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(The Irish Times)   He's never going to show up now   (irishtimes.com) divider line
54
    More: Asinine, Waiting for Godot, Theatre of the Absurd, Netherlands, Gender, Samuel Beckett, Woman, Law, Theatre  
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2638 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 06 Feb 2023 at 1:50 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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NeoCortex42 [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 1:17:28 PM  
"If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.
 
Marcus Aurelius [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-06 1:35:32 PM  
They could have the women wear truck nuts.  That would be perfect.
 
Bob_Laublaw [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 1:37:01 PM  
In keeping with this theme, I think a bold choice for the lead role in the inevitable Dolly Parton biopic would be Willem Dafoe
 
phalamir [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 1:39:04 PM  

NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.


Prefacing this with that I've never read the play: unless their race/gender are absolutely vital for the plot of the play, why the hell should it matter.  Orson Wells staged The Haitian Play without changing a damned word.  And Willie Shakes would have expected no women even allowed in his plays.  And that is besides the fact that the image includes a person of Scots and Irish extraction who is queer.  By the standards of Beckett's time, said actor was neither White nor a man.  If Gandalf can handle the part, an Afro-Caribbean parapalegic lesbian is no more transgressive
 
Benevolent Misanthrope [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-06 1:50:36 PM  

phalamir: NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.

Prefacing this with that I've never read the play: unless their race/gender are absolutely vital for the plot of the play, why the hell should it matter.  Orson Wells staged The Haitian Play without changing a damned word.  And Willie Shakes would have expected no women even allowed in his plays.  And that is besides the fact that the image includes a person of Scots and Irish extraction who is queer.  By the standards of Beckett's time, said actor was neither White nor a man.  If Gandalf can handle the part, an Afro-Caribbean parapalegic lesbian is no more transgressive


It matters because Beckett (a notorious asshole) said specifically that under no circumstances should women be cast, and his estate has upheld that to the point of suing theater companies who cast women.  That's it.  That's all of it.  It's a "because the artist said so" thing, and they retain control over the work.

It has nothing to do with the ability of women or non-cis men to deliver a good performance.  It's that Beckett said "no".

In 2059, when they lose the rights, do what you like.  Until then, I say theater companies should allow it to lapse into obscurity, a relic of the past that we need not worry with anymore.

/Honestly, I never got why everyone thought it was so amazing.  To me, it seemed the equivalent of some arteest smearing shiat on a floor and saying "It's transgressive art, you just don't get it."
 
NeoCortex42 [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 1:52:06 PM  

phalamir: NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.

Prefacing this with that I've never read the play: unless their race/gender are absolutely vital for the plot of the play, why the hell should it matter.  Orson Wells staged The Haitian Play without changing a damned word.  And Willie Shakes would have expected no women even allowed in his plays.  And that is besides the fact that the image includes a person of Scots and Irish extraction who is queer.  By the standards of Beckett's time, said actor was neither White nor a man.  If Gandalf can handle the part, an Afro-Caribbean parapalegic lesbian is no more transgressive


The guy producing the play here said he considered it but opted to go with the traditional cast, and it sounds like the university would have been fine with a play of all white guys.  Saying "we don't mind if there's a play of all white guys, but you have to pretend to give other people you're not considering an audition" is just performative bullshiat that wastes the time of everybody involved.
 
NeoCortex42 [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 1:56:32 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: phalamir: NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.

Prefacing this with that I've never read the play: unless their race/gender are absolutely vital for the plot of the play, why the hell should it matter.  Orson Wells staged The Haitian Play without changing a damned word.  And Willie Shakes would have expected no women even allowed in his plays.  And that is besides the fact that the image includes a person of Scots and Irish extraction who is queer.  By the standards of Beckett's time, said actor was neither White nor a man.  If Gandalf can handle the part, an Afro-Caribbean parapalegic lesbian is no more transgressive

It matters because Beckett (a notorious asshole) said specifically that under no circumstances should women be cast, and his estate has upheld that to the point of suing theater companies who cast women.  That's it.  That's all of it.  It's a "because the artist said so" thing, and they retain control over the work.

It has nothing to do with the ability of women or non-cis men to deliver a good performance.  It's that Beckett said "no".

In 2059, when they lose the rights, do what you like.  Until then, I say theater companies should allow it to lapse into obscurity, a relic of the past that we need not worry with anymore.

