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(Slate)   If the Supreme Court strikes down race-based affirmative action, institutions could replace it with preferential admissions based on economic disadv . . . hey, stop laughing, this is serious   (slate.com) divider line
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    More: Unlikely, Racism, United States, Wealth, High school, Education, Household, Discrimination, Economics  
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1121 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Feb 2023 at 6:42 AM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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Ragin' Asian [TotalFark]
2023-02-09 6:45:07 AM  
Okay. Let's go with cash and property ownership reparations, then. Does that sound good?
 
padraig
2023-02-09 6:46:18 AM  
It's funny of conservatives have become okay with legislating from the bench lately.

I sometimes wonder if the key to the USA's salvation would be something as radical as switching from common to law to civil law, something I think has never happened
 
TheMarvelousLibertarian
2023-02-09 6:49:38 AM  
Racism isn't cool even for college admissions.
 
ditka80
2023-02-09 6:51:02 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
PartTimeBuddha [OhFark]
2023-02-09 6:52:42 AM  
serfin' usa
 
qorkfiend
2023-02-09 6:54:14 AM  

Ragin' Asian: Okay. Let's go with cash and property ownership reparations, then. Does that sound good?


Unlikely
 
JimmyTheHutt
2023-02-09 7:01:25 AM  

TheMarvelousLibertarian: Racism isn't cool even for college admissions.


And yet, here you are, hoping that SCOTUS allows excluding Black people from Ivy League schools.
 
wademh
2023-02-09 7:03:01 AM  

TheMarvelousLibertarian: Racism isn't cool even for college admissions.


Affirmative action is like looking at those in line and saying

"there's something wrong with this line, the front of the line is dominated by this ethnic group and the back is dominated by that ethnic group, so let's not just let people in by the order they appear in line because that would be unfair to some ethnic groups."

The modern argument against affirmative action says

"hey, we shouldn't be choosing the other people get in to the party by ethnicity, just let them in by the order they are in line.  Oh, and ignore all the things we are doing to bias where people line up before you ever look at the line."
 
wademh
2023-02-09 7:04:36 AM  
wademh:
s/other/order
 
qorkfiend
2023-02-09 7:04:59 AM  

TheMarvelousLibertarian: Racism isn't cool even for college admissions.


Yes, that's why programs like affirmative action are necessary. There are lots of college admissions offices who are simply not trustworthy.
 
The Homer Tax
2023-02-09 7:10:39 AM  
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
 
grchunt [OhFark]
2023-02-09 7:13:47 AM  
I've spent the last few years working to help students (lots of the 1st generation Americans and/or first in their family to go to college) get to and through university, mostly in the US.  Everything I hear is that most institutions will use economic circumstances instead of race once the SCOTUS puts the last nail into AA's coffin. The colleges aren't just going to surrender the fight.
 
skin rash_oklahoma
2023-02-09 7:14:27 AM  
Opponents of Affirmative Action frequently bemoan the idea of a selection that "takes away the opportunity of a more deserving applicant ".  And in their heads, the more deserving candidates are always white and male.
 
The Homer Tax
2023-02-09 7:25:00 AM  

skin rash_oklahoma: Opponents of Affirmative Action frequently bemoan the idea of a selection that "takes away the opportunity of a more deserving applicant ".  And in their heads, the more deserving candidates are always white and male.


Man, I hate non-academic reasons that colleges use to accept students potentially taking a spot from a "more deserving" applicant. But enough about Legacy Admissions...
 
odinsposse
2023-02-09 7:31:28 AM  

skin rash_oklahoma: Opponents of Affirmative Action frequently bemoan the idea of a selection that "takes away the opportunity of a more deserving applicant ".  And in their heads, the more deserving candidates are always white and male.


They really feel weirdly comfortable saying "I think non-white applicants are automatically unqualified" if they can add "because of affirmative action. That's the reason I keep saying that."
 
harleyquinnical
2023-02-09 7:32:55 AM  
The phrase "more deserving applicant" is seriously giving me an eye twitch, what with it being used to justify institutional racism at the university level while banning adolescent trans girls from playing sports at the high school level.

