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(Daily Kos)   Smashing through the boundaries, science does astound me, gotta charge the batteries   (dailykos.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy  
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1264 clicks; posted to STEM » on 05 Feb 2023 at 9:35 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2023-02-05 5:11:28 PM  
Lithium-ion batteries can store up to about 200 watt-hours per kilogram

Christ, I had no idea they were so inefficient.  So a 1KG battery would only power an old school 100W incandescent bulb for two hours?
 
2023-02-05 5:44:43 PM  

aleister_greynight: Lithium-ion batteries can store up to about 200 watt-hours per kilogram

Christ, I had no idea they were so inefficient.  So a 1KG battery would only power an old school 100W incandescent bulb for two hours?


Yes, and that's much better than other types of battery. A lead-acid car battery would only give you about 5 hours.

https://homebatterybank.com/car-battery-powering-light-bulb-how-long/

For the one in TFA, I'm impressed that they've managed to make it rechargeable.
 
2023-02-05 9:50:24 PM  

aleister_greynight: Lithium-ion batteries can store up to about 200 watt-hours per kilogram

Christ, I had no idea they were so inefficient.  So a 1KG battery would only power an old school 100W incandescent bulb for two hours?


The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Li-air has like 1 in 6 or 1 in 7? That's not a lot better. We are awfully inefficient.
 
2023-02-05 9:51:21 PM  
Shit I'm tired. I read that to the tune of Dragula.
 
2023-02-05 9:55:59 PM  

Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.


Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.
 
2023-02-05 10:05:56 PM  
Nice haiku, Subby
 
2023-02-05 10:12:17 PM  

aarond12: Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.


Oh, I don't fill up. Full electric since end of 2019.
 
2023-02-05 10:29:02 PM  

aarond12: Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.


Gasoline vehicles are closer to 17-20% efficient. Maybe a hybrid might break the 20% barrier.
 
2023-02-05 10:50:13 PM  
Lithium-air doesn't have to get close to gasoline's energy density - gas engines pretty much top out at 35% efficient, while electric motors start at around 80% and can get into the high 90s.

A battery with 1/3 the energy density of gasoline is therefore competitive, though you have to give it a bit more than that to make up for the fact that it has a constant mass while a tank of gas gets lighter as you burn it.

With a battery that can match gasoline, you're talking about having electric cars with double the range of a gasoline powered car, at least.  How awesome that is depends on either charging speed or standardized hot-swap packs, and of course the number of charge cycles the new batteries can handle, but it's so incredibly promising that I'd expect people won't be seriously looking at anything else for a while.
 
2023-02-05 10:51:15 PM  

aarond12: Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.


img.ifunny.coView Full Size
 
2023-02-05 11:29:19 PM  
Oh, seems some folks missed the reference.  Allow me to get the obvious bits out of the way...

/gucci bag photo
//napster bad image
///lars image
////fue fye image
 
2023-02-06 12:00:07 AM  

aleister_greynight: Lithium-ion batteries can store up to about 200 watt-hours per kilogram

Christ, I had no idea they were so inefficient.  So a 1KG battery would only power an old school 100W incandescent bulb for two hours?


They're extremely efficient. They're just heavy. The word you're looking for is heavy.
 
2023-02-06 12:15:35 AM  

aarond12: Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.


It's fun to think about in terms of EVs. Where I live Toyota advertises the Prius as getting 61mpg. That means the car is getting about (61 miles per Gal divided by 33.4kWh per Gal of gas) 1.82mi/kWh. The electric F-150 Lightning gets 2.4mi/kWh in real world tests. The Hummer EV gets about 1.8mi/kWh in real world tests. Those vehicles weigh 6,000 and 9,000lbs, and have drag coefficients of .54 and .56 respectively. The Prius weighs 3,010lbs and has a drag coefficient of 0.25.

Gasoline cars are stupidly, stupidly inefficient.

Don't get me wrong, I think the big honking giant battery EV trucks are silly and wasteful. But it's funny that the theoretical best mileage of an ICE car that many see as the pinnacle of gasoline efficiency can barely compete.
 
