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(Some Guy)   Raising the minimum wage doesn't help the poor, but it does make it harder for teens to find jobs   (opinionjournal.com) divider line
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508 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Jun 2006 at 11:43 AM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2006-06-23 10:27:25 AM  
No shiat, Sherlock.
 
2006-06-23 10:39:36 AM  
Raising the minimum wage only helps one group of people - politicians.
 
2006-06-23 10:40:02 AM  
Needs the "obvious" tag.
 
2006-06-23 10:40:07 AM  
The main flaw in such thinking is that no one has ever demonstrated that raising the minimum wage reduces poverty. How can that be? Well, partly it's because the vast majority of minimum-wage earners are not, in fact, poor. Of an estimated 87% who are not, many live in households where two or more people work and where combined incomes may be two or three times the poverty level. Then there are young people and teenagers, who are more likely to earn the minimum wage than any other group. A significant number of them have high-income parents.

Wow, just wow. Don't raise the minimum wage because we all know parents of teenagers are rich so the kids don't need the money anyway. Wonderful.
 
2006-06-23 10:40:10 AM  
Its funny that the same arguments are made each time they talk about raising it. When they finally do, the world manages to not come to a screeching halt.
 
2006-06-23 10:41:50 AM  
Paper Monkey: Its funnysad and wrong that the same arguments are made each time they talk about raising it. When they finally do, the world manages to not come to a screeching halt.

Fixed it for ya.
 
2006-06-23 10:43:33 AM  
What really helps the poor is the elimination of the estate tax.
 
2006-06-23 10:43:43 AM  
Christ am I sick of conservatives warping the dismal science to justify their own brazen selfishness.
 
2006-06-23 10:47:43 AM  
I think politicians should get paid market rates
 
2006-06-23 10:48:42 AM  
75% of those earning minimum wage in 2004 were 20 or older.

And that ignores the fact that a lot of other salaries a few dollars higher than minimum tend to be Influenced by the minimum wage level.

but hey, as long as we don't stop teens from get jobs everythings ok right?
 
2006-06-23 10:49:11 AM  
I still like Killary's bill that would raise the the minimum wage every time congress votes themselves a pay raise.
 
2006-06-23 10:49:29 AM  
I think politicians should get paid no base, commission only. Voted upon 50% by constituency and 50% nationwide polling.
 
2006-06-23 10:50:42 AM  
HaywoodJablonski: I think politicians should get paid market rates

I think politicians should get paid half what a PFC fresh out of boot camp gets. That goes for the POTUS as well.
 
2006-06-23 10:51:56 AM  
hitchking: Christ am I sick of conservatives warping the dismal science to justify their own brazen selfishness.

So am I. I want to see them say, "It's my money, I earned it, and I don't want to share. If you don't like it, then eat shiat and bark at the moon!"
 
2006-06-23 10:52:23 AM  
This drives me crazy. Look at the U.S. Dept. of Labor statistics and you get a clearer picture of minimum wage workers:


* Fewer than 1/4 of all minimum wage workers are under 19. Interesting that the WSJ fails to mention this.

* The majority are between 20 and 25. Maybe from an upper middle class perspective this seems to support the argument that minimum wage only affects "young people," but working class 24 year olds LIVE ON this income! Oh, and before you say "those numbers are just college students at their jobs," you should know that the average college work study job earns $10.50/hr.

* Women are twice as likely as men to receive minimum wage. Surprise surprise!

* The highest percent of minimum wage workers are in "leisure and hospitality" (read: "cleaning hotel rooms"). This is not a typical "teen summer job." It is a job worked primarily by immigrant and minority women.

* The WSJ chooses to ignore state minimum wages. Of course the number of workers making $5.15 is limited... the wage hasn't been raised in 10 years!

But facts don't really matter here. The WSJ will just keep repeating the GOP talking points. I'm proud that both my Republican Senators in aine voted FOR the wage hike.
 
2006-06-23 10:52:45 AM  
So, if we lower the minimum wage to, say, $2 per hour, then poor people will be much better off, and all teens will be able to find jobs?
 
2006-06-23 10:53:16 AM  
Father Jack Hacket: 75% of those earning minimum wage in 2004 were 20 or older.

and 74% at or below minimum wage in 2005 were 20 or older.
 
2006-06-23 10:53:57 AM  
Gwendolyn: Don't raise the minimum wage because we all know parents of teenagers are rich so the kids don't need the money anyway.

Right. Children don't comes from poor families. Only rich people have children.

Since the author couldn't back up any of his assertion with a real number, just his guesses, I'll provide some facts for him.

