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(Some Guy)   Maine's new health care plan has saved so much money, the state has to raise everyone's taxes to help pay for it   (opinionjournal.com) divider line
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10270 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 16 Feb 2006 at 10:47 AM (17 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2006-02-16 9:33:30 AM  
Typical politics....though, if you note the article earlier about math and science education in Maine, you'll be able to see why jug-ears can get away with it--nobody can do enough math to call his bluff.
 
2006-02-16 10:50:10 AM  
Who is jug-ears and why can't that be my name?
 
2006-02-16 10:52:33 AM  
I thought Canada already had socialized healthcare
 
2006-02-16 10:54:01 AM  
Just wait until we get national Hilarycare.
 
2006-02-16 10:54:07 AM  
Yes, but I'll bet their "overhead" is still less than private sector insurance.
 
2006-02-16 10:56:08 AM  
Maine already has the highest taxes in the nation.

Afterthegoldrush: nope.
 
2006-02-16 10:56:28 AM  
Healthcare is a disaster in this country, instead of this little stop gap solutions we need a massive overhaul. Cut down on the bureaucracy and the bullshiat first.
 
2006-02-16 10:57:06 AM  
Fact One: Our helthcare system is screwed up

Fact Two: The Government is going to make it worse

thread over
 
2006-02-16 11:00:51 AM  
Opinion Journal
 
2006-02-16 11:01:19 AM  
And we have a president whose only solution is health savings accounts*.

*serves as capital for banks
 
2006-02-16 11:02:02 AM  
I dont get it. Maybe if the headline had "saved" in quotes, it might make sense by the implication that the savings was not real.
 
2006-02-16 11:06:48 AM  
Tennessee has a system modeled after hillarycare that is bankrupting the state too. Only people without jobs can get on, even if you can't get insurance at work. It's the reward for having a family of indigents.
 
2006-02-16 11:10:41 AM  
In the interests of full disclosure: The authors both work for The Heritage Foundation, a right-wing think-tank.

Incidentally, the Heritage Foundation is the institution that told Reagan that training Osama bin Laden to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan was a really, really good idea.

So I'd take their opinions with a pinch of salt, if I were you.
 
2006-02-16 11:11:01 AM  
Higher taxes doesn't mean the program isn't saving money. Hospitals that (by law) have to provide emergency care to the destitute still pass those costs on to the (paying) consumers - and thus health care companies.

So the question then becomes, do you want to pay health insurance premiums for a profit for your insurance company, preventive care for you and other customers, and emergency care for every health problem the destitute have... or do you want to pay for preventive care for everyone and no profit for the government?

Bottom line - socialized health care is less expensive for the same quality of care.

Maine's taxes may be going up, but the system will take time to swing into full effect. Eventually, Maine will be spending less per capita on health care than the rest of the country - and that, not the tax rate, is the best indicator.
 
2006-02-16 11:12:27 AM  
dstaggs

"Jug-ears" would be Baldacci. Look at the picture in the article.
 
2006-02-16 11:13:55 AM  
Tell me again why the government should be providing health care or health care insurance. Its farks up everything it can .
 
2006-02-16 11:14:32 AM  
Moops:
And we have a president whose only solution is health savings accounts*.

*serves as capital for banks


It was a Demorcrat that created this monster. Much like the National Healthcare Program Clinton pushed, and what Hilary will push if she gets into office.

As far as the Health Savings Accounts, I have something similar at work. Put money into it BEFORE taxes, use it to pay for regular medical expenses/daycare. Its a little bit of savings for me, but at least I'm paying for it, and not depending on a handout from the Gov.
 
2006-02-16 11:14:37 AM  
thegreatkillfile : You misunderstand. The Republicans don't care whether expenditure goes up. But if expenditure does go up, they want you to know that fiscal responsibility means running up a massive deficit rather than raising taxes. :)
 
2006-02-16 11:16:09 AM  
thegreatkillfile

Will the state have enough time to realize these "savings" you speak of before it goes bankrupt?

