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(Some aviation guy)   Why the Austin airport situation was so dangerous. And it wasn't because of the food court burritos   (fallows.substack.com) divider line
39
    More: Scary, Boeing, Airport, Landing, Flight, Airliner, Takeoff, Atmosphere of Earth, Airplane  
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1832 clicks; posted to STEM » on 08 Feb 2023 at 7:55 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



39 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
SirDigbyChickenCaesar
2023-02-08 8:36:41 AM  
was there someone discounting the danger of landing a plane on another plane?
 
Flowery Twats
2023-02-08 8:40:14 AM  
Yeah, that was scary. I get that to keep things moving, it's a bit of a ballet, but the delay in Southwest's roll kind of screwed everything up. Controller didn't seem like he was on top of the situation.
 
Incog_Neeto
2023-02-08 9:06:33 AM  
Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.
 
WelldeadLink
2023-02-08 9:32:47 AM  
Maybe because two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time?
It's just a wild guess, it's not like I'm educated in dangerousness.
 
Tyrone Slothrop [TotalFark]
2023-02-08 10:12:42 AM  

WelldeadLink: Maybe because two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time?
It's just a wild guess, it's not like I'm educated in dangerousness.


How to say "I know nothing about quantum systems" without saying it.
 
Tyrone Slothrop [TotalFark]
2023-02-08 10:14:53 AM  

Incog_Neeto: Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.


Even then, the fix will just be a band-aid, since actually modernizing the system is "too expensive" (aka cuts into CEO and shareholder profits).
 
flood222
2023-02-08 10:17:19 AM  
Since there was no incident, there is no problem
 
ColleenSezWhuut
2023-02-08 10:22:05 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Incog_Neeto: Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.

Even then, the fix will just be a band-aid, since actually modernizing the system is "too expensive" (aka cuts into CEO and shareholder profits).


CEO and shareholder profits for air traffic control run by the FAA?  This was ATC's screwup.
 
uberalice
2023-02-08 10:22:41 AM  
Nothing will change. As it is said, Airline regulations are written in blood.
 
drewogatory
2023-02-08 10:26:56 AM  

ColleenSezWhuut: Tyrone Slothrop: Incog_Neeto: Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.

Even then, the fix will just be a band-aid, since actually modernizing the system is "too expensive" (aka cuts into CEO and shareholder profits).

CEO and shareholder profits for air traffic control run by the FAA?  This was ATC's screwup.


Well, and Southwest farking around on their roll.
 
WoodyHayes [OhFark]
2023-02-08 10:28:26 AM  
These pussies don't know what stress is without playing Airport Madness like me, I'm an expert on this stuff.
 
iamskibibitz
2023-02-08 10:30:09 AM  
Not that it would have changed things here but Austin really should be Class B airspace.
 
elaw [BareFark]
2023-02-08 10:36:07 AM  

drewogatory: ColleenSezWhuut: Tyrone Slothrop: Incog_Neeto: Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.

Even then, the fix will just be a band-aid, since actually modernizing the system is "too expensive" (aka cuts into CEO and shareholder profits).

CEO and shareholder profits for air traffic control run by the FAA?  This was ATC's screwup.

Well, and Southwest farking around on their roll.


I'd put half of the blame on ATC for issuing an impractical/unsafe clearance, and the other half on Southwest for accepting the clearance (and acting on it... they could have just held until the Fedex landed, then took off).
 
drewogatory
2023-02-08 10:39:18 AM  

elaw: drewogatory: ColleenSezWhuut: Tyrone Slothrop: Incog_Neeto: Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.

Even then, the fix will just be a band-aid, since actually modernizing the system is "too expensive" (aka cuts into CEO and shareholder profits).

CEO and shareholder profits for air traffic control run by the FAA?  This was ATC's screwup.

Well, and Southwest farking around on their roll.

I'd put half of the blame on ATC for issuing an impractical/unsafe clearance, and the other half on Southwest for accepting the clearance (and acting on it... they could have just held until the Fedex landed, then took off).


I learned to fly out of Oakland, so I was always between 2 heavies it seemed. Pretty much first thing I learned was when you're cleared go right farking now. If they weren't ready they shouldn't have called holding short.
 
WelldeadLink
2023-02-08 10:42:23 AM  

Flowery Twats: Yeah, that was scary. I get that to keep things moving, it's a bit of a ballet, but the delay in Southwest's roll kind of screwed everything up. Controller didn't seem like he was on top of the situation.


