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(Some Mohel)   If you're planning on performing oral-suction circumcisions in NY, there are new guidelines. What. The. Hell   (lohud.com) divider line
    More: PSA  
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23436 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Jun 2006 at 12:53 PM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2006-06-21 9:03:41 AM  
again, i'm telling you, we need a WTF? tag!!!
 
2006-06-21 9:08:17 AM  
The centuries-old practice, called metzizah bi peh or metzitzah b'peh, involves a mohel using his mouth to suction blood from the wound after the foreskin is removed.


Gaaaah ! WTF ! !
 
2006-06-21 9:10:04 AM  
Maybe this will work in this thread, it certainly didn't in the previous one about this.

[image from cec.wustl.edu too old to be available]

tatsuma, what's the explanation / justification in Jewish law for allowing an elderly rabbi to suck on a babies penis? I really want to hear this one.
 
2006-06-21 9:11:57 AM  
"rinse mouth thoroughly with a mouthwash containing greater than 25 percent alcohol"

Well, duh!

You'd have to get drunk before doing something like that wouldn't you?
 
2006-06-21 9:15:59 AM  
I'm sure the residue from that high-alcohol-content wash feels great on a bleeding wound, too.
 
2006-06-21 9:19:16 AM  
i remember reading the original article and being dumbfounded..herpies from a rabbi to newborns through circumcision. BLECK! Just another reason for all the non-cuts to celebrate.
 
2006-06-21 9:22:09 AM  
Holy crap, the Jooz really do drink the blood of newborns.
 
2006-06-21 9:36:03 AM  
Occams_Electric_Razor:
Holy crap, the Jooz really do drink the blood of newborns.

I feel so bad for saying/thinking/laughing at that, but that has to be one of the funniest things I've ever read. The spelling helped a lot.
 
2006-06-21 9:43:26 AM  
Holy Moheley

/got nothing
/not under these circums...tances
 
2006-06-21 10:14:27 AM  
ewww...

/must.get.clean.
 
2006-06-21 10:30:55 AM  
I'd rather have that than a circumcision performed by Shakey the Mohel.
 
2006-06-21 10:38:38 AM  
"and says mohels should "rinse mouth thoroughly with a mouthwash containing greater than 25 percent alcohol" for at least 30 seconds."

Does that get the taste of baby-dick out of your mouth?
 
2006-06-21 10:40:57 AM  
FTFA:
The ritual is performed by Hasidic and ultra-Orthodox Jews.

Most other Jewish mohels wear surgical gloves and use sterilized instruments to perform the circumcision rite. Many other mohels who perform the oral part of the ritual use a medical tube to suction the blood, several rabbis have said.


The name of the action is "Metzitzah b'peh" which roughly means "suction by the mouth". It's considered to be an Halachic-approved method part of the Brit Milah (circumcision of infant boys)

It's not really "suction" as much as you'd suck venom from a snake biting you. The Mohel spits the blood in a prepared plate right after it. He does it only once, too.

It's origins are from the Mishnah (but don't ask me which Tractate) which states it as one of the steps of the Bris.

You have to realize something: this was a purely hygenic practice when modern medecine just wasn't the same. The people still doing it today are not doing it because it's Jewish Law, they are doing it because it's tradition. While this is part of the Jewish Law, this was not a religious ritual in any way. There is a very, very strong rule about never drinking blood. Also, a very respected Rabbi (Moshe Sofer) declared that it was not an obligatory part of the circumcision ceremony, based on the Talmud

This is a case of people hanging on traditions. Unfortunately, this is very present when it comes to Haredi and some Hassidic jews who are closer to Ultra-Orthodoxy than anything else.


/yeah, was disturbed too when I first heard it was still being done
 
2006-06-21 10:59:56 AM  
You have to realize something: this was a purely hygenic practice when modern medecine just wasn't the same.

Nonsense. Circumcision was and always has been a purely religious ritual, nothing to do with hygiene or medical benefits. Not now, not then, not ever.

Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. {he that is eight.: Heb. a son of eight days} 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

So if you want to follow some old middle eastern fairy tale, be my guest, but don't tell anyone there ever was a reason other than religion.
 
2006-06-21 11:02:45 AM  
Kar98: Nonsense. Circumcision was and always has been a purely religious ritual, nothing to do with hygiene or medical benefits. Not now, not then, not ever.

What?

Reread my post carefully. You'll realize why your reply doesn't make any sense in light of what I said.
 
2006-06-21 11:03:43 AM  
Kar98: So if you want to follow some old middle eastern fairy tale, be my guest, but don't tell anyone there ever was a reason other than religion.

Right now, somewhere Tatsuma's eyes are turning yellow as he's starting to Hulk up.
 
2006-06-21 11:05:54 AM  
Pay attention here. The entire circumcision thingee is nonsense and it doesn't matter _which_ ritual is performed, be it done by Doctor Greenspan at the maternity ward or Rebbe Shmuel Shebbes at the temple.
 
2006-06-21 11:09:13 AM  
_Dangerous_ and unhealthy nonsense, I might add.
 
2006-06-21 11:10:24 AM  
Kar98:

Oh G-d! Reread my bloody post again.

Of course a Brit Milah is religious, for fark's sake, it literally means "covenant (of the) circumcision". What you're saying is akin to this:

Me: "Well, the reason why we use a sharp scalpel washed in alcohol is to prevent infection, when we do a bris"
You: "Nonsense, you do it because it's a religious practice!1"

Again, please, reread my post. OER is right. I am currently turning into the Hulk. A very complexed, asthmatic Hulk.
 
2006-06-21 11:12:56 AM  
Kar98: _Dangerous_ and unhealthy nonsense, I might add.

Everything is black and white, yeah yeah yeah yeah
 
2006-06-21 11:19:01 AM  
No, what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter whether you use a scalpel or sharp rabbi teeth to mutilate a child, it's still wrong, disgusting and based purely on religion.

BYOHTML
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/mothers.html

http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/horror/horror.shtml
 
2006-06-21 11:22:01 AM  
Oh, and quoting WP in an argument, how lame is that?
 
2006-06-21 11:27:23 AM  
Kar98: Oh, and quoting WP in an argument, how lame is that?

Dude. You just gave me a link of anecdotal evidence of what MOTHERS have to say about circumcisions, all stacked nicely to be fiercly anti-circumcision

I gave you a link with pros and cons and links to studies so you can make up your own mind

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and all that.
 
2006-06-21 11:30:19 AM  
Duh. Of course I would only give links that are fiercely anti-circumcision. You are supposed to present your line, not me.

BYOHTML
http://www.nocirc.org/
 
2006-06-21 11:34:41 AM  
AAP Statement, March 1, 1999.
"Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child.

To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision.

It is legitimate for parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions, in addition to the medical factors, when making this decision.

Analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain associated with circumcision; therefore, if a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided. If circumcision is performed in the newborn period, it should only be done on infants who are stable and healthy".


American Academy Of Pediatrics, Information For Parents.

Canadian Pediatric Society, March 16, 1996
"The overall evidence of the benefits and harms of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns."
"When parents are making a decision about circumcision, they should be advised of the present state of medical knowledge about its benefits and harms.Their decision may ultimately be based on personal, religious or cultural factors."


But yes, instead of listening to the Canadian Pediatric Society, the American Academy of Pediatrics or known and valuable sources, let's listen to what emotional parents with no medical background whatsoever have to say about it

As I said, weak.

http://www.circinfo.net/
 
2006-06-21 11:40:20 AM  
potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.

"there could be benefits, we haven't found any, so we don't recommend it".

"The overall evidence of the benefits and harms of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns."
"When parents are making a decision about circumcision, they should be advised of the present state of medical knowledge about its benefits and harms. Their decision may ultimately be based on personal, religious or cultural factors."


"We don't recommend it on medical reasons"
"If parents decide pro circ, it's a religous decision, not a medical one"

Yes, let's listen to the Canadian Pediatric Society and the American Academy of Pediatrics. Are you confused and arguing my side here, or what, Tatsuma?
 
