you get a nation of... false trials and corruption. This is an awful way to start a new country.
 
2006-11-22 12:06:36 AM  
i just came into say that submitter and ericjohnson wont let facts, the law or anything else stand in their way of sitting at their desk playing armchair soldier/lawyer/judicial system
 
2006-11-22 12:34:24 AM  
PenguinTheRed
Sure, the trial was a farce. That's an unfortunate consequence when the defendant's guilt is so blindingly obvious. Sorry.

Uhh, what? When the guilt is overwhelmingly obvious it should be a slam dunk to get a conviction even with a fair trial (things like innocent until proven guilty, right to cross-examine witnesses, etc.).

I mean, breaking the rules seems like an admission that you couldn't get a conviction if you followed the rules, which shouldn't be the case.

El_Perro

Nice trampling of the smurf.
 
2006-11-22 12:42:34 AM  
Wow, so its ok to rig a trial for the guy you're trying to convict when he has overwhelming evidence against him.

Uh...what was the point of the trial again?
 
2006-11-22 11:36:56 AM  
ArbitraryConstant


It matters because for the process to have credibility, you have to have a process to follow that establishes that punishments aren't being handed out arbitrarily. For people to respect the rule of law in a country as young as the new Iraq, they have to see the law as something that can't be manipulated by the other guys (whoever that is in any particular instance) on a whim.



Saddam got a fair enough trial for their current LAWS. When Americans are tried in other countries they don't get tried under US law, why should Saddam be tried under different laws?
 
2006-11-22 11:43:28 AM  
Bugs_Bunny_Practiced_Psychological_Warfare

Wow, so its ok to rig a trial for the guy you're trying to convict when he has overwhelming evidence against him.

Uh...what was the point of the trial again?


There is no proof of rigging at all. The fact is that Saddam was tried under their laws. They make the laws not you or I. Sure the laws may be against what some people believe but it's what they have.

Many trials in America arent fair, look at juries awarding people MILLIONS in punitive damages, that to me is worse than Saddam being tried under the Iraq laws.
 
2006-11-22 12:53:31 PM  
FlashLV: Saddam got a fair enough trial for their current LAWS. When Americans are tried in other countries they don't get tried under US law, why should Saddam be tried under different laws?

What? The whole point of this report (PDF available here) is that, regardless of the issues involved in trying Saddam under then-nonexistent Iraqi law, the trial itself was horrendously flawed. It's not a matter of which laws were applied, it's a matter of the laws being applied in a grossly unfair manner.
 
2006-11-22 1:10:10 PM  
There is a BIG difference between guilt and a Fair Trial.

Just because Saddam is obviously guilty does NOT mean he got a fair trial.

I believe he was convicted by a kangaroo court of the worst sort. When someone is as obviously guilty as he is, there is simply no reason for a sham trial

It now seems likely he'll be executed based on the ruling of this kangaroo court. A fact that will probably be self defeating to the US and the Iraqi government.

This kangaroo court will just enforce Saddam's martyrdom in Iraq and perpetuate the myth that he wasn't really guilty at all. That the only way the US could get rid of him was to trump up charges and fix the verdict... A short sighted and very poor tactic.
 
2006-11-22 1:15:29 PM  
Now, call me crazy, but...

Why is it again that he is on trial for executions he ordered while he was the law in Iraq?

We have many state governors who order executions. Why is it that they are safe?

Oh, right, because we haven't had a country invade us and tell us we're completely backwards and they will fix us.
 
2006-11-22 3:53:29 PM  
to the submitter:
why it's a problem, it undermines belief in the justice system if you can't stage fair trials, especially the high profile ones. They're not saying that he shouldn't be guilty, they're saying he needs a fair trial.

Or do we not give fair trials for everyone now?

And looking at Iraq only makes it seem worse that the trial was mis-managed, they had a slam dunk case and messed it up, how much confidence does that give you?
 
2006-11-22 11:22:51 PM  
Hyperbolic Hyperbole

Did those state governors then have the defendants' families killed? And then his friends and neighbours and bury them in a mass grave? And then raze his house?

And Human Rights Watch is so full of crap. They devote so much energy to busting countries like Canada and Finland for using "child soldiers" because 17-year olds are allowed to enlist, but barely a word is said about poets in Cuba being sentenced to 25+ years in jail for pro-democracy writings. Their Cuba page is mostly dedicated to bashing America over its Guantanamo and embargo policies.
 
2006-11-23 12:34:13 AM  
Obviously subby hasn't looked at Iraq since we started running things.
 
2006-11-23 2:00:30 AM  
ericjohnson0: ...thrown a grenade down that hole.

I guess it's my turn to point out that you're not very smart.

1. No emotional capture/pursuant political upswing
2. No body
a. Fear for democratic elements that he might still be alive
b. Loyalty from Baathist elements because he might still be
alive
3. No trial - a lost chance for Iraqis to see western-style
justice, and a lost chance for national healing
 
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