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(News.com.au)   Australian newspaper publishes photos proving Hezbollah is hiding among civilians and wearing civilian clothing, both of which are war crimes under the Geneva Convention. But remember: This is all Israel's fault   (news.com.au) divider line
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954 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Jul 2006 at 6:24 PM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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Skail
2006-07-31 2:32:35 PM  
Submitters are so stupid about all of this. Not just this submitter, but all of them. Let me make this clear: This is both sides' fault. Neither side will be happy until the other one ceases to exist, and they're both willing to go to great lengths to get that to happen.

In short: BOTH sides are despicable, but in their own ways.
 
Bill_Wick's_Friend
2006-07-31 2:40:43 PM  
Neither side will be happy until the other one ceases to exist

I don't think Israel has any problems with Lebanon's "right to exist".

The other way 'round, however......


If Israel's enemies lay down their arms there would be no more fighting. If the Israelis lay down their arms there would be no more Israel.

This whole "oh, both side are bad!" exuse is pathetic. Israel's actions are an over-reation to the attack but they WERE attacked! If Quebec attacked Maine and the US army decided to take out BC infrastructure in 'revenge' or 'defense', I'd be angrier at the goddamned French sepratists than I'd be at the USA.
 
AtheistPreacher
2006-07-31 2:45:10 PM  
If Lebanon ceased to exist, Israel would have no more problem. This is such a clear cut issue.
 
bales
2006-07-31 2:46:41 PM  
AtheistPreacher: If Lebanon ceased to exist, Israel would have no more problem. This is such a clear cut issue.

exactly. how can we expect jesus to come back with those pesky brown people inhabiting his land?!
 
rockhound [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 2:50:07 PM  
Hey Bill_Wick's_Friend, what if Israel attacked and sank a US warship?

Which they did in 1967 to prevent the signals intelligence from being gathered and disseminated that could expose their own war crimes. Look up the USS Liberty.

The Israeli's aren't saints.
 
Boojum2k
2006-07-31 2:53:07 PM  
what if Israel attacked and sank a US warship?
Thanks for proving you're reciting spoond-fed bs, rather than looking it up yourself.
 
rockhound [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 2:56:35 PM  
Sorry, I did that from memory.

You've got me. I am totally discredited now.
 
Boojum2k
2006-07-31 2:59:23 PM  
Bill_Wick's_Friend already stated the obvious, that no one has been able to dispute: If Israel's enemies lay down their arms there would be no more fighting. If the Israelis lay down their arms there would be no more Israel.
 
Bill_Wick's_Friend
2006-07-31 3:01:14 PM  
Look up the USS Liberty.

Since all the official inquiries and reports say it was accidental AND since the only people espousing the belief of deliberate hostile actions are known neo-nazis and kooks (rense, david duke, stormfront) AND since the majority of the "facts" these groups use which point to a deliberate hostile act are misstated or exagerrated or are outright lies AND since there was no reason for Israel to have wanted the Liberty sunk....

....you're either deliberately dissminating lies or you're ignorant.
 
Skail
2006-07-31 3:04:43 PM  
I don't think "both sides are wrong" is a cop-out at all, B_W_F. You're right - Israel is overreacting. Big time. And Hezbollah is stupid and wrong for their attacks. Period.

But think of it this way - if someone in Texas abducted a couple Mexicans who were on the wrong side of the border and Mexico started lobbing missiles and shells into Houston, would that be acceptable? No. The guy who abducted the people is an asshat, and Mexico is retarded for their response. Both sides ARE wrong in this. I'm not fan of our unconditional support of Israel, and far less a fan of the fanatical muslims around them, but really, neither side is willing to give a REAL inch.
 
Pelagius
2006-07-31 3:08:23 PM  
None of those men, in those two photos, are dressed as women or children. Two of them are, however, wearing camoflague utilities..
 
Bill_Wick's_Friend
2006-07-31 3:24:16 PM  
if someone in Texas abducted a couple Mexicans who were on the wrong side of the border and Mexico started lobbing missiles and shells into Houston, would that be acceptable? No.

If the USA and Mexico were officially at war with each other? I think the Mexicans would consider that provocation and, yes, they'd send bombs or troops.

Put the shoe on the other foot. The "Campaign for a Free Tijuana" abducts a couple of border patrol officers and lobs a few shells at San Diego. Think the USA's response would be measured and mild? I'm sure whatever the response would be, the Mexican government would be unhappy with it and some civilians south of the Rio Grande are going to be killed. If all those people didn't vote for the CFT candidate, didn't bring tacos and cervecas to the CFT headquarters every afternoon and didn't allow the CFT to hide rocket launchers in their apartment blocks then I would probably feel more sympathy to their plight.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:00:04 PM  
AtheistPreacher: If Lebanon ceased to exist, Israel would have no more problem. This is such a clear cut issue.