2006-06-21 11:51:57 AM  
You only read what you want to read. What they said can be summed up as:

"While there are pros and cons, they even out and since it's not essential to the well-being of the child, the choice should be left to the parents to decide whether or not it's what they want for their child"
 
2006-06-21 12:05:45 PM  
Tatsuma: The people still doing it today are not doing it because it's Jewish Law, they are doing it because it's tradition.

Thankyou for the explanation.
 
2006-06-21 12:30:14 PM  
I think your "summary", Tatsuma seems just a litte bit of a stretch.

One more link:
http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/shorthis.htm
 
2006-06-21 12:34:54 PM  
DammitIForgotMyLogin: Thankyou for the explanation.

It's a pleasure

Kar98:

and I don't think you're here to debate, so I won't entertain you anymore.
 
2006-06-21 12:56:38 PM  
Translation: "Kar98 won this debate fair and square, so I'm tucking tail and run away." Seeya next time.
 
2006-06-21 12:57:01 PM  
thanks, rabbi. keep the tip.


/here all week
// go with the veal.
 
2006-06-21 12:57:15 PM  
At least its not teh ghey.
 
2006-06-21 12:57:25 PM  
This sounds like some kind of cover story for a vampire virgin cult.
 
2006-06-21 12:58:01 PM  
"The decision to develop guidelines on oral-suction circumcision came after Monsey-based mohel Yitzchok Fischer - a rabbi trained in religious circumcision - was suspected of infecting three New York City babies with herpes in 2004. One died and another suffered brain damage. He was not charged in the cases."


SICK.
 
2006-06-21 12:58:05 PM  
Kar98

You called?
 
2006-06-21 12:58:06 PM  
Kar98: Translation: "Kar98 won this debate fair and square, so I'm tucking tail and run away." Seeya next time.

No, I think he means that this is not a black & white issue and refuses to argue with you as if it were.
 
2006-06-21 12:58:19 PM  
Kar98:

[image from cs.helsinki.fi too old to be available]

/Tatsuma's Jewish, he knows what he's talking about.
//Don't back up an argument with BS.
 
2006-06-21 12:58:36 PM  
I can't even RTFA.
 
2006-06-21 12:58:44 PM  
That is farkED UP!
 
2006-06-21 12:59:04 PM  
tradition or not, It's a farked practice, modern medical science has advanced far enough that rabbi's don't need to suck baby cock, and let's face it, it plain wrong
 
2006-06-21 1:00:36 PM  
Kar98: Translation: "Kar98 won this debate fair and square, so I'm tucking tail and run away." Seeya next time.

Debate? Which debate. You came here with three statements you qualified as facts and treat as gospel "G-d is a fairy tale from nomadic tribes", "The only reason for circumcision is religious" and "Circumcision is evil without anything to redeem it".

You won't even budge one inch from your position, you're not ready to see the other side and I'm not foolish enough to think that I can move a wall by talking to it.
 
2006-06-21 1:00:53 PM  
damn...picked the wrong religeon to be circumsized by
 
2006-06-21 1:01:06 PM  
Hey, a lot of prudes in here. Don't let the baby suck on nipples either because people do that during sex.
 
2006-06-21 1:01:25 PM  
Der Poopflinger: tradition or not, It's a farked practice, modern medical science has advanced far enough that rabbi's don't need to suck baby cock, and let's face it, it plain wrong

If it is part of a religious tradition then I think it is not up to the government to come in and say they can't do it. They can only step in when there are health issues, which is what they are doing in this article.
 
2006-06-21 1:01:38 PM  
 
2006-06-21 1:02:49 PM  
Gar!!!!!! That woke me up! OMG!
 
2006-06-21 1:03:05 PM  
Tatsuma and GooberMcFly FTW!
 
2006-06-21 1:03:31 PM  
religion...oops
 
2006-06-21 1:03:38 PM  
My religion demands that I kidnap children and sacrifice them upon the altar of Molech. Can I have the government ignore human rights for my religion too?
 
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