I don't think that Southwest had a delay, and often a departing plane spends much longer preparing to roll. The tower knew the landing plane was only 3-4 miles away when they put the Southwest plane in danger.
 
jso2897
2023-02-08 10:56:18 AM  
"The world's media were riveted through the weekend by the blundering Chinese spy balloon. What's happening closer to the ground needs much more attention."

It always amuses me when an intelligent person cries out in the wilderness of human stupidity.
 
edmo [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-08 11:15:04 AM  
Why not add the familiar terms "cleared for immediate takeoff" or "cleared for takeoff, no delay"?

Those are not approved phrases and controllers have gotten into a bad habit of using them.

I have flown into many an airport, cleared to land, as another aircraft is rolling down the runway. You anticipate going around because if that plane is not airborne when you cross the threshold, the controller will send you around. Basically, as long as only one plane is touching the concrete, it's all cool. This goes on every day at busy airports when the weather is Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC), meaning the pilots can see for miles.

But if you get in the habit of pushing the envelope on runway crowding and then forget it's a really crappy weather day, it will bite you.

Sounds like the FEDEX crew was paying close attention to what was going on, as is almost always the case. They sound good until they tell SWA to abort. You don't tell other guys how to fly.

Southwest lollygagging IS highly unsual for them. They are usually tearing around, scrubbing tires in turns, and generally driving like hormoned-out teenagers in a hurry because they can.
 
Arkanaut
2023-02-08 11:26:37 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: WelldeadLink: Maybe because two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time?
It's just a wild guess, it's not like I'm educated in dangerousness.

How to say "I know nothing about quantum systems" without saying it.


Unfortunately, aircraft are primarily made up of protons and neutrons, which have spin 1/2.
 
Therion [TotalFark]
2023-02-08 11:26:46 AM  

Flowery Twats: Controller didn't seem like he was on top of the situation.


This is still Ronald Reagan's fault.
 
chitownmike
2023-02-08 12:04:56 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Incog_Neeto: Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.

Even then, the fix will just be a band-aid, since actually modernizing the system is "too expensive" (aka cuts into CEO and shareholder profits).


FAA shareholders and CEOs?
 
New Farkin User Name
2023-02-08 12:16:09 PM  

Arkanaut: Tyrone Slothrop: WelldeadLink: Maybe because two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time?
It's just a wild guess, it's not like I'm educated in dangerousness.

How to say "I know nothing about quantum systems" without saying it.

Unfortunately, aircraft are primarily made up of protons and neutrons, which have spin 1/2.


which can make atoms that are bosonic!
 
Be polite walk on the right
2023-02-08 12:31:38 PM  
The White Zone is for loading and unloading of passengers; there is NO STOPPING in the RED ZONE
 
Markoff_Cheney [recently expired TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-08 1:12:29 PM  
I just texted my cousin this very question to get his response, he is ATC out of Iowa desperately trying to get back to Colorado to any airport that will take him.
 
Caelistis
2023-02-08 1:14:51 PM  

Be polite walk on the right: The White Zone is for loading and unloading of passengers; there is NO STOPPING in the RED ZONE



And there's only room for hauling ass in the DANGER ZONE,
 
Be polite walk on the right
2023-02-08 1:16:24 PM  
cloud.filmfed.comView Full Size


that counts me out

/I had sex
//(with a girl)
 
Markoff_Cheney [recently expired TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-08 1:27:31 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

My man comes through!
 
Caelistis
2023-02-08 1:31:24 PM  

Be polite walk on the right: [cloud.filmfed.com image 800x1200]

that counts me out

/I had sex
//(with a girl)



RIP Mia Amber Davis aka "Rhonda".
 
wxboy
2023-02-08 1:37:32 PM  

Markoff_Cheney: [Fark user image 425x310]
My man comes through!


My understanding is that the weather is why SW had a delayed takeoff; the reported weather was freezing fog. As a result, either SW or 737 operating procedures required about a 30-second engine runup at almost-full power before releasing the brakes for takeoff, presumably to ensure any ice buildup on/in the engines melted off. It's not clear whether ATC was aware of this, or whether the SW pilots ever mentioned it. It thus wasn't because SW was just lollygagging.
 