/Honestly, I never got why everyone thought it was so amazing.  To me, it seemed the equivalent of some arteest smearing shiat on a floor and saying "It's transgressive art, you just don't get it."


Yeah, all that too.

Just put on a production of a better show that can actually have a diverse cast of actors instead of picking one where your hands are tied in casting.
 
BeesNuts
2023-02-06 1:56:48 PM  

phalamir: NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.

Prefacing this with that I've never read the play: unless their race/gender are absolutely vital for the plot of the play, why the hell should it matter.  Orson Wells staged The Haitian Play without changing a damned word.  And Willie Shakes would have expected no women even allowed in his plays.  And that is besides the fact that the image includes a person of Scots and Irish extraction who is queer.  By the standards of Beckett's time, said actor was neither White nor a man.  If Gandalf can handle the part, an Afro-Caribbean parapalegic lesbian is no more transgressive


It could be argued that the gender of the characters is kind of important to some of the central themes.  It speaks to certain unique cultural experiences of aging men who are growing mutually estranged from society.

That said, I don't see why an actress couldn't throw on a hobo suit and absolutely *kill it*.  But the characters themselves are hard to disconnect from their gendered experience.
 
LewDux [OhFark]
2023-02-06 2:00:38 PM  
Stewart Lee - Andrew Lloyd Webber
Youtube Lda1I0pn9YM
 
brainlordmesomorph
2023-02-06 2:11:19 PM  
So I guess my revival of Twelve Angry Men is off?
 
edmo [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-06 2:15:23 PM  

Bob_Laublaw: In keeping with this theme, I think a bold choice for the lead role in the inevitable Dolly Parton biopic would be Willem Dafoe


And they will protest that as well, then cancel.
 
Another Government Employee
2023-02-06 2:17:11 PM  

phalamir: NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.

Prefacing this with that I've never read the play: unless their race/gender are absolutely vital for the plot of the play, why the hell should it matter.  Orson Wells staged The Haitian Play without changing a damned word.  And Willie Shakes would have expected no women even allowed in his plays.  And that is besides the fact that the image includes a person of Scots and Irish extraction who is queer.  By the standards of Beckett's time, said actor was neither White nor a man.  If Gandalf can handle the part, an Afro-Caribbean parapalegic lesbian is no more transgressive


I've been involved in two productions of the play over the years. When you get the licensing information, it very specifically says that all the characters must be male in either the first or second of the performance clauses, and any deviation would be considered a breach of contract.

The reason many small companies like it is it can be done as a completely black box production with only minimal furnishing on set. Therefore, it is one of the cheapest things you can do.
 
CarnySaur [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 2:17:51 PM  

brainlordmesomorph: So I guess my revival of Twelve Angry Men is off?



My favorite version.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
Another Government Employee
2023-02-06 2:18:46 PM  

brainlordmesomorph: So I guess my revival of Twelve Angry Men is off?


I've been in a production of that where the Protagonist was a woman. It was an interesting take.
 
xanadian [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 2:19:49 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


Only the bloody Dutch...
 
xanadian [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 2:27:46 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: /Honestly, I never got why everyone thought it was so amazing.  To me, it seemed the equivalent of some arteest smearing shiat on a floor and saying "It's transgressive art, you just don't get it."


To me, it seemed very much a play about nothing.  Kind of like how "Seinfeld" was a show about nothing.
 
Plaster Lion
2023-02-06 2:27:54 PM  
This has become absurd.
 
xanadian [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 2:28:23 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: They could have the women wear truck nuts.  That would be perfect.


They should re-do it but with 5 women.  Name it "Waiting for Gal Gadot."
 
xanadian [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 2:30:56 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: It matters because Beckett (a notorious asshole) said specifically that under no circumstances should women be cast, and his estate has upheld that to the point of suing theater companies who cast women.  That's it.  That's all of it.  It's a "because the artist said so" thing, and they retain control over the work.


I was just reading about this in Wikipedia.  Apparently he (and his estate) did try to sue in the past...and it failed.

Womp womp.
 
frestcrallen [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 2:32:32 PM  
Don't tell Jordan Peterson.
 