16% of American children-more than 11 million-lived in poor families in 2002, meaning their parents' income was at or below the federal poverty level. These parents are typically unable to provide their families with basic necessities like stable housing and reliable child care.
37% of American children-more than 26 million-lived in low-income families in 2002. Their parents made less than 200% of the federal poverty line (FPL). These families often face material hardships and financial pressures similar to those families who are officially counted as poor.


And, the relevant part on those "rich" teenagers,
32% of adolescents- low income: 6.2 million (poor: 2.4 million)

source(pops)
 
2006-06-23 10:54:22 AM  
Make that: "...Senators in MAINE..."
 
2006-06-23 10:55:46 AM  
Seneca Doane: This drives me crazy. Look at the U.S. Dept. of Labor statistics and you get a clearer picture of minimum wage workers:

If you spend more than a year making just minimum wage -- whether state or federal -- then I have five words for you:

Screw you. I've got mine.

 
2006-06-23 10:57:57 AM  
If you spend more than a year making just minimum wage then I have five words for you: Screw you. I've got mine.

AGAIN, take a look at which kind of jobs these are. If you're working cleaning hotel rooms, there isn't a huge opportunity for upward mobility.
 
2006-06-23 10:59:32 AM  
the_rev: So, if we lower the minimum wage to, say, $2 per hour, then poor people will be much better off, and all teens will be able to find jobs?

Here's a better idea...

We abolish the minimum wage laws, child-labor laws, and repeal the 13th amendment.
Then, everyone will be able to find a job.

Let the market dictate everything. I'm sure our fine corporate citizens will make the right choices.
 
2006-06-23 10:59:34 AM  
TFA assumes that if minimum wage goes up, anyone already making more than minimum wage won't see any change. I think that's bull. I'm sure some people won't see any change, but many others will. Sure they're making more than $5.15 an hour right now, but they may still be working at the same place where the new people get the minimum. In many businesses, when the starting wage goes up, it puts pressure on all of their wages to go up. To an extent this would apply to the wage labor market as a whole too.

Also, from the TFA:
It won't happen to everyone, and some businesses will adjust to the new labor costs. Yet the record is clear, and understandable. Why pay four kids, an employer may well reason, when for the same, now higher, minimum salary I may be able to attract three adults with a bit more experience?


So what's wrong with that? Three adults trying to make a living probably need the job more than four teenagers living with their parents. In the long run I don't think the writer's concern here will be an issue anyway though. The market will adjust and I'm very confident that we'll still see primarily teenagers working the fast food counter.

On a side note, I don't know about other areas, but around here I've never seen a major shortage of low paying, part time jobs at restaurants and retail outlets. You know, the jobs that teenagers most often work.

In conclusion, TFA is full of shiat.
 
2006-06-23 10:59:47 AM  
Here is the thing...

A lot of people NEED to make minimum wage in order to be eligable for welfare, section 8 housing, medicare/medicaid. Where it might seem unfair that they pay a crappy wage, it also makes you eligable for like 40k in benefits.

What sucks is that us working folk then have to subsidze companies like Wal-Mart who pay a low wage in welfare benefits.
 
2006-06-23 11:01:59 AM  
"The main flaw in such thinking is that no one has ever demonstrated that raising the minimum wage reduces poverty."

How many minimum wage increases have we had? Has poverty decreased at all?

How many of these teenages are working their way through college? Even at a community college?

Raising the minimum wage is inflationary and counter to a free market. The free market should set the wages. If the wages are too low, employers will have a difficult time finding employees.

This should have the obvious tag.
 
2006-06-23 11:02:34 AM  
Programmer Cat
So am I. I want to see them say, "It's my money, I earned it, and I don't want to share. If you don't like it, then eat shiat and bark at the moon!"


heh... that would be nice. For those from rich families it might be stretching the truth a lot, but at least they'd be telling us what they really think.
 
2006-06-23 11:02:49 AM  
How about we adjust it for inflation every 5 years? That wouldn't really increase the burden on employers since the compensation would be worth the same amount.
 
2006-06-23 11:04:15 AM  
Seneca Doane: If you're working cleaning hotel rooms, there isn't a huge opportunity for upward mobility.

Should there be? I mean, there are almost no skills required for the job. Anyone with a bare minimum education can do this. It's not particularly dangerous or overly strenuous. What is the economic value of the work? Some jobs simply aren't worth more than that. Dropping fries is not a career. I had a number of mimimum wage jobs until I graduated from college, and I didn't consider any of them - bagging groceries, bussing tables, working the front desk in dorms - as anything else but worth minimum wage.
 
2006-06-23 11:05:53 AM  
patrick767: I think that's bull

I think you are right. That is where the cost of living goes up yet again...
 
2006-06-23 11:07:18 AM  
slayer199
Raising the minimum wage is inflationary and counter to a free market. The free market should set the wages. If the wages are too low, employers will have a difficult time finding employees.