Fact is, what industries Maine had are leaving, and quickly, leaving behind populations of low-skill and unskilled laborers, who will not be able to keep any sort of gainful employment.

If you're a former paper-mill worker, and you find out you can either work at McDonald's for $6.15/hour [ Maine's minimum wage, last I checked ] with no benefits, or go on welfare, get food stamps, and health care....well, that's a bit of a no-brainer, now, isn't it? Even if you didn't graduate from high school, you should be able to figure that out.
 
2006-02-16 11:19:49 AM  
As a college-educated, middle-class male; born into a middle-class family, educated in tax-payer funded public schools, and who paid for his college using taxpayer subsidized loans all I have to say is this: Fark the poor. I am a self made man. They deserve to get sick and die because they haven't worked as hard as I have.
 
2006-02-16 11:20:51 AM  
Really, the money is going towards our steller, give non functional computers to seventh graders program. Because nothing screams buisness tech like a middle schooler with an iBook
 
2006-02-16 11:22:32 AM  
I live in maine - trying to apply for the new plan - but since i make more than 30K/year i dont qualify for the discounts - so this plan costs me - $1200/month. Individual plan with PMITA deductable=912/month...

same plan when i lived in NH (one FARKING STATE AWAY) 350/month

go maine
 
2006-02-16 11:23:47 AM  
Ha ha ha. Maine must be doing something right!!!! The author of that op-ed is an insurance company lobbyist.

Mr. Brackemyre is the assistant director of legislative affairs for the Council for Affordable Health Insurance (that's Orwell speak of course).

From the Council for Affordable Health Insurance website ...
"The Council for Affordable Health Insurance (CAHI) is a research and advocacy association of insurance carriers active in the individual, small group, HSA and senior markets. CAHI's membership includes insurance companies, small businesses, providers, nonprofit associations, actuaries, insurance brokers and individuals."
 
2006-02-16 11:25:19 AM  
Tell me again why the government should be providing health care or health care insurance.
I dunno. Something about "promoting the general welfare". Can't remember where I read it.
 
2006-02-16 11:26:07 AM  
How the hell can the government restrict which costs can be passed on to customers and which cannot without complete pricing control? It can be achieved via a Public Utility Commission type arrangement where all pricing has to be approved and presumably justified. But it sounds like the state legislature wants to just forbid passing on this one tax.

I guess the only real effect that could have is preventing companies from identifying government taxes specifically as the source of any of their costs or price increases. I think some countries with high sales taxes do that, by requiring all retail pricing to include VAT. If the VAT were a line item apparent to consumers, it could be perceived as excessive.
 
2006-02-16 11:29:25 AM  
marcjenr: I live in maine - trying to apply for the new plan - but since i make more than 30K/year i dont qualify for the discounts - so this plan costs me - $1200/month. Individual plan with PMITA deductable=912/month...

same plan when i lived in NH (one FARKING STATE AWAY) 350/month

go maine



yeah, I was reading about that recently (I live in NH) - I wouldn't call this plan that Maine has socialized health care; it's more like monoploized health care.

/The only game in town gets to set its own ticket price.
 
2006-02-16 11:34:10 AM  
Old private system: Person pay $2000 out of their pocket to private insurance company.

New public system: Person pays $1000 out of their pocket for government insurance, and then government raises taxes costing person $70 more.

Sounds good to me.
 
2006-02-16 11:34:52 AM  
FTA:"A better alternative for uninsured individuals in Maine is Health Savings Accounts, a tax-deductible personal fund coupled with a high-deductible health-insurance policy."

Because tax-deductible funds are always the answer for people without money.
 
2006-02-16 11:36:16 AM  
thegreatkillfile

Bottom line - socialized health care is less expensive for the same quality of care.

Please illuminate us on how artificially capping what an industry can charge for its product or service maintains the same quality level for all? FTA, Maine forced its medical providers to cap their rate of cost increase at 3%, yet the state's medical program is still losing money, meaning that they will likely press for more reductions in growth while demanding the same high level of treatment available to privately insured individuals who will pay more.