Benevolent Misanthrope [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-06 2:38:32 PM  

xanadian: Benevolent Misanthrope: It matters because Beckett (a notorious asshole) said specifically that under no circumstances should women be cast, and his estate has upheld that to the point of suing theater companies who cast women.  That's it.  That's all of it.  It's a "because the artist said so" thing, and they retain control over the work.

I was just reading about this in Wikipedia.  Apparently he (and his estate) did try to sue in the past...and it failed.

Womp womp.


They came to a compromise, I thought.

Anyway, most small theater companies that love this play because - as pointed out above - it's cheap to put on, would never be able to afford a legal defense.  They can't afford to BE sued, whether or not they would win it.
 
Cthulhu Theory
2023-02-06 2:53:43 PM  

NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.


That's because there's no better inclusivity than performative inclusivity.
 
OtherLittleGuy [BareFark]
2023-02-06 2:53:58 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: It matters because Beckett (a notorious asshole) said specifically that under no circumstances should women be cast, and his estate has upheld that to the point of suing theater companies who cast women.  That's it.  That's all of it.  It's a "because the artist said so" thing, and they retain control over the work.


I am not an Irish Lawyer (or any other kind of lawyer), but ....

xanadian: I was just reading about this in Wikipedia.  Apparently he (and his estate) did try to sue in the past...and it failed.

Womp womp.


Never mind. At first, it sounded too much like a "covenant" law.

Benevolent Misanthrope: Anyway, most small theater companies that love this play because - as pointed out above - it's cheap to put on, would never be able to afford a legal defense.  They can't afford to BE sued, whether or not they would win it.


There's no such think as someone rich and powerful enough to back them, or maybe EU Law?
 
vudukungfu [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 2:55:28 PM  
Looks like I'm a shoo in for the vagina monologues
 
OtherLittleGuy [BareFark]
2023-02-06 2:57:34 PM  
From the Wiki:

Beckett was not open to most interpretative approaches to his work. He famously objected when, in the 1980s, several women's acting companies began to stage the play. "Women don't have prostates", said Beckett, a reference to the fact that Vladimir frequently has to leave the stage to urinate.

Hey, you stupid dead Englishman, you ever hear of Chron's on IBS?
 
Cthulhu Theory
2023-02-06 3:01:01 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: From the Wiki:

Beckett was not open to most interpretative approaches to his work. He famously objected when, in the 1980s, several women's acting companies began to stage the play. "Women don't have prostates", said Beckett, a reference to the fact that Vladimir frequently has to leave the stage to urinate.

Hey, you stupid dead Englishman, you ever hear of Chron's on IBS?


Um... Those don't have much to do with urination.
 
The Reverend Sam Hill [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-06 3:13:04 PM  
If Disney thinks that absurdly long copyright terms are all fine and well, then they can share their billions with the heirs of the Brothers Grimm.
 
LrdPhoenix
2023-02-06 3:13:07 PM  
You know, given the existence of a personal god, with white beard, outside time, without extension, who, from the heights of divine apathia, divine athambia, divine aphasia, loves us dearly, with some exceptions, for reasons unknown, but time will tell, and suffers like the divine Miranda with those who, for reasons unknown, but time will tell, are plunged in torment, plunged in fire, whose fire flames (if that continues, and who can doubt it) will fire the firmament, that is to say, blast hell to heaven, so blue still and calm, so calm with a calm, which even though intermittent, is better than nothing, I think it should be just fine to have women in the cast.
 
Pants full of macaroni!! [BareFark]
2023-02-06 3:29:04 PM  
For my AP English project I wrote a one-act sequel to Godot that featured characters from other literature we studied that year, including Nora Helmer from A Doll's House.

/nscsb
/I'm pretty sure I don't have it anymore
 
frestcrallen [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 3:34:11 PM  

Another Government Employee: The reason many small companies like it is it can be done as a completely black box production with only minimal furnishing on set. Therefore, it is one of the cheapest things you can do


It's the same with Endgame.  I saw a student production in university, and the set was basically one chair and two barrels.

It helps explain why that particular play was produced.  Beckett's bleak existentialism was certainly an interesting choice of theme to regale groups of students barely into their 20s.
 
Outshined_One [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 3:34:44 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: /Honestly, I never got why everyone thought it was so amazing.  To me, it seemed the equivalent of some arteest smearing shiat on a floor and saying "It's transgressive art, you just don't get it."


