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(Some Guy)   You know how everyone's saying the gap between the rich and poor just keeps getting wider? Not if you compare today's economy with the economy in the '90s   (opinionjournal.com) divider line
    More: Interesting  
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843 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Sep 2006 at 12:30 PM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



41 Comments     (+0 »)
 
2006-09-02 4:01:43 AM  
When these stories are printed, and they have been printing them as long as I have been reading, note the fact that they always talk about income taxes. They never compare all the fees, assessments and other forms of governmental collection of taxes, just income taxes. If you really want to be bold, look into just why that might be.
 
2006-09-02 8:37:17 AM  
They compare income taxes because its the easiest one to get, generic federal income tax info is in the public domain, unlike a lot of state taxes (property tax, water assesments, etc). But on the whole it is a good indication of the overall tax burden, the poor are less likely to own property, the primary tax source for state and local governments is property tax and sales tax, so the richer you are the more property you are likely to own thus more taxes and you are also more likely to buy stuff, thus paying more sales taxes.
I think my old economics teacher said it best "the rich got rich by investing in stock, the poor get poor by investing in wripple."
 
2006-09-02 10:37:41 AM  
Clinton = Bad

Bush = Good
 
2006-09-02 10:38:17 AM  
millerbear77: Clinton = Bad

Bush = Good


at least that is what the article told me...
 
2006-09-02 12:04:32 PM  
From TFA:

"Americans without a high-school diploma are losing ground against those who have college degrees. But this argues not for higher taxes on the rich, who already pay the vast bulk of U.S. taxes. It argues for reforming K-12 education so even the weakest and poorest students can compete against the world."

Thank you for saying that WSJ! Now I don't feel so alone in the world.
 
2006-09-02 12:49:07 PM  
The headline made me yawn, so I DRTFA.
 
2006-09-02 12:53:54 PM  
>> Americans without a high-school diploma are losing ground against those who have college degrees. But this argues not for higher taxes on the rich, who already pay the vast bulk of U.S. taxes. It argues for reforming K-12 education so even the weakest and poorest students can compete against the world."

Total bullshiat but what else would you expect from the Wall Street Urinal.

************************************************

Retraining Laid-Off Workers, but for What?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/business/yourmoney/26lou.html?pagewanted=1&e i=5070&en=6ee9319f78ec49ce&ex=1157342400

There are plenty of highly educated software people and engineers who's jobs have been outsourced too. Not to mention being replaced by h-1b guest workers brought into this country.
 
2006-09-02 12:56:30 PM  
"....and I was like 'fark ya'll! I don't need ya'll ANYWAY, I'm rich, biatch!"

/Boondocks FTW on rich/not so rich referecnes
 
2006-09-02 12:57:06 PM  
"We'd suggest readers ignore the inequality fad that is intended for election-year consumption and keep their eyes on what really matters--the policies that promote growth and prosperity for all Americans."

like..........What?
 
2006-09-02 1:05:17 PM  
>> "We'd suggest readers ignore the inequality fad that is intended for election-year consumption and keep their eyes on what really matters--the policies that promote growth and prosperity for all Americans."

They must be talking about periods 1 and 2 when the left leaning economic policies were in effect.

You can see that that raygun swing to the right did nothing except make inequality worse.


*****************************************************

http://64.226.238.78/PA/pk/pk226.shtml

1) The Great Compression, 1929-1947: The birth of middle-class America. The real wages of production workers in manufacturing rose 67 percent, while the real income of the richest 1 percent of Americans actually fell 17 percent.

2) The Postwar Boom, 1947-1973: An era of widely shared growth. Real wages rose 81 percent, and the income of the richest 1 percent rose 38 percent.

3) Stagflation, 1973-1980: Everyone lost ground. Real wages fell 3 percent, and the income of the richest 1 percent fell 4 percent.

4) The New Gilded Age, 1980-?: Big gains at the very top, stagnation below. Between 1980 and 2004, real wages in manufacturing fell 1 percent, while the real income of the richest 1 percent - people with incomes of more than $277,000 in 2004 - rose 135 percent.
 