2023-02-06 12:27:17 AM  

aarond12: Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.


Also heat.
 
2023-02-06 12:52:49 AM  
Apparently, not being astounded and amazed by batteries is my superpower. What excites me is how much we DON'T and shouldn't need batteries to do dumb things like fry eggs and move heavy hunks of metal at ludicrous speeds.

Sure a one kilogram battery will keep an incandescent lightbulb going for only a few hours. You know what is better? An LED lightbulb. How lucky we are that someone came along and invented that lightbulb before someone came along to invent a battery that is 10 times better than what we have now. Even low quality LEDs are great. A couple of AA NiMH batteries will light them for... what... a year or so?

And smaller, safer, lighter vehicles that can be used efficiently at lower speeds and with less acceleration are the way we SHOULD be saving fuel. No. Someone had to evangelize for heavy vehicles driven at ludickerous speeds to the point that we have the worst of every world possible... the HUMVEE EV that can go from zero to 60 in a nanosecond. Fuel economy and safety of reasonable vehicles have improved astronomically for decades. Who decided that we had to give up size, safety, and mass-reduction achievements just to adopt some different chemical process? Some lying billionaire.... that's who.

You know what is better than a home battery to run my electric heaters in the winter? A heat pump, running off of grid electricity. Cross your fingers and hope your grid is reliable. A 10 kWh power wall will run your radiant heat for a few hours before pooping out. My heating oil tank outside keeps me heated for a month and a half, even when my solar panels are covered. Even if the grid were to go down.

People are missing it. Batteries are not THE ANSWER that they are cracked up to be. There are neat applications for them that can boost efficiency over vast numbers of users, such as hybrids or plug in hybrids, but making them the centerpiece and pitching out all of our proven infrastructure, and then legislating that choice for everyone is a surrender to faddishness, blind hope, and ignorance to the plight of have-nots.

On one site where people are discussing EVs right now, some guy is making the point that steam ships and automobiles outmoded sailing ships and horse drawn carriages. Sure. But it took a long time and huge gluts of wood, coal, and oil that major trading nations were able to run to. In places where those resources were in short supply, sail was competitive to the 1920s and horses to the 1950s. See how efficiency does not really matter? People who think that EVs must be better for everyone everywhere just because they are more efficient in LA and SF are missing it. They are engineers who just can't figure out why people eat bananas and not breadfruit.

And I am no luddite. There are plenty of cool things that batteries can do for aviation, passenger vehicles, healthcare, portable appliances, and tons of other stuff. Let me just say that batteries are the wrong place to turn for a lot of the "urgent heavy lifting" that people seem to need. Wasting huge masses of battery materials on questionable applications can't be better than applying them judiciously where they can do the greatest good. Wasn't social benefit supposed to be the main message anyway?
 
2023-02-06 1:45:13 AM  
I'll be amazed when the whatever actually makes it to production. I've been hearing about so damn many replacements for lithium ion batteries forever, Li-air included, and the only time in recent memory that I've been able to see that "wow" moment was lithium polymer batteries that didn't have a pipe bomb or rocket failure mode. Sure they sometimes swell and maybe erupt into flames, and that's an improvement. The implementation side of that's gone to shiat with all those being practically welded into devices that will eventually pack landfills, but that's not the fault of the battery.

Cool that lithium-air still has traction after all these years and hasn't hit some kind of clear dead end, but I'll save any smiles for when it's in my hand.
 
2023-02-06 1:55:06 AM  
DNRTFA, just here to congratulate Subby on that headline.
 
2023-02-06 2:06:29 AM  

wax_on: aarond12: Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.

Also heat.


Just thought it was funny that you pointed out heat, when it was already pointed out.
 
2023-02-06 3:23:23 AM  

2fardownthread: Wasting huge masses of battery materials


As opposed to wasting massive amounts of fossil fuels? You'd be more convincing if you weren't a full-throated advocate for gasoline-powered vehicles.

