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(The San Francisco Standard)   The San Francisco Market Street Subway apparently runs on 5.25" floppy disks which is really weird because Subby was assuming it ran on a track   (sfstandard.com) divider line
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    More: Strange, Floppy disk, Southwest Airlines, Computer, San Francisco, IBM, NASA, San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency, Transport  
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964 clicks; posted to STEM » on 05 Feb 2023 at 6:02 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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Pinnacle Point [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-05 3:02:14 PM  
The minuteman ICBM systems still often uses 8 inch floppies.
 
Somaticasual [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 3:04:52 PM  
And 5.25" floppies, no less. Not even 3.5". That is commitment to outdated technology....
 
fragMasterFlash [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-05 3:13:12 PM  
Okay relax, and assume the position
Go into doggie submission...

Carnivore - Technophobia
Youtube 2TRXzXG_gpo
 
Benevolent Misanthrope [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-05 3:14:29 PM  
So... why don't they upgrade?  Isn't it simply a matter of data storage?  Couldn't you find a way to attach a modern drive to a SCSI (Or parallel, whatever) port while you figure out how to make it a more modern solution?
 
kdawg7736 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-05 3:38:19 PM  
I thought it ran on smugness.
 
Unobtanium [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-05 3:39:31 PM  

Pinnacle Point: The minuteman ICBM systems still often uses 8 inch floppies.


I used 8" floppies on a DECwriter in my senior undergraduate year (1982 -1983). It was the only time I ever used them.
 
thecactusman17 [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 5:32:30 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So... why don't they upgrade?  Isn't it simply a matter of data storage?  Couldn't you find a way to attach a modern drive to a SCSI (Or parallel, whatever) port while you figure out how to make it a more modern solution?


It's more likely an issue that the original system has numerous extreme legacy parts interacting with controllers and switches at the track and replacing all of them with newer compatible hardware would be a massive infrastructure project involving digging out and replacing dozens or hundreds of decades old components.

I've seen the MUNI system control office, if there's something running on floppy disks in there it's very well hidden because everything else is quite modern. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.
 
paulleah
2023-02-05 6:11:13 PM  
I'd rather deal with 1600 lines of COBOL than 3.2 million lines of Objective C. Or... omg.. any Net.DATA from IBM. Or 100 lines of C#.
 
harleyquinnical
2023-02-05 6:15:55 PM  

thecactusman17: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... why don't they upgrade?  Isn't it simply a matter of data storage?  Couldn't you find a way to attach a modern drive to a SCSI (Or parallel, whatever) port while you figure out how to make it a more modern solution?

It's more likely an issue that the original system has numerous extreme legacy parts interacting with controllers and switches at the track and replacing all of them with newer compatible hardware would be a massive infrastructure project involving digging out and replacing dozens or hundreds of decades old components.

I've seen the MUNI system control office, if there's something running on floppy disks in there it's very well hidden because everything else is quite modern. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.


They have approximately 15 years to figure out what, where, and how to upgrade the system, or there where be a guaranteed system issue.
 
AmbassadorBooze
2023-02-05 6:27:24 PM  
It's too bad SF doesn't have tech bros.  The government should give grants to companies to lure them to the SF bay area and bring technology skills to the area.

Problem solved.
 
fnordfocus [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 6:27:50 PM  

harleyquinnical: They have approximately 15 years to figure out what, where, and how to upgrade the system, or there where be a guaranteed system issue.


That's assuming the system knows or cares about the date and can't just be set back to 1980 regardless.

We aren't talking about accounting systems here, thankfully.
 
fnordfocus [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 6:28:40 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: It's too bad SF doesn't have tech bros.  The government should give grants to companies to lure them to the SF bay area and bring technology skills to the area.

Problem solved.


You'd be surprised how little some tech bros know about tech, compared to what they know about social media and RSUs
 
Benevolent Misanthrope [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-05 6:30:11 PM  

harleyquinnical: thecactusman17: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... why don't they upgrade?  Isn't it simply a matter of data storage?  Couldn't you find a way to attach a modern drive to a SCSI (Or parallel, whatever) port while you figure out how to make it a more modern solution?

It's more likely an issue that the original system has numerous extreme legacy parts interacting with controllers and switches at the track and replacing all of them with newer compatible hardware would be a massive infrastructure project involving digging out and replacing dozens or hundreds of decades old components.

I've seen the MUNI system control office, if there's something running on floppy disks in there it's very well hidden because everything else is quite modern. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.