2006-09-02 1:09:03 PM  
They're just trying to keep the populist hordes from the gate.
 
2006-09-02 1:17:31 PM  
>> They're just trying to keep the populist hordes from the gate.

yep and look at the convoluted stats they come up with.

And the whole subtext is that Clinton was a big liberal instituting all kinds of left wing policies .

What a desperate reach but thats all they got on their side at this point.

I love bad economies cause nothing does a better job of throwing conservatives out on their butt. Ask daddy shrub.
 
2006-09-02 1:24:28 PM  
So because the "wealth gap" did not explode over the past few years (or maybe even decreased a little bit) that means that it is no longer a problem?

/ Didn't RTFA
// Most economists are educated fools
/// Throw in taxes on goods / services (highly regressive), add in inflation, incurred household debt, and artifically high prices due to monopolies and redo that "study"
//// Slashies will stop the gap ! ! ! !
 
2006-09-02 1:27:21 PM  
"real wages in manufacturing fell 1 percent"

Plus the fact that onshore manufacturing has dropped 38% since 1980.

We are SO screwed, and we did it to ourselves.

 
2006-09-02 1:27:31 PM  
5 million more people in poverty than when shrub took office.

Yeah i believe the Wall Street Urinal.
 
2006-09-02 1:29:36 PM  
>> We are SO screwed, and we did it to ourselves.

Not really it was conservatives and their idiot followers that did it to us.
 
2006-09-02 1:31:26 PM  
Downward Mobility

Aug 30, 2006

If you're still harboring the notion that the economy is "good," prepare to be disabused.

Even the best number from yesterday's Census Bureau report for 2005 is bad news for most Americans. It shows that median income rose 1.1 percent last year, to $46,326, the first increase since it peaked in 1999. But the entire increase is attributable to the 23 million households headed by someone over age 65. So the gain is likely from investment income and Social Security, not wages and salaries.

For the other 91 million households, the median dropped, by half a percent, or $275. Incomes for the under-65 crowd were hurt by a decline in wages and salaries among full-time working men for the second year in a row, and among full-time working women for the third straight year. In all, median income for the under-65 group was $2,000 lower in 2005 than in 2001, when the last recession bottomed out.

Despite the Bush-era expansion, the number of Americans living in poverty in 2005 - 37 million - was the same as in 2004. This is the first time the number has not risen since 2000. But the share of the population now in poverty - 12.6 percent - is still higher than at the trough of the last recession, when it was 11.7 percent. And among the poor, 43 percent were living below half the poverty line in 2005 - $7,800 for a family of three. That's the highest percentage of people in "deep poverty" since the government started keeping track of those numbers in 1975.

As for the uninsured, their ranks grew in 2005 by 1.3 million people, to a record 46.6 million, or 15.9 percent. That's also worse than the recession year 2001, reflecting the rising costs of health coverage and a dearth of initiatives to help families and companies cope with the burden. For the first time since 1998, the percentage of uninsured children increased in 2005.

The Census findings are yet another indication that growth alone is not the answer to the economic and social ills of poverty, income inequality and lack of insurance. Economic growth was strong in 2005, and productivity growth was impressive. What have been missing are government policies that help to ensure that the benefits of growth are broadly shared - like strong support for public education, a progressive income tax, affordable health care, a higher minimum wage and other labor protections.

President Bush is unlikely to push for those changes, wed as he is to tax cuts that mainly benefit the wealthy. But the economic agenda for the next president couldn't be clearer.
 
2006-09-02 1:32:45 PM  
Sorry about not including the source in my previous post

New York Times editorial
 
2006-09-02 1:32:59 PM  
But all that new poverty must be fabulous for the "Wripple" industry.
 
2006-09-02 1:41:06 PM  
TwoHead: They never compare all the fees, assessments and other forms of governmental collection of taxes, just income taxes. If you really want to be bold, look into just why that might be.

Are there any links for sites that do?
 
2006-09-02 1:43:35 PM  
Pribar: I think my old economics teacher said it best "the rich got rich by investing in stock, the poor get poor by investing in wripple."

Your old econ teacher was an asshole.
 
2006-09-02 1:48:03 PM  
What is Wripple?
Google brings nothing.