I guess haters really are going to hate 🫤
 
AurizenDarkstar
2023-02-09 7:34:33 AM  

odinsposse: skin rash_oklahoma: Opponents of Affirmative Action frequently bemoan the idea of a selection that "takes away the opportunity of a more deserving applicant ".  And in their heads, the more deserving candidates are always white and male.

They really feel weirdly comfortable saying "I think non-white applicants are automatically unqualified" if they can add "because of affirmative action. That's the reason I keep saying that."


But they're hoping that the SCOTUS strikes down affirmative action so that they don't have to couch it in weasel words anymore

These motherfu*kers just want to be as blatantly bigoted and racist as possible.
 
winedrinkingman
2023-02-09 7:35:48 AM  
If we switched to a system where we looked at economic disadvantage, that might actually hurt the GOP in the long run.  Affirmative action has been a huge boon in helping African Americans escape poverty.  It has not been entirely successful, but it has had some major successes.  

If however, you look at the GOP demographics, and where they come from, you see a lot of poor rural white communities, whose kids are not getting a chance to go to college, because their white GOP controlled states hate poor people as much as they hate brown people.  You start getting those kids to go off to college, and all of a sudden the Republicans lose an entire generation of future voters.
 
BMFPitt
2023-02-09 7:39:29 AM  

skin rash_oklahoma: Opponents of Affirmative Action frequently bemoan the idea of a selection that "takes away the opportunity of a more deserving applicant ".  And in their heads, the more deserving candidates are always white and male.


So you've never talked to the parent of an Asian kid, huh?
 
Lexx
2023-02-09 7:40:54 AM  

winedrinkingman: If we switched to a system where we looked at economic disadvantage, that might actually hurt the GOP in the long run.  Affirmative action has been a huge boon in helping African Americans escape poverty.  It has not been entirely successful, but it has had some major successes.  

If however, you look at the GOP demographics, and where they come from, you see a lot of poor rural white communities, whose kids are not getting a chance to go to college, because their white GOP controlled states hate poor people as much as they hate brown people.  You start getting those kids to go off to college, and all of a sudden the Republicans lose an entire generation of future voters.


Not really.  I remember the analysis showing Trump voters trended whiter but richer than average.

You can be racist because of tribal hate.  You can an also be racist because of desperation.

You can also be racist because you are fully aware of the advantages in life you were awarded by an unfair world, and you don't want to give up those advantages by levelling the playing field.
 
AurizenDarkstar
2023-02-09 7:42:27 AM  

winedrinkingman: If however, you look at the GOP demographics, and where they come from, you see a lot of poor rural white communities, whose kids are not getting a chance to go to college, because their white GOP controlled states hate poor people as much as they hate brown people. You start getting those kids to go off to college, and all of a sudden the Republicans lose an entire generation of future voters.


Which is why people like DeSantis are doing everything they can to make universities into literal propaganda mills that favor the right wing, instead of being places of actual learning.  Then they hook them with their propaganda and keep them voting Republican forever.
 
Dafatone
2023-02-09 7:43:12 AM  

BMFPitt: skin rash_oklahoma: Opponents of Affirmative Action frequently bemoan the idea of a selection that "takes away the opportunity of a more deserving applicant ".  And in their heads, the more deserving candidates are always white and male.

So you've never talked to the parent of an Asian kid, huh?


I'm in favor of affirmative action in college admissions, and you have a point.

I'm all for dunking on mediocre rich white legacy kids, but the current system does result in Asian students ofte being evaluated on a harsh curve.

I'm not sure what the answer to that is other than admitting fewer mediocre legacies, but that only goes so far.
 
BMFPitt
2023-02-09 7:47:57 AM  

Lexx: Not really.  I remember the analysis showing Trump voters trended whiter but richer than average.


Income used to correlate very tightly with education, but in 2016 and 2020 educated people broke hard against Trump relative to income.
 
BMFPitt
2023-02-09 7:52:22 AM  

Dafatone: I'm in favor of affirmative action in college admissions, and you have a point.

I'm all for dunking on mediocre rich white legacy kids, but the current system does result in Asian students ofte being evaluated on a harsh curve.

I'm not sure what the answer to that is other than admitting fewer mediocre legacies, but that only goes so far.


That's kind of like the "defund the NEA to balance the budget" of college admissions.  Obviously they shouldn't be a thing, but that's a drop in the bucket.
 