Eventually, if you force the medical providers to charge not what the market will bear for new and improved services but what the state says they can charge, health care quality will plummet. New and better services will not be seen as cost-effective by the primary caregivers, and the level of qualification of the primary caregiver will decrease as the best-qualified and educated people, in their own self-interest, will leave that field for one where they can make a better living. This only leaves people who do the minimum job needed to get by or the people who do it not for the money but because it's a "calling" for them. Witness the state of public education, where districts who supplement teacher salaries provided by the state with their own incentives tend to have higher educational acheivement in their students. Districts that don't supplement tend to have more of the teachers who are sort of marking time through the day and not attempting to do more than the minimum. The balance between good and bad teachers becomes disproportionate when the good teachers who are motivated to help children move on to districts that pay better, leaving the less-motivated teachers behind and turning out substandard students.
 
2006-02-16 11:38:34 AM  
gwowen

I'm no fan of these people or their arguments but I'm pretty sure that nobody at the federal level supported Osama Bin Laden specifically. In the 70's and 80's he was just another mujahedeen, and not particularly well known.
 
2006-02-16 11:43:40 AM  
Reason #469 that I'm glad I left that state.
Reason #37 that I wished I stayed: 3 bedroom ranch on 2 acres w/full finished basement, $123,000.

I think there is a correlation there somewhere.
 
2006-02-16 11:45:28 AM  
mcostas: The author's industry would no doubt stand to profit more if Maine did away with socialized healthcare.

But if privatization results in cheaper healthcare for Maine's citizens (see marcjenr's post above), what's wrong with that?

Government intervention rarely, if ever, makes things cheaper or more efficient.
 
2006-02-16 11:45:45 AM  
"As a college-educated, middle-class male; born into a middle-class family, educated in tax-payer funded public schools, and who paid for his college using taxpayer subsidized loans all I have to say is this: Fark the poor. I am a self made man. They deserve to get sick and die because they haven't worked as hard as I have."

The sarcasm is dripping, but there is a hidden point here. The "poor" in america have all that gov. subsidized stuff, and then some, and they are still "poor". I wonder why.

"I dunno. Something about "promoting the general welfare". Can't remember where I read it."

I guess "promoting the general welfare" is supposed to mean "providing for...", according to some people. Some people need lessons in semantics.
 
2006-02-16 11:50:13 AM  
The trouble with a private health care system is that private health care providers have very real incentives to fark you over that simply don't exist in a government-run plan.


Given the choice between the inefficiency of government vs. the inefficiency and profit motive of massive private health care providers, I think I'd prefer the former.


Remember, folks, the primary responsibility of a corporation is to make money for their investors. When faced a situation where they need to choose between meeting the expectations of their investors or providing better care for their customers, the investors will always come first. It isn't always the case that they need to choose, but you can be damn certain that when given the choice, the needs of the customer never come before the needs of the investor.

 
2006-02-16 11:50:19 AM  
AfterTheGoldRush: Yes, but I'll bet their "overhead" is still less than private sector insurance.


You've never worked for the government have you.
 
2006-02-16 11:52:32 AM  
The same thing happened to the water utilty, people used a lot less water in response to requests to conserve, so they are requesting a big rate increase.

So we conserve but it costs us more to use less.
 
2006-02-16 11:53:01 AM  
1. Funnel billions through a massive government bureaucracy run by lawyers.

2. ????

3. Free health care!
 
2006-02-16 11:53:04 AM  
mcostas
if you only make 40k/year and still have to spend more than 25% of you income on health insurance is it really worth the statewide tax increase?
 
2006-02-16 11:53:50 AM  
The sarcasm is dripping, but there is a hidden point here. The "poor" in america have all that gov. subsidized stuff, and then some, and they are still "poor". I wonder why.

Because being born into poverty presents several significant barriers to achievement when compared to being born into the middle-class?
 
2006-02-16 11:54:43 AM  
The Homer Tax: Because being born into poverty presents several significant barriers to achievement when compared to being born into the middle-class?

So they're all victims and too stupid to better themselves?
 
2006-02-16 11:56:11 AM  
Do a little math here and..