WelldeadLink
2023-02-08 1:40:36 PM  

edmo: This goes on every day at busy airports when the weather is Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC), meaning the pilots can see for miles.


The FedEx pilot was doing an automated landing due to awful visibility. FedEx pilot should have been only flying by instruments, so unable to see what became visible a thousand feet ahead and below.

Not that you're supposed to have to dodge things which are 800-1000 feet ahead of you.
 
Charlie Freak [OhFark]
2023-02-08 1:42:03 PM  

WelldeadLink: Flowery Twats: Yeah, that was scary. I get that to keep things moving, it's a bit of a ballet, but the delay in Southwest's roll kind of screwed everything up. Controller didn't seem like he was on top of the situation.

I don't think that Southwest had a delay, and often a departing plane spends much longer preparing to roll. The tower knew the landing plane was only 3-4 miles away when they put the Southwest plane in danger.


Especially when the temps are low like that. 737s in particular have a standard op to run N1 up for a bit with the brakes on before going to full throttle and starting their takeoff roll. SWA should have put that together with the whole heavy on a three-mile final thing.

Just a loss of situational awareness and a general lack of urgency by everyone except FedEx. I loved the "confirm we are still cleared to land." It's basically passive-aggressive pilotese for "you sure what you're about to do is going to work and not kill us?"

Nobody asks if we're still cleared to land unless they legit forgot, which is low probability with two on the flight deck.
 
Charlie Freak [OhFark]
2023-02-08 1:46:00 PM  

WelldeadLink: edmo: This goes on every day at busy airports when the weather is Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC), meaning the pilots can see for miles.

The FedEx pilot was doing an automated landing due to awful visibility. FedEx pilot should have been only flying by instruments, so unable to see what became visible a thousand feet ahead and below.

Not that you're supposed to have to dodge things which are 800-1000 feet ahead of you.


The FedEx crew was simply on their situational awareness game. That's why sterile cockpit. Those other traffic calls may not be for you, but they might paint a picture that's going to involve you really soon, intentional or otherwise.
 
I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-08 2:01:07 PM  

elaw: drewogatory: ColleenSezWhuut: Tyrone Slothrop: Incog_Neeto: Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.

Even then, the fix will just be a band-aid, since actually modernizing the system is "too expensive" (aka cuts into CEO and shareholder profits).

CEO and shareholder profits for air traffic control run by the FAA?  This was ATC's screwup.

Well, and Southwest farking around on their roll.

I'd put half of the blame on ATC for issuing an impractical/unsafe clearance, and the other half on Southwest for accepting the clearance (and acting on it... they could have just held until the Fedex landed, then took off).


Disagree. WN took off in a reasonable amount of time, given the conditions. If ATC needed them to move faster, the key word would be "expedite" but ATC didn't say that, so WN was under no obligation to move any faster than they did. They were cleared to take off, which allows them to enter the runway, and given then conditions, you can expect that it would take longer for them to take off since seeing down the runway was very hard - and you REALLY want to be in the center of the runway and rolling straight when you're taking off in the fog.

ATC put a plane on a runway that they'd cleared another aircraft to land on without the ability to monitor if the runway was cleared in time to allow the landing. WN doesn't even count as a contributing factor, they flew their clearance as directed, and if ATC needed them to move faster, it is incumbent on ATC to say so, because ATC is responsible for keeping traffic separated in IFR. Both aircraft were flying as cleared by ATC, who cleared them into the same spot without knowing exactly where the two aircraft actually were.

100% ATC. You can't even argue "well, if FedEx hand't gone around" because they're allowed to for any reason if they call it and in LIFR conditions you have to keep the missed approach airspace clear because the landing aircraft may not acquire the runway and go around.
 
WelldeadLink
2023-02-08 2:27:54 PM  
I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: ... 100% ATC. You can't even argue "well, if FedEx hand't gone around" because they're allowed to for any reason if they call it and in LIFR conditions you have to keep the missed approach airspace clear because the landing aircraft may not acquire the runway and go ar ...

It is not unusual for ATC to ask for the reason for a go-round. I noticed that they didn't ask this time.
 
abbarach
2023-02-08 3:01:48 PM  

Charlie Freak: Especially when the temps are low like that. 737s in particular have a standard op to run N1 up for a bit with the brakes on before going to full throttle and starting their takeoff roll. SWA should have put that together with the whole heavy on a three-mile final thing.