That's a far cry from saying it's Israel's GOAL for Lebanon to cease to exist. Israel wants Lebanon to leave them alone; Lebanon wants Israel to die.

There is no moral equivalence here.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:04:22 PM  
Skail: if someone in Texas abducted a couple Mexicans who were on the wrong side of the border

Uh--bad analogy.

How about if a militant group in Texas murdered some Mexican soldiers, abducted two others and crossed the border with them--thus committing a war crime--then held the soldiers hostage and demanded the release of an American serial killer who smashed a little girl's head with a rock after murdering her father before her eyes?

Hezbollah's actions were both a war crime and an act of war. Furthermore, Hezbollah is directly responsible for all civilian deaths in Lebanon because they are hiding among civilians and disguising themselves as civilians.

That's another pair of war crimes, and their culpability in this--not Israel's--is also according to the Geneva Convention.
 
totalsecurity
2006-07-31 4:04:59 PM  
Photos can be faked. It happens every day on FARK.

And Israel is not committing war crimes?
 
heap
2006-07-31 4:06:10 PM  
almost sounds comparable to the british being cranky that those damned revolutionaries wouldn't just line up in uniform and exchange shots w/ their armies.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:08:01 PM  
Pelagius: None of those men, in those two photos, are dressed as women or children.

The article says they're blending in with women and children. That sounds like they're hiding among women and children to me, not trying to disguise themselves as women and children.

Note that the article also says Israel never bothered that entire area in Lebanon until Hezbollah came.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:08:36 PM  
totalsecurity: And Israel is not committing war crimes?

Such as?
 
totalsecurity
2006-07-31 4:12:01 PM  
2006-07-31 04:08:36 PM The CraneMeister
Google News
 
Skail
2006-07-31 4:23:11 PM  
I'm not one to demonize either side, The CraneMeister. I think both sides suck, personally, mostly because both are radical on their own side. Whereas I admire Israel's usual restraint, it's actions like that that very quickly leave a bad taste in my mouth. If you want to be seen as the "correct" side you have to respond rationally, not by blowing the fark out of anyone within proximity of your targets.

Yes, they were attacked. Yes, they're frequently attacked. I'm pretty charitable to Israel when it comes to their responses, even though I believe their policy of assassination is completely inappropriate. But this is like trying to crush a fly with a sledgehammer - you're never going to succeed and you'll just end up smashing your house in.

To address your point, you're also making a terrible analogy. Your "point" is only to demonize the "enemy" and make it known that they are absolutely wrong and your are absolutely right. And that's what's going down over there, and that's what's going to continue to happen until people stop seeing things in terms of black and white. Sure, Hezbollah are generally not good people - or, at least, their cause is not. And I believe that Israel's cause is usually just. BUT, I believe that both sides are complete dumbasses regarding how they go about expressing themselves. And don't pretend Israel is innocent - those who pay attention aren't buying it.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:27:09 PM  
totalsecurity: Google News

All I saw were editorials, articles quoting political rhetoric and articles about another "massacre" that probably didn't happen at all (viz., Qana, a la Jenin).

Israel is not populated with angels. But their response to the Hezbollah attacks is well within international war protocols and the Geneva Conventions, whereas Hezbollah has violated several (abductions, crossing the border, not wearing uniforms, hiding among civilians).

According to the Geneva Convention, if military personnel don't wear uniforms and/or hide among civilians, any civilian casualties that ensue are automatically NOT the attacking army's fault.

Sounds ugly, and it is. But it means the civilian casualties are Hezbollah's fault, not Israel's. There's no nice way to wage a war.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:30:40 PM  
Skail: Your "point" is only to demonize the "enemy" and make it known that they are absolutely wrong and your are absolutely right.

I don't have a dog in this race; it's not me against Hezbollah. However, I think my analogy was a bit more accurate than talking about a couple of Texans abducting a couple of Mexicans. Hezbollah is a paramilitary group; they violated a number of Geneva protocols when they killed/abducted the Israeli soldiers, and they're holding hostages to try to get another war criminal released--a guy who murdered a little girl's father and made her watch, then smashed her skull against a rock with a rifle butt.

