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(Guardian)   Passports to become a thing of the past as shift to biometrics is considered. Brits urged to paint their faces blue instead   (theguardian.com) divider line
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    More: Cool, Netherlands, Passport, Home Office, New Zealand, European Union, India, Finland, Friction  
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577 clicks; posted to STEM » on 04 Feb 2023 at 7:45 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



47 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
Uranus [TotalFark]
2023-02-04 3:43:33 AM  
We take them for granted, but the passport is barely 100 years old. Before that, you could go wherever your will would take you.
 
MrBallou [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-04 4:27:28 AM  
"I'd like to see a world of completely frictionless borders where you don't really need a passport."

Funny, they say that and mean even stricter scrutiny, whereas I say that and mean no scrutiny at all.

I think we lost it when "freedom" started to mean something besides freedom.
 
Swiss Colony
2023-02-04 8:10:04 AM  
Schengen area has frictionless boarders. UK never wanted to be part of that.
 
FlashHarry [TotalFark]
2023-02-04 8:13:18 AM  
Woad-n't be the first time, amirite!
 
TheMysteriousStranger
2023-02-04 8:33:34 AM  
It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.
 
LrdPhoenix
2023-02-04 8:48:23 AM  
I do believe this boy may be Brexiting himself.

Fark user imageView Full Size


Oh, great, now it's an advanced case of Brexit.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
Carter Pewterschmidt [TotalFark]
2023-02-04 9:11:09 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.


I have three passports. How would facial recognition know which passport to use? Entering some countries on one passport can give me very different rights to using a different one.
 
Someone Else's Alt [TotalFark]
2023-02-04 9:12:55 AM  
The Brits didn't do blue, nor did the Scotts. Highlander was full of shiat yo.

The Pict people of what is now Northern Scottland from Fife to the Orkney's and were a fascinating people that held off the Romans and deserve better than Mel Gibson.
Fark user imageView Full Size

"They dye themselves with woad, which produces a blue color, and makes their appearance in battle more terrible. They wear long hair and shave every part of the body save the head and the upper lip." Julius Caesar
Fark user imageView Full Size

Clach Ard Pict Stone, Isle of Sky (Discovered holding open during a renovation of a cottage in 1880) Photo credit: Me! Took this last year while in Scotland on holiday with Mrs Alt.
 
batlock666
2023-02-04 9:14:50 AM  
i.guim.co.ukView Full Size
 
Fano
2023-02-04 9:21:07 AM  

Uranus: We take them for granted, but the passport is barely 100 years old. Before that, you could go wherever your will would take you.


Well, by the 1500s you had to have letters of permission from whatever Dukedom/Barony/Prefecture you were going to in a system that I'm sure was very simple, streamlined and easy to do.
 
I'm Mr. Meeseeks!
2023-02-04 9:37:10 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

I have three passports. How would facial recognition know which passport to use? Entering some countries on one passport can give me very different rights to using a different one.


Just like Netflix users on an account.Walk up to the biometric scanner, three passport profiles pop up, the computer asks which one are you using, and you strole on through.


What would be really futuristic is if each of your passports were linked via modeling look as you walked through the bionetrics:

Blue Steel for UK passport and of course,

Magnum for the US.

Dont sneeze though, that gets you deported to North Korea.
 
BretMavrik [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-04 9:58:04 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.


There's no way you could go 100% virtual in the foreseeable future, but you could go with some sort of physical card+chip. The current booklet format is rapidly becoming more of a hassle than it's worth (I have to carry two because of ten-year visas that haven't carried over to my newer one), and the nostalgia value is diminishing because many countries don't bother with stamps anymore. And you'd need something a little more consistently reliable than assuming everyone has all the proper and updated smartphone apps, their battery didn't die five minutes before screening, etc.

So it would be nice to just carry one card that could carry my passport info, all my current visas, my Global Entry/Pre-Check status, my APEC Business status, etc. In the meantime, I'm printing out a lot of QR codes on paper as a hedge against the aforementioned app/smartphone issues... not sure how that's supposed to improve things.

Of course, the trick would be to agree on an international standard that wasn't subject to death by a thousand cuts. For every valid component (APEC, diplomat, vaccination record, etc.) you'd have countries pushing for dozens of dubious components (US no-fly or "deadbeat dad" list, Chinese "you didn't show up at the patriotic rally in Fuzhou last week" list, etc.).

/TL;DR... we need some sort of Fifth Element multipass without the Chris Tucker factor.
 
Bukharin
2023-02-04 10:14:29 AM  
external-content.duckduckgo.comView Full Size
 
thornhill
2023-02-04 10:16:39 AM  

BretMavrik: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

There's no way you could go 100% virtual in the foreseeable future, but you could go with some sort of physical card+chip. The current booklet format is rapidly becoming more of a hassle than it's worth (I have to carry two because of ten-year visas that haven't carried over to my newer one), and the nostalgia value is diminishing because many countries don't bother with stamps anymore. And you'd need something a little more consistently reliable than assuming everyone has all the proper and updated smartphone apps, their battery didn't die five minutes before screening, etc.

So it would be nice to just carry one card that could carry my passport info, all my current visas, my Global Entry/Pre-Check status, my APEC Business status, etc. In the meantime, I'm printing out a lot of QR codes on paper as a hedge against the aforementioned app/smartphone issues... not sure how that's supposed to improve things.