Dafatone
2023-02-09 7:58:25 AM  

BMFPitt: Dafatone: I'm in favor of affirmative action in college admissions, and you have a point.

I'm all for dunking on mediocre rich white legacy kids, but the current system does result in Asian students ofte being evaluated on a harsh curve.

I'm not sure what the answer to that is other than admitting fewer mediocre legacies, but that only goes so far.

That's kind of like the "defund the NEA to balance the budget" of college admissions.  Obviously they shouldn't be a thing, but that's a drop in the bucket.


Yeah. Like I said, I don't know what the answer is. I don't think fewer other minority students is a good thing, but I also recognize that there are many high-achieving Asian students who are held back by their race.

I do think there's too much emphasis on Ivies and the best schools on this issue. Educational access for all is important, and I'm more concerned with students who are kept out of good/decent schools by systemic racism than I am top students who have to go to Penn instead of Harvard.

But that doesn't answer anything.
 
houginator
2023-02-09 7:59:02 AM  
In some stDafatone: BMFPitt: skin rash_oklahoma: Opponents of Affirmative Action frequently bemoan the idea of a selection that "takes away the opportunity of a more deserving applicant ".  And in their heads, the more deserving candidates are always white and male.

So you've never talked to the parent of an Asian kid, huh?

I'm in favor of affirmative action in college admissions, and you have a point.

I'm all for dunking on mediocre rich white legacy kids, but the current system does result in Asian students ofte being evaluated on a harsh curve.

I'm not sure what the answer to that is other than admitting fewer mediocre legacies, but that only goes so far.

In some states that have already banned affirmative action, they have adopted something like a top 10% admission process from each high school to the state college system.  It achieves a somewhat similar outcome, since many schools tend to be in neighborhoods with a dominant ethnicity.  But perhaps more importantly, its getting kids from poorer neighborhoods into college alongside those from richer neighborhoods, instead of the current system, which mostly just grabs kids from each major ethnicity from the richest neighborhoods.
 
RasIanI
2023-02-09 8:01:21 AM  

grchunt: I've spent the last few years working to help students (lots of the 1st generation Americans and/or first in their family to go to college) get to and through university, mostly in the US.  Everything I hear is that most institutions will use economic circumstances instead of race once the SCOTUS puts the last nail into AA's coffin. The colleges aren't just going to surrender the fight.


The article does a good job of noting how UCLA Law School has already been in the post-AA environment since the early 1990s, and about how they have a working template for how the rest of American academic institutions can move forward.
 
GhostOfSavageHenry
2023-02-09 8:02:08 AM  
You think this court that's trying to bring back a regressive gilded age would allow that?
 
The Homer Tax
2023-02-09 8:07:50 AM  

BMFPitt: That's kind of like the "defund the NEA to balance the budget" of college admissions.  Obviously they shouldn't be a thing, but that's a drop in the bucket.


Compared to what, specifically?
 
BMFPitt
2023-02-09 8:08:00 AM  

Dafatone: Yeah. Like I said, I don't know what the answer is. I don't think fewer other minority students is a good thing, but I also recognize that there are many high-achieving Asian students who are held back by their race.

I do think there's too much emphasis on Ivies and the best schools on this issue. Educational access for all is important, and I'm more concerned with students who are kept out of good/decent schools by systemic racism than I am top students who have to go to Penn instead of Harvard.

But that doesn't answer anything.


If you think the playing field isn't level, level the field, don't try to adjust the score at halftime.

// CSB: I played more than one intramural sport in college on a literal uneven playing field.
 
BMFPitt
2023-02-09 8:09:35 AM  

The Homer Tax: Compared to what, specifically?


The other 99.9% of admissions.
 
Great_Milenko
2023-02-09 8:10:47 AM  

Ragin' Asian: Okay. Let's go with cash and property ownership reparations, then. Does that sound good?


Cancel every mortgage under $150,000?  Sounds like a plan!
 
The Homer Tax
2023-02-09 8:12:03 AM  

BMFPitt: The other 99.9% of admissions.


You think that legacy admissions only account for .1%? What's your source for that?

Compared to that .1%, what are you suggesting are the percentage of race-based affirmative action admissions, and what's your source for that?
 