It's hard to demonize people like that--they're doing it very well themselves.
 
rose8199 [OhFark]
2006-07-31 4:31:18 PM  
Both sides suck
 
Bill_Wick's_Friend
2006-07-31 4:31:59 PM  
TheCraneMeister

Human Rights Watch IS declaring that the Israelis' less-than-precision missile attacks are, indeed, war crimes.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/30/lebano13881.htm

Of course HRW has been documenting Hizbullah's war crimes in the area -- their mere existence as an armed non-state militia which attacks a sovereign neighbour, for instance -- for a decade.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Neither Hizbullah nor Israel really give a crap about the condemnation from the western NGO and neither is in any way likely to alter their behaviours based upon such condemnation.
 
rose8199 [OhFark]
2006-07-31 4:43:29 PM  
The CraneMeister: Israel is not populated with angels. But their response to the Hezbollah attacks is well within international war protocols and the Geneva Conventions, whereas Hezbollah has violated several (abductions, crossing the border, not wearing uniforms, hiding among civilians)


True, but Israel's tactics have been terrible. I was listening to a retired Colonel on NPR today. He was saying that strategic bombing in this situation is pretty pointless. They destroy the country's infrastructure (and some supply routes), but it doesn't accomplish anything. The people that are launching the rockets are doing so from the back of pick-up trucks. They set off a bomb and then drive a way. Another person in the interview called it a "shoot and scoot" tactic. You don't beat that with strategic bombing. By the time you bomb a sight, the bomber is long gone. The Colonel suggested a tactic like what was used in Afganistan.

By fighting in this way, Israel has allowed Hezbollah to bait it into targeting places near civilians. Now the world is pissed at Israel (and the USA for supporting them). This war is really not doing Israel or the USA any good.

Here's a link to the NPR interview. It's very interesting (and NOT completely liberal as some may say). They also interview someone who disagrees with this Colonel. I don't think the audio is up yet, but it will be later.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5594968

(pops)
 
orrinbloquy
2006-07-31 4:48:00 PM  
Bill_Wick's_Friend: If the Israelis lay down their arms there would be no more Israel.

Did I miss the part where magically every Jew on the planet crumbles to ashes right after that?

What are you defending and why?
 
Bill_Wick's_Friend
2006-07-31 4:50:20 PM  
Did I miss the part where magically every Jew on the planet crumbles to ashes right after that?

No. You miss the part where Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Hamas, Hezbullah and (just for shiats and giggles) Lybia all mass their armies and "drive the Jews into the sea" as is the stated goal in their charters and covenants.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:52:47 PM  
rose8199: True, but Israel's tactics have been terrible.

Arguable, but so stipulated. Bad tactics are not war crimes.
 
rose8199 [OhFark]
2006-07-31 4:53:59 PM  
The CraneMeister: Bad tactics are not war crimes.


Intentionally bad tactics could be.

"Opps! I didn't mean to blow up that house full of children or that UN post. My bad."
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:56:10 PM  
Bill_Wick's_Friend: Human Rights Watch IS declaring that the Israelis' less-than-precision missile attacks are, indeed, war crimes.

Sorry, but this is just another editorial. HRW is free to accuse them of "indiscriminate" bombing all they want, but the fact remains that civilians are getting bombed because Hezbollah is using them as shields--which makes Hezbollah, not Israel, the war criminals.
 
Abagadro
2006-07-31 4:56:40 PM  
You mean to tell me a guerrilla movement uses a civilian population for cover?

Cue Inspector Renault.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 4:57:45 PM  
rose8199: Intentionally bad tactics could be.

[image from fadtoys.com too old to be available]

"You used up all the glue ON PURPPOSE!"
 
rose8199 [OhFark]
2006-07-31 4:58:48 PM  
The CraneMeister: "You used up all the glue ON PURPPOSE!"


Exactly! ;)
 
Bill_Wick's_Friend
2006-07-31 4:59:23 PM  
Sorry, but this is just another editorial.

Yes, but HRW's editorializing holds more weight than "People's Daily" or "Conspiracy Planet" or any of the Arab press/blogs cited in totalsecurity's link.
 
Sensei Can You See [TotalFark]
2006-07-31 5:02:25 PM  
Bill_Wick's_Friend: HRW's editorializing holds more weight

Feh.

HRW has been so quick to accuse every nation in the world of war crimes that they've got all the credibility of a Pat Buchanan and Michael Moore love child.
 
Abagadro
2006-07-31 5:04:58 PM  
All this current war will show (for the approximately 43rd time) is that you can't eradicate or defeat a guerrilla movement with air power and all you end up doing is 1) killing lots of people that had nothing to do with anything; 2) pissing off the population to the point where you almost always feed the movement you were trying to suppress.