Just a loss of situational awareness and a general lack of urgency by everyone except FedEx. I loved the "confirm we are still cleared to land." It's basically passive-aggressive pilotese for "you sure what you're about to do is going to work and not kill us?"

Nobody asks if we're still cleared to land unless they legit forgot, which is low probability with two on the flight deck.


I still get a bit of a kick out of United 232's radio calls.  They suffered engine failure that severed most of the control hydraulics, and were basically limping back to the airport by throttling the left and right engines to sort of steer.  As they got cleared for final, this was the exchange:

Sioux City Approach: "United Two Thirty-Two Heavy, the wind's currently three six zero at one one; three sixty at eleven. You're cleared to land on any runway."
Haynes: "[laughter] Roger. [laughter] You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?"

They were flying a basically uncontrollable plane at that point.  They tumbled into the tarmac and rolled end over end.  A little better than a third of the people on board didn't make it, mostly at the very front and very back of the plane.  The cockpit crew all received serious injuries, but survived.
 
cyberspacedout
2023-02-08 3:12:27 PM  

Flowery Twats: Yeah, that was scary. I get that to keep things moving, it's a bit of a ballet, but the delay in Southwest's roll kind of screwed everything up. Controller didn't seem like he was on top of the situation.


Well, you could say the FedEx crew was on top of the situation.
 
Sexy Jesus [recently expired TotalFark]
2023-02-08 3:36:51 PM  

Flowery Twats: Yeah, that was scary. I get that to keep things moving, it's a bit of a ballet, but the delay in Southwest's roll kind of screwed everything up. Controller didn't seem like he was on top of the situation.


Controller should have known better, Southwest is infamous for delays.
 
Be polite walk on the right
2023-02-08 4:09:38 PM  
You see -- Congresspersons sometimes need to fly places.

Airlines are owned by Corporations Too Big Too Fail
 
elaw [BareFark]
2023-02-08 4:12:15 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: elaw: drewogatory: ColleenSezWhuut: Tyrone Slothrop: Incog_Neeto: Everything will continue as normal until we have an actual collision.

Even then, the fix will just be a band-aid, since actually modernizing the system is "too expensive" (aka cuts into CEO and shareholder profits).

CEO and shareholder profits for air traffic control run by the FAA?  This was ATC's screwup.

Well, and Southwest farking around on their roll.

I'd put half of the blame on ATC for issuing an impractical/unsafe clearance, and the other half on Southwest for accepting the clearance (and acting on it... they could have just held until the Fedex landed, then took off).

Disagree. WN took off in a reasonable amount of time, given the conditions. If ATC needed them to move faster, the key word would be "expedite" but ATC didn't say that, so WN was under no obligation to move any faster than they did. They were cleared to take off, which allows them to enter the runway, and given then conditions, you can expect that it would take longer for them to take off since seeing down the runway was very hard - and you REALLY want to be in the center of the runway and rolling straight when you're taking off in the fog.

ATC put a plane on a runway that they'd cleared another aircraft to land on without the ability to monitor if the runway was cleared in time to allow the landing. WN doesn't even count as a contributing factor, they flew their clearance as directed, and if ATC needed them to move faster, it is incumbent on ATC to say so, because ATC is responsible for keeping traffic separated in IFR. Both aircraft were flying as cleared by ATC, who cleared them into the same spot without knowing exactly where the two aircraft actually were.

100% ATC. You can't even argue "well, if FedEx hand't gone around" because they're allowed to for any reason if they call it and in LIFR conditions you have to keep the missed approach airspace clear because the landing aircraft may not acquire the runway and go ar ...


Well I've got to disagree back.  ;^)

Almost verbatim from an FAA publication: the pilot has final responsibility for the safe conduct of a flight.  If a pilot knowingly does something unsafe because ATC tells him (/her) to, they don't get to shift 100% of the blame to ATC.  The Southwest pilot knew that another plane was due to land on that runway in about 1.5 minutes (there's the "knowingly" part), and chose to taxi onto the runway and take off anyway.  So (s)he definitely shares in the blame for this.
 
batrachoseps
2023-02-09 1:04:17 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: WelldeadLink: Maybe because two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time?
It's just a wild guess, it's not like I'm educated in dangerousness.

How to say "I know nothing about quantum systems" without saying it.


Do you know how hard it is to get 2 airliners to become Bose-Einstein condensate?
 
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