Beckett is one of those playwrights where you need to see a good production to really understand what the hell he was doing; kind of like Harold Pinter and certain Shakespeare plays.  Reading those plays just isn't the same as seeing a good performance, either.

Using a slightly absurd baking analogy, most people can make decent brioche with enough training, but very few people in the world have the skills, equipment, patience, and training to make a perfect Pannettone.  Most Beckett productions I've seen (namely Godot, Endgame, and his one acts) have been staged by college groups or local theatre companies that spent copious amounts of time jacking off to the likes of Freud and Brecht.  I don't think those productions worked because the actors and directors were too busy trying to find some deep inner meaning in plays that are supposed to be dark comedies.

However, I've also seen productions of Godot and Endgame from touring companies (namely out of England and Ireland) that place in my favorite live shows of all time.  With those productions, it felt like the actors treated Beckett's dialogue the same way they would treat iambic pentameter; it's not so much what you say as how you say it.
 
OtherLittleGuy [BareFark]
2023-02-06 3:43:57 PM  

frestcrallen: It's the same with Endgame.  I saw a student production in university, and the set was basically one chair and two barrels.


So, how did you make the Portals?
 
Ersatz Hatrack
2023-02-06 4:03:46 PM  
This is why people rebel against "woke" culture.  You'd think inclusion would be a reasonable goal but being human we have to make it unreasonable.

Have a gay character in a script and want to cast a non-gay actor?  Disgusting!
Have a trans character in a script and want to cast a non-trans actor?  Reprehensible!
Have a person of color in a script and want to cast a white actor?  Inconceivable!

Have a man in a script and want to cast a man?  How dare you not be inclusive?
 
recondite cetacean
2023-02-06 4:05:08 PM  
Do we go around changing DaVinci's color choices every century?
 
I Ate Shergar [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-06 4:20:26 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: From the Wiki:

Beckett was not open to most interpretative approaches to his work. He famously objected when, in the 1980s, several women's acting companies began to stage the play. "Women don't have prostates", said Beckett, a reference to the fact that Vladimir frequently has to leave the stage to urinate.

Hey, you stupid dead Englishman, you ever hear of Chron's on IBS?


He was Irish.
 
peachpicker
2023-02-06 4:23:08 PM  

Outshined_One: Benevolent Misanthrope: /Honestly, I never got why everyone thought it was so amazing.  To me, it seemed the equivalent of some arteest smearing shiat on a floor and saying "It's transgressive art, you just don't get it."

Beckett is one of those playwrights where you need to see a good production to really understand what the hell he was doing; kind of like Harold Pinter and certain Shakespeare plays.  Reading those plays just isn't the same as seeing a good performance, either.

Using a slightly absurd baking analogy, most people can make decent brioche with enough training, but very few people in the world have the skills, equipment, patience, and training to make a perfect Pannettone.  Most Beckett productions I've seen (namely Godot, Endgame, and his one acts) have been staged by college groups or local theatre companies that spent copious amounts of time jacking off to the likes of Freud and Brecht.  I don't think those productions worked because the actors and directors were too busy trying to find some deep inner meaning in plays that are supposed to be dark comedies.

However, I've also seen productions of Godot and Endgame from touring companies (namely out of England and Ireland) that place in my favorite live shows of all time.  With those productions, it felt like the actors treated Beckett's dialogue the same way they would treat iambic pentameter; it's not so much what you say as how you say it.


I would have loved to see Magneto and Dr. Xavier's production in NYC a few years ago.
 
OtherLittleGuy [BareFark]
2023-02-06 4:29:33 PM  

I Ate Shergar: OtherLittleGuy: From the Wiki:

Beckett was not open to most interpretative approaches to his work. He famously objected when, in the 1980s, several women's acting companies began to stage the play. "Women don't have prostates", said Beckett, a reference to the fact that Vladimir frequently has to leave the stage to urinate.

Hey, you stupid dead Englishman, you ever hear of Chron's on IBS?

He was Irish.


Fark user imageView Full Size


/or rather, the put-down
//or maybe he should be considered Welsh
 
Magnus Eisengrim
2023-02-06 4:32:20 PM  

Ersatz Hatrack: This is why people rebel against "woke" culture.  You'd think inclusion would be a reasonable goal but being human we have to make it unreasonable.