They have approximately 15 years to figure out what, where, and how to upgrade the system, or there where be a guaranteed system issue.


Besides which...

OK, so it'd be a pain, and expensive.  But the NY system didn't even have controllers when it was built, and they somehow managed over the years to upgrade it onto computer control, without shutting down the entire subway system to do it.

So again I ask, why don't transit authorities upgrade?  It's not f*cking impossible.  It's inevitable you need to.  You're going to spend more money and effort on the problems that come from refusing to upgrade.

I am sick unto death of the populace just accepting that things have gotten shiattier over time, and there's no way to stop that.  Look at public buildings from the turn of the 20th Century.  Look at what we're getting now.  Why can't we build like that?  Why can't we upgrade our systems when they need it, like they did in the 70s and 80s?

Our public services are going to shiat.  No one gives a shiat, as long as we don't have to pay taxes to make things better.
 
Befuddled
2023-02-05 6:34:51 PM  
I would guess it wouldn't be that hard to replace a 5.25 floppy disk drive with a CD-Rom drive (I probably have one in storage somewhere that could work). At least a CD-Rom drive isn't something that requires a read head to contact the medium.
 
yet_another_wumpus
2023-02-05 6:43:23 PM  

thecactusman17: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... why don't they upgrade?  Isn't it simply a matter of data storage?  Couldn't you find a way to attach a modern drive to a SCSI (Or parallel, whatever) port while you figure out how to make it a more modern solution?

It's more likely an issue that the original system has numerous extreme legacy parts interacting with controllers and switches at the track and replacing all of them with newer compatible hardware would be a massive infrastructure project involving digging out and replacing dozens or hundreds of decades old components.

I've seen the MUNI system control office, if there's something running on floppy disks in there it's very well hidden because everything else is quite modern. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.


There are all kinds of ways to make sure your software won't work with "100% fully compatible hardware".  Back during the y2k crisis, one device I had to certify had parts that were obsolete and no longer made.  Someone just *had* to use the D/A converter built into the microcontroller that ran the original IBM keyboard to control the backlight brightness.  No D/A converter, no backlight.  And if your "micro IBM PC" didn't use identical IBM parts, it wasn't going to work.

Also, the cost of the weird hardware you built your lab around is directly  proportional to just how picky it is about the software that controls it.  Windows XP is a favorite, and expect to fight the IT department to make sure they don't cause a disaster.

/ok, technically it did have a y2k issue
//no idea what happened if you kept it plugged in for 17 years and the date rolled over
///never heard of a compatible IBM PC not crashing in that time
 
AmbassadorBooze
2023-02-05 6:51:55 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: harleyquinnical: thecactusman17: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... why don't they upgrade?  Isn't it simply a matter of data storage?  Couldn't you find a way to attach a modern drive to a SCSI (Or parallel, whatever) port while you figure out how to make it a more modern solution?

It's more likely an issue that the original system has numerous extreme legacy parts interacting with controllers and switches at the track and replacing all of them with newer compatible hardware would be a massive infrastructure project involving digging out and replacing dozens or hundreds of decades old components.

I've seen the MUNI system control office, if there's something running on floppy disks in there it's very well hidden because everything else is quite modern. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.

They have approximately 15 years to figure out what, where, and how to upgrade the system, or there where be a guaranteed system issue.

Besides which...

OK, so it'd be a pain, and expensive.  But the NY system didn't even have controllers when it was built, and they somehow managed over the years to upgrade it onto computer control, without shutting down the entire subway system to do it.

So again I ask, why don't transit authorities upgrade?  It's not f*cking impossible.  It's inevitable you need to.  You're going to spend more money and effort on the problems that come from refusing to upgrade.

I am sick unto death of the populace just accepting that things have gotten shiattier over time, and there's no way to stop that.  Look at public buildings from the turn of the 20th Century.  Look at what we're getting now.  Why can't we build like that?  Why can't we upgrade our systems when they need it, like they did in the 70s and 80s?

Our public services are going to shiat.  No one gives a shiat, as long as we don't have to pay taxes to make things better.


Who's gonna stop things from getting shiattier?  If a politician actually solves a problem, they lose that problem as a campaign issue to run on.  AND the enemy gets the solved problem as a campaign issue to run on if the other politician didn't solve it in a way that helps their base.

It isn't in a politician's best interest to solve problems.  The best interest that accumulates them the most power is to form endless blue ribbon committees and focus groups and studies for the problem.  Then when they absolutely have to work on the problem, spend a shiat ton of money not fixing it.  Then when it isn't fixed, spend more money on the problem saying we can't abandon the project now!  We just need 10 billion more dollars.  Then find out that the needs of the problem has changed and start the cycle over again.
 