Dafatone
2023-02-09 8:21:56 AM  

The Homer Tax: BMFPitt: The other 99.9% of admissions.

You think that legacy admissions only account for .1%? What's your source for that?

Compared to that .1%, what are you suggesting are the percentage of race-based affirmative action admissions, and what's your source for that?


It doesn't really matter because by and large, those legacies are already getting in under the current system.
 
qorkfiend
2023-02-09 8:28:28 AM  

BMFPitt: The Homer Tax: Compared to what, specifically?

The other 99.9% of admissions.


Legacy admissions are more like 15-20%
 
The Homer Tax
2023-02-09 8:31:20 AM  

Dafatone: It doesn't really matter because by and large, those legacies are already getting in under the current system.


Are you suggesting that the legacies would all be getting in if they weren't members of a non-achievement related preferred admission group? According to whom, specifically?
 
IndyJohn [TotalFark]
2023-02-09 8:35:56 AM  
If this is the way it shakes out then not much will change.  Racial minorities in the US are disproportionately economically disadvantaged. Factoring economic circumstances into admissions will disproportionately favor racial minorities even though the policy itself would be race-neutral.
 
BMFPitt
2023-02-09 8:37:23 AM  

qorkfiend: Legacy admissions are more like 15-20%


Maybe at Harvard.  And ignoring the question of how many would have gotten in anyway.

But at the macro level, it's mostly irrelevant.
 
Jairzinho
2023-02-09 8:40:16 AM  

TheMarvelousLibertarian: Racism isn't cool even for college admissions.


what a stu.. *looks*
Username checks out.
 
VictoryCabal
2023-02-09 8:41:38 AM  
Whenever you hear someone say that their crotch goblin didn't get into school X because of Affirmative Action, remind yourself about handicap parking spots.

Have you ever had an experience where you put off your Christmas shopping until the very last moment and then head to the mall to find the parking lot absolutely full?  You park down the road and across the street and then schlep your procrastinating ass towards the door, where you pass a bunch of empty handicap parking spots right by the entrance, and you think to yourself if it wasn't for those damn handicap people, I would got a spot right by the door?

But would you have? Of course not. If they weren't reserved, those are the spots that would have filled up first, and by the time your dumb ass got to the mall, the lot would still be full and you'd have nowhere to park.

The fact that we reserve some parking spots for people who might have some trouble walking or whatever isn't what keeps you from finding a spot. If they hadn't been reserved, you wouldn't have got them anyway.

The same with college admissions. Schools use lots of criteria for admissions.  And the fact that a minority kid from an underfunded high school got a spot under one admissions factor isn't the reason you couldn't get one under another admissions factor.
 
IndyJohn [TotalFark]
2023-02-09 8:41:50 AM  

RasIanI: grchunt: I've spent the last few years working to help students (lots of the 1st generation Americans and/or first in their family to go to college) get to and through university, mostly in the US.  Everything I hear is that most institutions will use economic circumstances instead of race once the SCOTUS puts the last nail into AA's coffin. The colleges aren't just going to surrender the fight.

The article does a good job of noting how UCLA Law School has already been in the post-AA environment since the early 1990s, and about how they have a working template for how the rest of American academic institutions can move forward.


The entire UC system has been under an affirmative action ban since 1995.  When it first went into effect, Latino admissions took a big hit, African American percentages also dropped but not as much. Both have recovered. Racial breakdown today looks very similar to when affirmative action was still in effect.
 
The Homer Tax
2023-02-09 8:42:40 AM  

BMFPitt: Maybe at Harvard.  And ignoring the question of how many would have gotten in anyway.


It's actually way higher than that at Harvard, and studies have found that your statement "most would have gotten in anyway" is incorrect.

But at the macro level, it's mostly irrelevant.

You have yet to actually support this statement, you just keep stating it as if it's correct.
 
Glockenspiel Hero [OhFark]
2023-02-09 8:44:05 AM  
We really ought to deal with the folks who take the most advantage of affirmative action- men

Men, bluntly, are flat out inferior students.  They get in with lower test scores, worse grades, perform worse at college and have more disciplinary problems.   If the college I work for didn't put the finger on the scale and let unqualified men in, we'd be 70%+ female on merit.