Have a gay character in a script and want to cast a non-gay actor?  Disgusting!
Have a trans character in a script and want to cast a non-trans actor?  Reprehensible!
Have a person of color in a script and want to cast a white actor?  Inconceivable!

Have a man in a script and want to cast a man?  How dare you not be inclusive?


Wait until they find out about professional sports...
 
chitownmike
2023-02-06 4:46:21 PM  

NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.


That and I think they can "ban people right from the start"
 
chitownmike
2023-02-06 4:50:29 PM  

NeoCortex42: Benevolent Misanthrope: phalamir: NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.

Prefacing this with that I've never read the play: unless their race/gender are absolutely vital for the plot of the play, why the hell should it matter.  Orson Wells staged The Haitian Play without changing a damned word.  And Willie Shakes would have expected no women even allowed in his plays.  And that is besides the fact that the image includes a person of Scots and Irish extraction who is queer.  By the standards of Beckett's time, said actor was neither White nor a man.  If Gandalf can handle the part, an Afro-Caribbean parapalegic lesbian is no more transgressive

It matters because Beckett (a notorious asshole) said specifically that under no circumstances should women be cast, and his estate has upheld that to the point of suing theater companies who cast women.  That's it.  That's all of it.  It's a "because the artist said so" thing, and they retain control over the work.

It has nothing to do with the ability of women or non-cis men to deliver a good performance.  It's that Beckett said "no".

In 2059, when they lose the rights, do what you like.  Until then, I say theater companies should allow it to lapse into obscurity, a relic of the past that we need not worry with anymore.

/Honestly, I never got why everyone thought it was so amazing.  To me, it seemed the equivalent of some arteest smearing shiat on a floor and saying "It's transgressive art, you just don't get it."

Yeah, all that too.

Just put on a production of a better show that can actually have a diverse cast of actors instead of picking one where your hands are tied in casting.


Then how would they get press?
 
chitownmike
2023-02-06 4:53:56 PM  

brainlordmesomorph: So I guess my revival of Twelve Angry Men is off?


No, it's much less dangerous than Twelve Angry Women
 
oopsboom
2023-02-06 5:08:51 PM  
am i the only one seeing the obvious answer here?

if you ethically disagree with the artists work so much that you are going to get sued for doing it the way you want to do it...
or if the artists work is so out of touch with modern times that you literally CANNOT perform it the way its written without getting thrown out of the theatre...

STOP PERFORMING IT
let it end and go by the wayside.  it can be a footnote of history.  people can remember it as that thing that did exist, but was too whatever you want to call it too keep around.  you don't have to keep fighting to "fix" it if the owner doesn't allow you to.  let it go.
 
p89tech
2023-02-06 5:09:47 PM  
https://theinfosphere.org/Stupid_Ages#:~:text=The%20Stupid%20Ages%2C%20as%20defined,Fry%20lived.
 
p89tech
2023-02-06 5:10:15 PM  
https://theinfosphere.org/Stupid_Ages#:~:text=The%20Stupid%20Ages%2C%20as%20defined,Fry%20lived.
 
Darth_Lukecash
2023-02-06 5:16:34 PM  

NeoCortex42: "If it concerned a play with five white guys that they'd held open auditions for, everything would have been fine. But you can't ban people right from the start," Usva theatre programmer Bram Douwes told the Ukrant newspaper.

So they'd rather waste everybody's time and audition people that are absolutely not getting cast.


The illusion is part of the dance.
 
MillionDollarMo
2023-02-06 5:33:12 PM  
So much for my stage adaptation of Three Men and a Baby.
 
NeoCortex42 [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 5:35:17 PM  

MillionDollarMo: So much for my stage adaptation of Three Men and a Baby.


To avoid accusations of ageism, the baby will be played by Danny DeVito.
 
LarrySouth
2023-02-06 5:44:33 PM  
The lead picture from TFA has a *very* strong vibe of "I am a Man of Constant Sorrow"...
 
TappingTheVein
2023-02-06 6:24:20 PM  
It's simple: hire black actors in white-face makeup and women with fake beards and a codpiece of rediculous size. The publicity and outrage alone will sell tickets.
 
Ersatz Hatrack
2023-02-06 8:49:49 PM  
Codpieces Of Ridiculous Size?  I don't think they exist.
 
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