Cyclometh [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 6:53:19 PM  
thecactusman17:. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.

Pretty much this. Inertia with large-scale infrastructure systems is very much a thing- there's still plenty of places with water mains in use today, in large cities (like Philadelphia), made out of wood and over 200 years old.
 
cousin-merle
2023-02-05 7:03:00 PM  
I thought it ran on 5-dollar footlongs.
 
leeksfromchichis [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 7:20:24 PM  

Cyclometh: thecactusman17:. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.

Pretty much this. Inertia with large-scale infrastructure systems is very much a thing- there's still plenty of places with water mains in use today, in large cities (like Philadelphia), made out of wood and over 200 years old.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
Cyclometh [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 7:24:31 PM  

leeksfromchichis: Cyclometh: thecactusman17:. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.

Pretty much this. Inertia with large-scale infrastructure systems is very much a thing- there's still plenty of places with water mains in use today, in large cities (like Philadelphia), made out of wood and over 200 years old.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Pretty much. I should revise what I said above after doing some more reading- the number of places with wooden water mains in use today is smaller than I thought, but they are definitely still out there.
 
DON.MAC [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-05 7:26:19 PM  
There are 5.25" disk drive emulators.  They plug in to the existing systems and fake being a floppy disk using modern memory cards.

Also 5.25" drives aren't too bad and the better ones were slightly more reliable than the 3.5" that replaced them.  There are plenty of used drives around and while the disks are getting hard to find, they aren't that hard to find.  A computer shop down the road from me sells new ones.
 
waxbeans [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 7:29:45 PM  

Pinnacle Point: The minuteman ICBM systems still often uses 8 inch floppies.


And yet I was forced off XP . WTF?
 
waxbeans [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 7:33:24 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: harleyquinnical: thecactusman17: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... why don't they upgrade?  Isn't it simply a matter of data storage?  Couldn't you find a way to attach a modern drive to a SCSI (Or parallel, whatever) port while you figure out how to make it a more modern solution?

It's more likely an issue that the original system has numerous extreme legacy parts interacting with controllers and switches at the track and replacing all of them with newer compatible hardware would be a massive infrastructure project involving digging out and replacing dozens or hundreds of decades old components.

I've seen the MUNI system control office, if there's something running on floppy disks in there it's very well hidden because everything else is quite modern. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.

They have approximately 15 years to figure out what, where, and how to upgrade the system, or there where be a guaranteed system issue.

Besides which...

OK, so it'd be a pain, and expensive.  But the NY system didn't even have controllers when it was built, and they somehow managed over the years to upgrade it onto computer control, without shutting down the entire subway system to do it.

So again I ask, why don't transit authorities upgrade?  It's not f*cking impossible.  It's inevitable you need to.  You're going to spend more money and effort on the problems that come from refusing to upgrade.

I am sick unto death of the populace just accepting that things have gotten shiattier over time, and there's no way to stop that.  Look at public buildings from the turn of the 20th Century.  Look at what we're getting now.  Why can't we build like that?  Why can't we upgrade our systems when they need it, like they did in the 70s and 80s?

Our public services are going to shiat.  No one gives a shiat, as long as we don't have to pay taxes to make things better.


Meh. To be fair upgrades happen regularly on phones and it's mostly smoke and mirrors.
 
ZMugg [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 7:38:57 PM  
Could be worse:
s3.amazonaws.comView Full Size

That's a whopping 5mb of pure storage capacity.

... in 1956.
 
austerity101
2023-02-05 7:42:37 PM  
No one wants to spend the money to update their systems. No one. Shareholder greed is killing us.
 
aerojockey [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 7:42:39 PM  
There's no excuse for that.  I could see leaving the software as is, and not changing the hardware that interfaces directly to the.  But loading the software?  It'd be a moderately complex hobby to solder an ISA floppy drive connector and a USB drive with a simple interface, and they might even have stuff like that off the shelf.
 
thecactusman17 [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 8:05:02 PM  

aerojockey: There's no excuse for that.  I could see leaving the software as is, and not changing the hardware that interfaces directly to the.  But loading the software?  It'd be a moderately complex hobby to solder an ISA floppy drive connector and a USB drive with a simple interface, and they might even have stuff like that off the shelf.