Wow, $213 per month for full coverage health insurance?!! Where do I sign up?
 
2006-02-16 11:58:35 AM  
So they're all victims and too stupid to better themselves?

Yes, that is excatly what I said.

Come on, I was born a white, middle-class, male. Pretending that I don't have it better from the get-go is intellectually dishonest. That said, I wasn't being sarcastic in my Weeners -- Fark the poor, Fark the minorities, and Fark the Women.

Sucks for them that they weren't born into an advantageous position. I am where I am in life because of a combination of the work that I have done combined with my advantageous birth status. I'm not going to sit here and cry about people less fortunate than me, but I'm also not going to pretend that I didn't have a hell of a lot easier time.
 
2006-02-16 11:59:16 AM  
First off, I'll go on the reccord by saying that I live in Maine. Note that I say that with so much "pride" that I debated leaving a Paypal tip-jar link right after it.

I've paid for four years of college on my own (pre-med) and my family was once surviving on food stamps (four kids, and frag-all for a job market in downeast Maine). I'm all for telling people to go to hell when they want something for nothing. I knew an 18-year-old in Lewiston, ME, who was allready on Social Security and everything else. I wanted to kick him in the balls hard enough to sterilize him.

It should be noted, though, that there is practically no job market further into the state than Bangor. Right now one of the leading professions is CNA because the only people staying in the state are the enderly and aging baby-boomers with thier highschool students. At the current rate most of the state is going to be taken up my nursing homes and people to care for them.

Short version: NO ONE UNDER THE AGE OF 35 WANTS TO STAY HERE, and anyone with better than a GED will have better luck taking thier chances outside of the state, because Maine is a dead end for anything above service-industry jobs.

That's why our health care is farked. Maine is taken up by old people that can't pay for thier own medication, and there's no system capable of handling that. The current "fix" is to charge massive rates to anyone that dosn't qualify for free health care, and as marcjenr pointed out that tactic is working a LOT worse than you might think.
 
2006-02-16 12:01:27 PM  
Major Thomb: So they're all victims and too stupid to better themselves?


Take Mitt Romney's recent proposal for mandatory health care coverage (yes, different state, I know, but the principle is here) -- if legislation passes that individuals, with no corporate backing (per Mitt) are required by law to have health insurance if they can afford it, then what does that mean to that family. If they have an extra $200 per month, then the gov't will say "Hey - you can afford that" and that money will go towards the mandatory health care, versus investing, maybe getting their kid into a better school, etc.

To a millionaire like Mitt (and the vast majority of congress), a couple of hundred bucks is a drop in a bucket - but to a family that is hovering just above or just below the poverty line, it means just a tad bit more.

/now if that family decides its more important to get some new $200 sneakers for jr., then that's another story
//but not all familes are like that, no matter how many you swear you see at the mall
 
2006-02-16 12:04:47 PM  
the_poison_elf

You poor bastard....and yeah, there's not much of a job market in Bangor, either...which is one of the reasons I'm in California right now.
 
2006-02-16 12:10:15 PM  
Major Thomb

1. Funnel billions through a massive government bureaucracy run by lawyers.

2. ????


3. Free health care!



Indeed. We should stick with what we have:

1. Pay thousands of dollars a year to a massive corporation

2. ????

3. "Sorry, your insurance doesn't cover that. That'll be $25,000!"

/ 4. Get poor reeeeeal fast

 
2006-02-16 12:11:09 PM  
the_poison_elf
NO ONE UNDER THE AGE OF 35 WANTS TO STAY HERE,
Except for my wife.
 
2006-02-16 12:12:55 PM  
Bottom line - socialized health care is less expensive for the same quality of care

Bottom line - this is a bunch of B.S. as shown in every experiment in socialized medicine anywhere, ever.
 
2006-02-16 12:15:51 PM  
[image from opinionjournal.com too old to be available]

BALDucci, eh?

/obvious
 
2006-02-16 12:20:46 PM  
Okay, where is the strongbad image of the Wall-Street-Journal look alike line-drawing of strongbad? ...ya know what I'm talkin about?
 
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