/European
 
2006-09-02 1:51:51 PM  
How did the percentage share of total income of the top 1% plummet between '00 and '01 like that?
 
2006-09-02 1:57:04 PM  
JericoPaladin: How did the percentage share of total income of the top 1% plummet between '00 and '01 like that?


I would guess that is the Bush tax cut.
 
2006-09-02 2:09:27 PM  
Well, no, cause firstly that's a pitfall between Clinton's last days and Bush's first, so very little of what Bush could do would affect it. And secondly, a tax cut would likely affect it the other way. It just seems like the rich became less rich simply because Bush came to office, somehow 0_o
 
2006-09-02 2:24:50 PM  
>> Your old econ teacher was an asshole.

Yep.

And stupid enough to try to use a disproven philosopy like Calvinism to prop up a lie.
 
2006-09-02 3:33:44 PM  
Sounds like some folks are upset that this is an income tax that the article talks about. Not a wealth tax.

Personally, if I had the wealth of Ted Kennedy or Michael Soros or some of the others who cry about the poor, poor, pitiful poor, the government could have 100 percent of my meager income.

/ever notice the ones crying the most about the inequities, are the ones who have the most?
//just a casual observation
 
2006-09-02 3:55:54 PM  
Lard_Baron
What is Wripple?
Google brings nothing.


It's actually "Ripple".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_(wine)
 
2006-09-02 4:18:09 PM  
How to lie with statistics

He compares tax revenue of different income groups from the 90s with the tax revenue of the same groups now. But he makes no mention of what the income levels of these groups are. He just compares tax revenue, ignoring the fact that there have been tax rate changes since the 90s.

Then when he want to show increased tax revenue from the top 1%, does he compare revenue now with the 90s to be consistent? NO! He compares 2002 with 2004.

He must have spent all day pouring over stats in order to cherry pick the ones that agree with his talking point.
 
2006-09-02 4:24:13 PM  
Friskya

ever notice the ones crying the most about the inequities, are the ones who have the most?


Yes! It is just amazing how incredibly unselfish these people are!

They could just sit back and enjoy the extra money tax cuts give them. Instead they urge the government to do what is best for the country in spite of the cost to themselves.

A classic example is Warren Buffet; Even though most of his income is in the form of dividends, he still opposed tax cuts on dividends as being bad for the country.
 
2006-09-02 4:30:07 PM  
Mr. Buffet isn't a politician. He CHOSE to do this. I don't have the option. I'm TOLD whether or not I have enough by my government, with them ultimately deciding how much of MY money, I will be allowed to keep.

When Mr. Buffet can take what I have at the point of a gun (just like the IRS does, using the police power of the government) and can tell ME what I can (and should) do with MY earnings, then I'll consider that a valid comparison.

Until then, he's just a wealthy person with a big heart who needs to stay the f*ck out of my business.
 
2006-09-02 4:48:09 PM  
Friskya

I do not understand your reply. I responded to a comment you make about "ones crying the most". You mentioned Michael Soros. a Googl search finds no such person. I assumed you meant George Soros, who is not a politician. That is why I used Buffet as an example.

You mention a valid comparison. A valid comparison of what? Did you think I was comparing something?
 
2006-09-02 5:09:52 PM  
Burn98
A valid comparison of what? Did you think I was comparing something?

You're right. George Soros. My bad.

What I took out of your original post was, because Mr. Buffet made himself successful and decided on his own to redistribute that wealth, that this somehow made his observations on tax cuts valid.

I guarantee you, he's taken every single tax advantage that he was legally obligated to (remember - the IRS says that it wants only your fair share according to the tax code). It was his right to do so and he's a fool if he didn't. Since you obviously don't amass that type of fortune by being a fool, I don't think he passed them up.

My view is, he has his. I'm still trying to earn mine. Why is it important to him if I get the same tax cuts in the future that he's already been able to take advantage of in the past? Cuts that have, by the way, resulted in an enormous windfall to the government. It's easier (and cheaper, I imagine) to pay the reduced taxes, than it is to continue looking for new ways to hide your income.