I don't think you appreciate how many services and software tools that you take for granted are being maintained and gratis by some retiree from a minor tech company you've never heard of hosted in the basement of their mom's Nebraska farmhouse.
 
aerojockey [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 8:16:58 PM  

thecactusman17: aerojockey: There's no excuse for that.  I could see leaving the software as is, and not changing the hardware that interfaces directly to the.  But loading the software?  It'd be a moderately complex hobby to solder an ISA floppy drive connector and a USB drive with a simple interface, and they might even have stuff like that off the shelf.

I don't think you appreciate how many services and software tools that you take for granted are being maintained and gratis by some retiree from a minor tech company you've never heard of hosted in the basement of their mom's Nebraska farmhouse.


I don't think you appreciate what we're talking about here because that has nothing to do with what I was saying.
 
Mad_Radhu
2023-02-05 8:29:48 PM  

waxbeans: Pinnacle Point: The minuteman ICBM systems still often uses 8 inch floppies.

And yet I was forced off XP . WTF?


ICBMs are connected to the internet.
 
Mad_Radhu
2023-02-05 8:30:04 PM  

Mad_Radhu: waxbeans: Pinnacle Point: The minuteman ICBM systems still often uses 8 inch floppies.

And yet I was forced off XP . WTF?

ICBMs are connected to the internet.


*aren't
 
thecactusman17 [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 8:33:34 PM  

aerojockey: thecactusman17: aerojockey: There's no excuse for that.  I could see leaving the software as is, and not changing the hardware that interfaces directly to the.  But loading the software?  It'd be a moderately complex hobby to solder an ISA floppy drive connector and a USB drive with a simple interface, and they might even have stuff like that off the shelf.

I don't think you appreciate how many services and software tools that you take for granted are being maintained and gratis by some retiree from a minor tech company you've never heard of hosted in the basement of their mom's Nebraska farmhouse.

I don't think you appreciate what we're talking about here because that has nothing to do with what I was saying.


It does actually. The software to properly integrate a lot of old hardware that was intentionally designed to only interact with proprietary systems (and break or fall with anything not exactly to spec) is often being carried out by single engineers or very small teams that focus exclusively on that specific instance for organizations like colleges, libraries, and government agencies.

Essentially it's one off work that costs an arm and a leg and needs to be restarted from scratch with each project. So there's an entire cottage industry of low cost halfway measures that organizations like the SFMTA use to kick the can down the road instead.
 
thecactusman17 [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 8:35:05 PM  

Mad_Radhu: waxbeans: Pinnacle Point: The minuteman ICBM systems still often uses 8 inch floppies.

And yet I was forced off XP . WTF?

ICBMs are connected to the internet.


Yeah but the connection is lousy. 1 dropped packet and everything goes to hell.
 
scanman61
2023-02-05 9:11:18 PM  

yet_another_wumpus: Also, the cost of the weird hardware you built your lab around is directly  proportional to just how picky it is about the software that controls it.  Windows XP is a favorite, and expect to fight the IT department to make sure they don't cause a disaster.


I just built an XP Pro SP3 SSD for one of my work laptops.  GM's programming system seems to be "losing" a bunch of older vehicles so I made a TIS2000 disk.  TIS2000 went obsolete in '08 but I can use that hard drive and my Tech2 to program older stuff.  I can swap the drive for that laptop in under 5 minutes.

Some people still drive their '97 Silverados and still pay money to keep them going.
 
fredbox [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 9:19:01 PM  
You can't fund replacing a system out of the operating budget. You need a sufficiently glamorous capital project to hang your funding source from. That's just the way public funding "works" in America.
 
Shakin_Haitian
2023-02-05 10:03:08 PM  

thecactusman17: Benevolent Misanthrope: So... why don't they upgrade?  Isn't it simply a matter of data storage?  Couldn't you find a way to attach a modern drive to a SCSI (Or parallel, whatever) port while you figure out how to make it a more modern solution?

It's more likely an issue that the original system has numerous extreme legacy parts interacting with controllers and switches at the track and replacing all of them with newer compatible hardware would be a massive infrastructure project involving digging out and replacing dozens or hundreds of decades old components.

I've seen the MUNI system control office, if there's something running on floppy disks in there it's very well hidden because everything else is quite modern. Even so this is actually very common on extremely old infrastructure.


Plus, it's working. Modernizing it runs the risk of breaking... Everything.

I'm not saying this is a good practice, but it makes sense.
 