The free market, unchecked, leads to a significant number of people living in grinding poverty. Minimum wage, like welfare, attempts to raise the standard of living of the poorest in our country and give them a little better chance of raising themselves up and providing for their kids. I for one am fine with that.
 
2006-06-23 11:07:33 AM  
patrick767: heh... that would be nice. For those from rich families it might be stretching the truth a lot, but at least they'd be telling us what they really think.

Those who are members of the "idle rich" can just drop the "I earned it" part and say, "It's my money, and I don't want to share. Bugger off!" I swear by my wife's heart-shaped ass that some people, when it comes to wealth and property, still have a kindergarten-level mentality and think that everybody should want to share with everybody else.
 
2006-06-23 11:08:00 AM  
Programmer Cat - you act as though there is unlimited opportunity in the workplace for exchange mobility, for everyone to rise in the system if they just TRY hard enough. The problem is that this just doesn't make sense. If federal minimum wage is $5.15/hr and EVERYONE in the American workforce busts their ass and really does everything they can, there will still be people making $5.15/hr. That's just the structure of the wage stratification.

It's like what good old Ron Reagan said: "In America, anyone can be a millionaire." What he failed to mention is that not EVERYONE can be a millionaire. The system just doesn't support it. Which, for the record, is exactly the problem with your cherished "rational self-interest" life philosophy.

---

Nabb1: Some jobs simply aren't worth more than that. Dropping fries is not a career.

And therein lies the problem. For the American economy to work, SOMEONE has to work cleaning hotel rooms and operating the fryolator. Since the system dictates that someone HAS to work these low-skill jobs, why can't we at least make sure that they can feed their kids?!
 
2006-06-23 11:08:52 AM  
patrick767: The free market, unchecked, leads to a significant number of people living in grinding poverty.

There has never been any such thing as a free market. There will be no such thing as a "free market" as long as there are taxes, regulations, and governments granting monopolies, franchises, subsidies, and other privileges.
 
2006-06-23 11:09:49 AM  
patrick767: The free market, unchecked, leads to a significant number of people living in grinding poverty indentured servitude.
 
2006-06-23 11:10:57 AM  
Seneca Doane: Since the system dictates that someone HAS to work these low-skill jobs, why can't we at least make sure that they can feed their kids?!

Deciding to raise a family by dropping fries is a poor plan. Very poor. If a fifteen year old kid can do it with about three days of training, the breadwinner needs to aim a little higher.
 
2006-06-23 11:12:31 AM  
Seneca Doane: Which, for the record, is exactly the problem with your cherished "rational self-interest" life philosophy.

No, not everybody can be a millionaire. It is possible to earn a living and be comfortable if you do a few relatively simple things:

1. Work hard at a valuable job. Here's a hint: if you can be replaced by a robot or a chimp, your job isn't valuable.
2. Stop living on credit. Pay cash or do without.
3. Stop listening to the advertisers. You don't need to buy a PlayStation3 on launch day to be happy. You don't need a brand-new car. You don't need those $200 jeans.
4. Learn to stop chasing after instant gratification.

I'm not a millionaire. I'm still comfortable and reasonably happy.
 
2006-06-23 11:15:06 AM  
Ah, here's something interesting.

A minimum wage increase of $2.10 by 2007 would raise the wages of 7.3 million workers. A minimum wage increase is needed to restore the minimum wage to historic levels. The inflation-adjusted value of the minimum wage is 26% lower in 2004 than it was in 1979. In addition, comparing the wages of minimum wage workers to average hourly wages, we find that the wages of minimum wage workers have not kept up with the wages of other workers. The minimum wage is 33% of the average hourly wage of American workers, the lowest level since 1949.

Congress has not increased the minimum wage in seven years-the second-longest stretch of government inaction since the minimum wage was enacted in 1938. When Congress does not increase the minimum wage, the minimum wage continues to lose value.


I say keep the minimum wage at the same value. Not updating it is a reduction.
 
2006-06-23 11:15:13 AM  
No one is taking into account the fact that many employers use minimum wage as a guage when deciding what a fair wage should be for non-introductory jobs.

"I think this job should be worth $1-$2 above minimum wage to start."
or
"I think this job should be worth $3-$4 above minimum wage to start."

This logic is an extremely common business practice, especially with small and mid-size businesses. When you shorten the bottom of the bell curve, it moves the entire curve.

/raising middle wage=good for everyone but the top 5%
 
2006-06-23 11:17:17 AM  
Nabb1: Deciding to raise a family by dropping fries is a poor plan.

I don't think anyone has ever planned to exist like that. But, unfortunately, it happens. Is that our fault? Of course not.

But, I think anyone working full-time in the US should be bringing more than $730 a month.

Jeebus, that's less that my rent. I hadn't actually thought about it before.
 