And so, while it's unlikely that I'll ever be in a position to give away billions of MY HARD EARNED DOLLARS, Mr. Buffet shouldn't (and isn't) in a position to tell me that I have too many of them. The IRS is and they won't hesitate to come and take more of them.

Mr. Buffet, I might add, had the opportunity to donate his billions to the Federal government. A simple box on every tax form asks if you wish to make a donation to reduce the national debt. If he's that generous, why wouldn't he have done this and let the government decide where it goes, rather than distributing it himself? Perhaps he doesn't really trust the government to "do what is right" with it, any more than I do?

/I need to become a welfare mom
//some of them live better than I do
///EIC my ass
 
2006-09-02 5:21:05 PM  
It's quite obvious that this editorial (like most of WSJ's editorials) are written to make the top 2% of wage earners in this country feel a little less guilty about ruining America.

But this last paragraph?

In any event, it's a mistake to put much stock in these class-envy statistics on income shares, gini quotients, and wealth gaps that Washington and the media like to stress. There's nothing that policy makers can do about them in the short run, and a preoccupation with inequality will do actual harm if it leads to policies such as higher tax rates that reduce economic growth. We'd suggest readers ignore the inequality fad that is intended for election-year consumption and keep their eyes on what really matters--the policies that promote growth and prosperity for all Americans.
You hear that, blue chip America? PAY NO ATTENTION to that giant white elephant in the room! He's angry and growing angrier by the second, and pretty soon he will be out for your blood, but he doesn't matter! Don't even look at him! Here! I've got something shiny in my hand! You like Shiny Things, don't you?


/PS: "Class-envy"? fark YOU, Wall Street Journal.
 
2006-09-02 6:17:31 PM  
>> ever notice the ones crying the most about the inequities, are the ones who have the most?
just a casual observation

No just a dumb observation with no basis in reality.

Plenty of rich people don't give a shiat about the poor and plenty of people of modest means do care.

But it does show that we should ignore somebody like yourself that has nothing intelligent to say
 
2006-09-02 7:28:50 PM  
Really, the top 5%-10% wage-earners in America are paying 50%+ of their income in taxes?
 
2006-09-02 8:11:48 PM  
Actually, it's the top 5 to 10 percent of wage earners who pay 50 percent of the taxes that are collected. The other 90 to 95 percent being made up by the rest of us.

Oh, and I'm sure you know how to use the ignore settings, twilson2. Feel free to use them as you see fit.
 
2006-09-03 12:25:26 AM  
Burn98: He must have spent all day pouring over stats in order to cherry pick the ones that agree with his talking point.


WSJ opinion page manipulating numbers to fit its agenda? I'm SHOCKED.

[image from i6.photobucket.com too old to be available]
 
2006-09-03 8:28:32 AM  
The GDP growth is just the result of Bushco haemoraging money borrowed from the bank. He blows it, people spend it, and the economy grows - but it'll all need to be paid back eventually.
 
2006-09-03 10:25:00 AM  
I'm not sure how oblivious you'd have to be to believe this poorly-crafted tripe.

From TFA: "The majority of families with incomes under $40,000 pay no income tax at all".

Oh, so we should all be doing well, then, huh? I've made less than $40,000 for most of my adult life coontil recently, no thanks to anyone but myself), and I've paid 20% or higher income tax the whole time.

Yes, I'd get deductions if I had a family. Dependants. But, under the current administration's policies, basics for those family members like Insurance (all types), housing, and transportation would cost 3 or 4 times what I'd get back in income tax deductions.

The destruction of the middle class has very little to do with income taxes. I guess it's just the item that Bush himself has his finger on the control for. So their message really is "Bush only fiddled with the Income Tax, and it made you poor bastards a little less poor! It's not his fault you have to go into debt $20,000 a year just to stay employed and housed..." (not that I do, but I live a sad, lonely existence -- which is pretty cheap, actually)
 
2006-09-05 1:09:46 PM  
FTA: "The truth is that there has been a modest widening of the income gap in recent decades, regardless of which party is in power."

Well, I guess if both parties have allowed this in the past it must not be a problem then.

Thanks for the info.

Asshat.
 
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