Shakin_Haitian
2023-02-05 10:04:35 PM  

fnordfocus: AmbassadorBooze: It's too bad SF doesn't have tech bros.  The government should give grants to companies to lure them to the SF bay area and bring technology skills to the area.

Problem solved.

You'd be surprised how little some tech bros know about tech, compared to what they know about social media and RSUs


It is scary how many developers out there have no idea how computers work at even a basic level or how to google basic errors.
 
dobro
2023-02-05 10:45:01 PM  
One small correction: the "save" icon we see in apps are actually a 305 disk not 5.25.
 
aerojockey [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 10:52:10 PM  

thecactusman17: aerojockey: thecactusman17: aerojockey: There's no excuse for that.  I could see leaving the software as is, and not changing the hardware that interfaces directly to the.  But loading the software?  It'd be a moderately complex hobby to solder an ISA floppy drive connector and a USB drive with a simple interface, and they might even have stuff like that off the shelf.

I don't think you appreciate how many services and software tools that you take for granted are being maintained and gratis by some retiree from a minor tech company you've never heard of hosted in the basement of their mom's Nebraska farmhouse.

I don't think you appreciate what we're talking about here because that has nothing to do with what I was saying.

It does actually. The software to properly integrate a lot of old hardware that was intentionally designed to only interact with proprietary systems (and break or fall with anything not exactly to spec) is often being carried out by single engineers or very small teams that focus exclusively on that specific instance for organizations like colleges, libraries, and government agencies.

Essentially it's one off work that costs an arm and a leg and needs to be restarted from scratch with each project. So there's an entire cottage industry of low cost halfway measures that organizations like the SFMTA use to kick the can down the road instead.


Okay, you definitely didn't understand what I was saying.  I was talking about getting a piece of custom or off-the-shelf (if it exists) hardware that interfaces a usb drive to the floppy disk port, so you don't have to use floppies.  In old computers (an old PC with an ISA floppy for instance) that's something a hobbyist with a breadboard could potentially throw together.

You're just rambling some unrelated stuff about software.
 
DON.MAC [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-05 11:24:29 PM  

aerojockey: Okay, you definitely didn't understand what I was saying.  I was talking about getting a piece of custom or off-the-shelf (if it exists) hardware that interfaces a usb drive to the floppy disk port, so you don't have to use floppies.  In old computers (an old PC with an ISA floppy for instance) that's something a hobbyist with a breadboard could potentially throw together.


ISA bus, sure.  The floppy disk interface is analog dealing with odd magnetics so outside of the scope of most digital people.

These people make some of the ones that have been properly tested against things like the old Apple ][ hardware, the common 6843 used in industrial systems back long ago as well as the PC's 765

If you need to swap out out the floppy drive in your ICBM, they might be the ones to talk to.
 
Sub Human [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-06 12:06:37 AM  
"A section of wooden water pipe, long out of service, removed from a Philadelphia street in 1901.  It had been installed about 1801."

https://www.hiddenhydrology.org/the-water-in-the-wood/
 
Decorus
2023-02-06 12:20:48 AM  

Somaticasual: And 5.25" floppies, no less. Not even 3.5". That is commitment to outdated technology....


Do you know how much money it would cost to upgrade it from something that works? You have to come up with the money for it. Its always next year and next year and its going to stay as next year, because each year the cost to replace it goes up and the budget doesn't have the cash to do it. You would have to take out a bond measure to pay for it and upgrading the computer systems that run your subway system isn't sexy so people won't vote for it.
 
dobro
2023-02-06 12:42:59 AM  
Correcting my own mistake: One small correction: the "save" icon we see in apps are actually a 3.5 disk not 5.25.
 
qorkfiend
2023-02-06 2:31:35 AM  

aerojockey: thecactusman17: aerojockey: thecactusman17: aerojockey: There's no excuse for that.  I could see leaving the software as is, and not changing the hardware that interfaces directly to the.  But loading the software?  It'd be a moderately complex hobby to solder an ISA floppy drive connector and a USB drive with a simple interface, and they might even have stuff like that off the shelf.

I don't think you appreciate how many services and software tools that you take for granted are being maintained and gratis by some retiree from a minor tech company you've never heard of hosted in the basement of their mom's Nebraska farmhouse.

I don't think you appreciate what we're talking about here because that has nothing to do with what I was saying.

It does actually. The software to properly integrate a lot of old hardware that was intentionally designed to only interact with proprietary systems (and break or fall with anything not exactly to spec) is often being carried out by single engineers or very small teams that focus exclusively on that specific instance for organizations like colleges, libraries, and government agencies.