All this quibbling about who is committing what war crime is pointless as the real issue is what is being accomplished. The answer to that is: nothing.
 
rose8199 [OhFark]
2006-07-31 5:09:15 PM  
Abagadro: All this quibbling about who is committing what war crime is pointless as the real issue is what is being accomplished. The answer to that is: nothing.


Exactly. Nothing but lots of fighting and people dying.
 
Bill_Wick's_Friend
2006-07-31 5:27:54 PM  
...a Pat Buchanan and Michael Moore love child

That, sir, is one butt-ugly child.

My only point in posting that HRW link was because I really don't think Israel is 100% in the "right" on this forray. As stated before, however, I don't think Israelis care or will alter their tactics based upon international condemnation.

I do think that if someone is going to shout "war crimes!" they should cite Amnesty International, HRW or some other internationally respected (no, not by you, but by others) group rather than screaming "war crimes!" and citing the Popular Palestinian Front for Gaza Socialist Reform or some other group of whackos as was done above.

/clarity
 
Weaver95
2006-07-31 5:30:59 PM  
It wasn't "just" two kidnapped soldiers. It was the straw that broke the camel's back... Hezbollah had been pulling this crap since Israel withdrew from their country in May 2000.


I think Hezbollah never expected any sort of organized response out of Israel out of this.
 
Abagadro
2006-07-31 5:36:36 PM  
I think Hezbollah never expected any sort of organized response out of Israel out of this.

I agree. There has been sort of a de facto ROE about this sort of stuff for a long time (it goes both ways, not just unilaterally with Hezbollah attacking Israel). Israel apparently had enough and decided to take it to this degree. I personally think it is highly counterproductive, but it does mark a pretty significant departure from prior actions.
 
mrexcess
2006-07-31 5:37:07 PM  
Top story on GIYUS? SWEET! GREENLIGHT!

/read up on GIYUS
 
Abagadro
2006-07-31 5:41:19 PM  
It's not fark, its AIPAC.com?
 
Weaver95
2006-07-31 6:05:01 PM  
I personally think it is highly counterproductive, but it does mark a pretty significant departure from prior actions.


I really do lay the blame for this on Hezbollah. They've done their level best to derail any hope of peace in the middle east.
 
mrexcess
2006-07-31 6:10:27 PM  
Weaver95
I really do lay the blame for this on Hezbollah.

They definitely own their share of it, but so do the people who actually drop bombs that kill hundreds of civilians, and order strikes that render hundreds of thousands homeless.
 
Weaver95
2006-07-31 6:18:48 PM  
They definitely own their share of it, but so do the people who actually drop bombs that kill hundreds of civilians, and order strikes that render hundreds of thousands homeless.


yeah, but Hezbollah goes out of their way to hide military targets close to civilians. Sure, it's easy to blame Israel for collateral damage, but think about the mindset of the guys they're up against. it's part of Hezbollah tactical doctrine to get as many civilians blown up as possible.
 
EzraS
2006-07-31 6:29:12 PM  
Skail

But think of it this way - if someone in Texas abducted a couple Mexicans who were on the wrong side of the border and Mexico started lobbing missiles and shells into Houston, would that be acceptable? No.

How about if a terrorist organization based in texas, dedicated to killing mexicans and wiping out mexico, kidnapped a couple of mexicans, and then mexico warned ordinary texans to leave houston and then proceeded to attack the terrorist orgnization while trying to minimize civillian casualties? How about then?

Its amazing how one can twist reality using a shiatty anology.
 
Abagadro
2006-07-31 6:29:49 PM  
Their is plenty of blame to go around frankly. It would take a book to catalogue and disect the ins and outs of who did what to who when. Israel hasn't done itself (or anyone else) any favors with some of their policies of late.
 
Weaver95
2006-07-31 6:32:34 PM  
Israel hasn't done itself (or anyone else) any favors with some of their policies of late.


Oh i'm not giving them a free pass either. they've done some pretty questionable things too. But as a rule, they don't sacrifice their civilian population to achieve military and political objectives like Hezbollah does.
 
Weaver95
2006-07-31 6:33:37 PM  
How about if a terrorist organization based in texas, dedicated to killing mexicans and wiping out mexico, kidnapped a couple of mexicans, and then mexico warned ordinary texans to leave houston and then proceeded to attack the terrorist orgnization while trying to minimize civillian casualties? How about then?


I think if Texas wanted to capture mexico, we'd have a 51st state.
 
EzraS
2006-07-31 6:34:42 PM  
2006-07-31 06:29:12 PM EzraS

Damn, TheCraneMeister beat me to it.
 
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