But women don't want to come to a school with a severe sex bias (I used to work at a women's college, which isn't anymore), so we bump women down a few notches to make room for less qualified men.

I encourage all the anti-affirmative action folks out there to deal with the real menace and let women take over.
 
BMFPitt
2023-02-09 8:54:33 AM  

The Homer Tax: It's actually way higher than that at Harvard, and studies have found that your statement "most would have gotten in anyway" is incorrect.


I excitedly await your citation for legacy preference being more than a rounding error.  That would be great news to find out that there's such abundant low hanging fruit that we can get rid of.
 
BMFPitt
2023-02-09 8:56:06 AM  

Glockenspiel Hero: I encourage all the anti-affirmative action folks out there to deal with the real menace and let women take over.


Did I stutter?
 
Dafatone
2023-02-09 9:07:14 AM  

The Homer Tax: Dafatone: It doesn't really matter because by and large, those legacies are already getting in under the current system.

Are you suggesting that the legacies would all be getting in if they weren't members of a non-achievement related preferred admission group? According to whom, specifically?


No, something different. The set of legacies who currently do not get in but would get in if affirmative action ended is small. Because legacies already get in.

It's easy to dunk on legacies as the people who would benefit from a ban, but they already get in. The actual beneficiaries would be, for the most part, a bunch of rich but not that high-achieving white kids and a lot of high-achieving Asian kids.
 
RasIanI
2023-02-09 9:08:23 AM  

Glockenspiel Hero: We really ought to deal with the folks who take the most advantage of affirmative action- men

Men, bluntly, are flat out inferior students.  They get in with lower test scores, worse grades, perform worse at college and have more disciplinary problems.   If the college I work for didn't put the finger on the scale and let unqualified men in, we'd be 70%+ female on merit.

But women don't want to come to a school with a severe sex bias (I used to work at a women's college, which isn't anymore), so we bump women down a few notches to make room for less qualified men.

I encourage all the anti-affirmative action folks out there to deal with the real menace and let women take over.


"I encourage all the anti-affirmative action folks out there to deal with the real menace and let women take over."

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
TheMysteriousStranger
2023-02-09 9:11:06 AM  
I sort of like idea of doing it, at least in part, on the basis of economic station anyways. Admitting a few upper class blacks while ignoring most black kids in the ghetto is certainly a thing.

/Get rid of legacy admissions as it is mostly affirmative action for rich white kids.
 
The Homer Tax
2023-02-09 9:11:30 AM  

BMFPitt: I excitedly await your citation for legacy preference being more than a rounding error.  That would be great news to find out that there's such abundant low hanging fruit that we can get rid of.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-harvard-finds-43-percent-white-students-are-legacy-athletes-n1060361

The study also found that roughly 75 percent of the white students admitted from those four categories, labeled 'ALDCs' in the study, "would have been rejected if they had been treated as white non-ALDCs," the study said.

Your turn!

(PS - I have no interest in continuing this discussion until you provide a citation supporting your statements in kind. I'm not interested in debating the merits of my citation while you don't feel obligated to support your position with citations that could be analyzed or criticized. Thanks in advance!)
 
houginator
2023-02-09 9:13:02 AM  

The Homer Tax: BMFPitt: The other 99.9% of admissions.

You think that legacy admissions only account for .1%? What's your source for that?

Compared to that .1%, what are you suggesting are the percentage of race-based affirmative action admissions, and what's your source for that?


This article has a good example of UC Berkeley admission before and after CA banned race based affirmative action.   Law went into effect in 96, but they seem to have started implementing the policy to some extent in 95.  Interestingly, it seems like affirmative action in CA benefited white people more than anyone else.  In 1990, white people made up about 43% of the student body, but by 2000 they were down to only 30%.   African Americans made up 15% of the student body in 1990, and by 2000 they were down to 10%, and Hispanic students also experienced a minor decline. Most of those seats went to Asian Americans, who in 1990 made up only about 30% of the student body, but by 2000 were around 40%.

So from that, you can extrapolate that around 20% or so of the student body benefited from affirmative action.  Of course, that's not taking into account any demographic changes in the students applying during that time.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/5/26/post-sffa-harvard-commencement/
 
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