Essentially it's one off work that costs an arm and a leg and needs to be restarted from scratch with each project. So there's an entire cottage industry of low cost halfway measures that organizations like the SFMTA use to kick the can down the road instead.

Okay, you definitely didn't understand what I was saying.  I was talking about getting a piece of custom or off-the-shelf (if it exists) hardware that interfaces a usb drive to the floppy disk port, so you don't have to use floppies.  In old computers (an old PC with an ISA floppy for instance) that's something a hobbyist with a breadboard could potentially throw together.

You're just rambling some unrelated stuff about software.


1) I don't think they're interested in adding a "hobbyist breadboard" to their city transit control system

2) swapping floppies for USB doesn't help if the necessary software is still on floppies
 
DON.MAC [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-06 2:57:09 AM  

dobro: Correcting my own mistake: One small correction: the "save" icon we see in apps are actually a 3.5 disk not 5.25.


Keep your new fangled icons off my digital 8 bit lawn.
 
aerojockey [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 3:03:57 AM  

qorkfiend: 1) I don't think they're interested in adding a "hobbyist breadboard" to their city transit control system

2) swapping floppies for USB doesn't help if the necessary software is still on floppies


1. Of course not, I was just pointing out that it's not a prohibitively difficult task even if there isn't something like that out there already.

2. Yes, they'd have to copy data from the floppies to the USB to do that.
 
qorkfiend
2023-02-06 3:19:17 AM  

aerojockey: qorkfiend: 1) I don't think they're interested in adding a "hobbyist breadboard" to their city transit control system

2) swapping floppies for USB doesn't help if the necessary software is still on floppies

1. Of course not, I was just pointing out that it's not a prohibitively difficult task even if there isn't something like that out there already.

2. Yes, they'd have to copy data from the floppies to the USB to do that.


The fact that it can be done by someone somewhere does not make it cost-effective.

You're also assuming that bespoke software written for storage and use on a floppy can just transfer onto a USB as-is and face zero problems.
 
Skyfrog
2023-02-06 3:58:08 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
aerojockey [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 4:22:08 AM  

qorkfiend: The fact that it can be done by someone somewhere does not make it cost-effective.


It's not entirely about cost, risk is an issue as well.  Clunky old hardware that's proprietary and obscure is at risk of total loss: something goes wrong and you can not recover.  It makes sense to spend money to modernize a system that can't be serviced.  Or, if it's relatively standardized, then there's a good chance there's an off-the-shelf solution.  If it's in between, not standard but still serviceable, then it's doable to get a custom solution to at least streamline its clunky parts like goddamn floppy storage.

But come on, this entire reluctance here is silly.  It's nothing but a bunch of management FUD that's permeated into the public thinking.  There is almost no downside in the long run to upgrade systems that old, at least enough to reasonably interface it to the modern world.

Forget about swapping the floppy disk for something more accessible.  I say it would be a no-brainer to get a modern computer and run the software on an emulator.  (Again, because this is easily cost-effective for common standard hardware, and a substantial risk reduction for proprietary obscure hardware.)  Any hardware interfacing involved can be adapted rather easily.  Even if the internal hardware and software architectures are obscure, the external interfaces almost never are (you know, because they're interfaces).
 
thecactusman17 [TotalFark]
2023-02-06 4:28:23 AM  

qorkfiend: aerojockey: qorkfiend: 1) I don't think they're interested in adding a "hobbyist breadboard" to their city transit control system

2) swapping floppies for USB doesn't help if the necessary software is still on floppies

1. Of course not, I was just pointing out that it's not a prohibitively difficult task even if there isn't something like that out there already.

2. Yes, they'd have to copy data from the floppies to the USB to do that.

The fact that it can be done by someone somewhere does not make it cost-effective.

You're also assuming that bespoke software written for storage and use on a floppy can just transfer onto a USB as-is and face zero problems.


This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. In the past, transit systems like this ordered all of these things bespoke. It's custom computer hardware and software in the trains and on the tracks for every system. Updating the drives to USB  and flash memory by itself is relatively easy, but making it actually compatible with other equipment that has strict requirements for voltage, frequency etc and has been repeatedly modified to keep legacy 1970s systems working for 50 years across several thousand miles worth of track equipment and ancient electronic wiring is not cheap and is not something you can fix with an out of the box solution.
 
amigafin [BareFark]
2023-02-06 7:40:07 AM  
Good thing its not MAG-LEV or it would erase them all.
 
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