And we're not going to forget your little rant about how corruption amongst environmental groups is the real reason we haven't slowed down global warming. Or that you think environmentalists are unfairly maligning coal.

tl;dr STFU you Boomer POS
 
2023-02-06 8:17:04 AM  
While using 1/3 the lithium to get energy storage equivalent to today's batteries is a great start (and if 2/3 of the weight of current batteries could be shaved off, a 1/3 size lithium air battery would provide greater range than current batteries with the same kWh due to the weight savings), I would hope that something similar would be possible using a more accessible element like sodium.

Even with this new technology, I still wonder if it would be better to use lithium batteries only for mobile/portable applications, and use other "dumber" battery technology for stuff like grid storage. Why waste so much lithium for applications where weight doesn't matter?
 
2023-02-06 8:56:27 AM  

I know a guy: While using 1/3 the lithium to get energy storage equivalent to today's batteries is a great start (and if 2/3 of the weight of current batteries could be shaved off, a 1/3 size lithium air battery would provide greater range than current batteries with the same kWh due to the weight savings), I would hope that something similar would be possible using a more accessible element like sodium.

Even with this new technology, I still wonder if it would be better to use lithium batteries only for mobile/portable applications, and use other "dumber" battery technology for stuff like grid storage. Why waste so much lithium for applications where weight doesn't matter?


Sodium batteries are coming. Both BYD and CATL have announced they'll have sodium ion batteries for vehicles this year. They're not as energy dense as lithium ternary batteries, but they're roughly on par with LFP batteries. Since they're still difficult to manufacture, packs with these new cells will be "hybrid" batteries with 2/3 or 1/2 of the pack being LFP. Expect to see the CATL cells in an entry-level Tesla this year or next. Expect Fark's Elon-obsessed EV haters to blow a gasket.

I'm really excited for what BYD comes out with.
 
2023-02-06 10:28:06 AM  
Ha, it took me a second but once I knew what it was I involuntarily said it at the proper cadence.
 
2023-02-06 10:34:44 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2023-02-06 10:40:12 AM  

ohokyeah: wax_on: aarond12: Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.

Also heat.

Just thought it was funny that you pointed out heat, when it was already pointed out.


Well, original comment seems to think that losses to friction in the transmission are something other than heat.
 
2023-02-06 10:48:20 AM  

wax_on: ohokyeah: wax_on: aarond12: Quantumbunny: The graph with theoretical vs realized densities is also insane. Gasoline has theoretically 8 times more energy than we can currently extract from it? That is terrible.

Yep. Gasoline vehicles are between 20-25% efficient at converting gasoline into motion. Think about that next time you fill up. Of that $100 fill up, you're able to use $20-25 of it. The rest is released as heat and other lossy things like transmissions.

Also heat.

Just thought it was funny that you pointed out heat, when it was already pointed out.

Well, original comment seems to think that losses to friction in the transmission are something other than heat.


I'm just looking at the graph in the article, that has very little context or explanation. If they are taking about the actual practical wheels on the road end result, or just the actual step of extracting the energy, because the graph talks about the practical vs theoretical storage capacity, and many of these other techs aren't used in cars, so I assume they are talking about the unrealized capacity, not the heat loss of transfer, for example.

But I could certainly be incorrect about the data behind the graph.
 
2023-02-06 12:08:24 PM  

flood222: [Fark user image 425x289]


...and I do. My vehicle is powered by my solar panels. Thank you for bringing that up.
 
2023-02-06 12:48:26 PM  

aarond12: flood222: [Fark user image 425x289]

...and I do. My vehicle is powered by my solar panels. Thank you for bringing that up.


It's still a stupid qualifier.  Centralised power generation is more efficient, so even if the grid isn't green, it's typically greener that burning gas in individual vehicles.

And every time a new renewable power source is plugged in, every EV charging off it magically gets greener at the same time.
 
2023-02-07 10:06:50 AM  

aarond12: flood222: [Fark user image 425x289]

...and I do. My vehicle is powered by my solar panels. Thank you for bringing that up.


Good for you!
Now we just need to force the rest of the planet to follow suit.

How much did your setup cost?
 
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