2006-06-23 11:18:00 AM  
Minimum wage is hilarious. It's the Left's version of the Flag Burning Amendment. It's totally stupid and intellectually indefensible, but it rallies the troops for November.
 
2006-06-23 11:18:15 AM  
bluescalequail
I think you are right. That is where the cost of living goes up yet again...


Some things we buy will get a bit more expensive. That's true. That's always true when you set a minimum wage. In the past we as a country have chosen to do it anyway to help raise the living standard of our poorest citizens. The raise they get is, percentage wise, considerably higher than the increased living cost.

milk_plus
How about we adjust it for inflation every 5 years? That wouldn't really increase the burden on employers since the compensation would be worth the same amount.


That should be obvious, but raising minimum wage is always a battle because some on the right think it shouldn't even exist. They want to keep it as low as they can.

By the way, if we figure 2.5% inflation a year since 1997 (that's a guess, I think it's fairly close), then we're at approximately 25% inflation total in the 9 years since then. So based on the 1997 figure, the wage should be $6.44 now. At the same inflation rate in 3 more years the inflation since 1997 will hit 34.5%. $5.15 plus 34.5% is $6.93.
 
2006-06-23 11:19:26 AM  
Nabb1

Deciding to raise a family by dropping fries is a poor plan. Very poor. If a fifteen year old kid can do it with about three days of training, the breadwinner needs to aim a little higher.

So now the poor have to consult before they can even consider having a family? Good lord. It's easy to sit back and say they should do this or do that. Reality is often different. My whole perspective changed on this a few years ago while buying groceries. I heard two workers having a conversation while waiting to rotate tills - One was explaining to the other that she had to give up putting money aside for her sons education so she could pay for insurance. Tough call.

Being on the low end of the employment chain shouldn't decide if someone can have a family or not. And if it does, then perhaps we should consider allowing the poor more access to birth control and abortion. Or is that too much to ask?
 
2006-06-23 11:19:30 AM  
DeathBySarcasm
No one is taking into account the fact that many employers use minimum wage as a guage when deciding what a fair wage should be for non-introductory jobs.


That was part of my point in my Boobies. You put it much more clearly though.
 
2006-06-23 11:19:58 AM  
Deciding to raise a family by dropping fries is a poor plan. Very poor

Exactly, VERY POOR! As in, it's the only option available to many VERY POOR adults. I know this is hard to imagine, but there are regions in this country (and even in your state) where there is 30%+ unemployment. Many people simply don't have the option of working in a better job with better pay and opportunity for advancement.

And before you say, "well those people should move to a region with more opportunity," you should stop and think. There are only so many jobs available in the American economy. No matter how you rearrange the people who need jobs, there will still be two factors that will get in the way of your "boot-straps" approach. First, the number of people that exceed the number of overall available jobs will remain the same. If there is 5% unemployment nationally, there will be 5% of people without jobs, no matter how you shuffle the population. Second, the STRUCTURE of the available jobs will remain the same. Again, shuffle the population however you want, but a growing number of the available jobs in the nation are still going to be low-wage service sector jobs.

It's really very simple when you just stop and imagine it that way.
 
2006-06-23 11:20:30 AM  
DeathBySarcasm

You're assuming that if minimum wage level is raised, bosses will automatically maintain the gap between the minimum wage and what they pay. This is not the case.

/Hong Kong doesn't have a minimum wage for locals
//And we do just fine
 
2006-06-23 11:21:13 AM  
Seneca Doane: That's just the structure of the wage stratification.

[image from images.despair.com too old to be available]
 
2006-06-23 11:21:36 AM  
vliam: I don't think anyone has ever planned to exist like that. But, unfortunately, it happens. Is that our fault? Of course not.

It's more or less the individual's "fault." I'm looking at this in terms of economic value. When you raise the minimum wage, that money comes from somewhere. Some jobs simply aren't economically worth the increase.
 
2006-06-23 11:23:27 AM  
patrick767

That was part of my point in my Boobies.

Priceless!
 
2006-06-23 11:24:00 AM  
patrick767: By the way, if we figure 2.5% inflation a year since 1997 (that's a guess, I think it's fairly close), then we're at approximately 25% inflation total in the 9 years since then.

Which is why...

Members of Congress earned an annual $133,600 at the time the minimum wage was last raised. With their new raise to $168,500 per year, this represents a 26% pay hike over the past 10 years, compared with a 0% increase in the minimum wage.
 
2006-06-23 11:24:15 AM  
Seneca Doane: Exactly, VERY POOR! As in, it's the only option available to many VERY POOR adults.

Tough titty, said the kitty. In case you haven't noticed, we're all in competition with each other for money and resources. If I'm doing better than you because I was dealt a better hand and did a better job of playing the hand I was dealt, why should I care if you're not doing as well as I am.
 
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