Of course, the trick would be to agree on an international standard that wasn't subject to death by a thousand cuts. For every valid component (APEC, diplomat, vaccination record, etc.) you'd have countries pushing for dozens of dubious components (US no-fly or "deadbeat dad" list, Chinese "you didn't show up at the patriotic rally in Fuzhou last week" list, etc.).

/TL;DR... we need some sort of Fifth Element multipass without the Chris Tucker factor.


While Western countries may be ready to go paperless, many countries outside of the West still put all kinds of crap into your passport book when you enter and leave, even if you don't need a visa. They also like the power play of taking your passport to a back room to examine it for 10 minutes. I've done a fair amount of travel in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia; there's a lot of "passport theater" at entry/exit checkpoints where agents clearly get delight from making Americans feel anxious.
 
BretMavrik [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-04 10:27:57 AM  
thornhill: ...

While Western countries may be ready to go paperless, many countries outside of the West still put all kinds of crap into your passport book when you enter and leave, even if you don't need a visa. They also like the power play of taking your passport to a back room to examine it for 10 minutes. I've done a fair amount of travel in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia; there's a lot of "passport theater" at entry/exit checkpoints where agents clearly get delight from making Americans feel anxious.

Same here, hence my "death by a thousand cuts" comment. Brazilian reciprocity, Indonesian SKJ permits, etc. And the US is not exempt; my colleagues tell me about shady shiat they get from US immigration officials all the time.

The technology exists, the trick is how we choose to use it. And the first assumption should be that technology can't solve systemic or process problems. It's just as likely to make them worse.
 
Dinjiin [BareFark]
2023-02-04 11:05:21 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.


Or significant plastic surgery.
 
dustman81
2023-02-04 11:11:53 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

I have three passports. How would facial recognition know which passport to use? Entering some countries on one passport can give me very different rights to using a different one.


Physical passports aren't going away any time soon. Besides identifying yourself at a country's border, they are the gold standard of identity documents. For instance, when I have to fill out the paperwork after being hired, my passport checks all the boxes for proof of work eligibility and identification.

Also, countries attach their visas to passports. How would that work if passports no longer existed? If someone is in a country on a work visa, how would they show that visa to their employer, who wouldn't have access to the databases that immigration uses.
 
dustman81
2023-02-04 11:13:43 AM  

BretMavrik: And the US is not exempt; my colleagues tell me about shady shiat they get from US immigration officials all the time.


US CPB: They treat everyone like scum equally
 
groverpm
2023-02-04 11:40:55 AM  

Someone Else's Alt: The Brits didn't do blue, nor did the Scotts. Highlander was full of shiat yo.

The Pict people of what is now Northern Scottland from Fife to the Orkney's and were a fascinating people that held off the Romans and deserve better than Mel Gibson.
[Fark user image 600x845]
"They dye themselves with woad, which produces a blue color, and makes their appearance in battle more terrible. They wear long hair and shave every part of the body save the head and the upper lip." Julius Caesar
[Fark user image 676x1500]
Clach Ard Pict Stone, Isle of Sky (Discovered holding open during a renovation of a cottage in 1880) Photo credit: Me! Took this last year while in Scotland on holiday with Mrs Alt.


B...bu...but Mel Gibson in his totally accurate Brave Heart...

/the blue in the headline refers to the brexit passports not the predilections of Picts
//it would effectively be blackface
 
groverpm
2023-02-04 11:46:03 AM  
Given the racist algorithms used in facial recognition, this will effectively create a two-tier system where whites are automatically recognised but anyone darker than a croissant will be forced to carry the paper version. Still, might be amusing to see all the sunburnt Brits being rejected at the gates.
 
chitownmike
2023-02-04 11:54:15 AM  

BretMavrik: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

There's no way you could go 100% virtual in the foreseeable future, but you could go with some sort of physical card+chip. The current booklet format is rapidly becoming more of a hassle than it's worth (I have to carry two because of ten-year visas that haven't carried over to my newer one), and the nostalgia value is diminishing because many countries don't bother with stamps anymore. And you'd need something a little more consistently reliable than assuming everyone has all the proper and updated smartphone apps, their battery didn't die five minutes before screening, etc.

So it would be nice to just carry one card that could carry my passport info, all my current visas, my Global Entry/Pre-Check status, my APEC Business status, etc. In the meantime, I'm printing out a lot of QR codes on paper as a hedge against the aforementioned app/smartphone issues... not sure how that's supposed to improve things.

Of course, the trick would be to agree on an international standard that wasn't subject to death by a thousand cuts. For every valid component (APEC, diplomat, vaccination record, etc.) you'd have countries pushing for dozens of dubious components (US no-fly or "deadbeat dad" list, Chinese "you didn't show up at the patriotic rally in Fuzhou last week" list, etc.).

/TL;DR... we need some sort of Fifth Element multipass without the Chris Tucker factor.


if only there were such a thing
 
chitownmike
2023-02-04 11:56:48 AM  

Dinjiin: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

Or significant plastic surgery.


Plus doppelgangers!
 
Gordon Bennett [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-04 11:58:51 AM  

dustman81: BretMavrik: And the US is not exempt; my colleagues tell me about shady shiat they get from US immigration officials all the time.

US CPB: They treat everyone like scum equally


Entering the US is easy if you have a US passport. Otherwise they'll make your life hell.
 
SomeAmerican
2023-02-04 11:59:29 AM  
Passports a thing of the past?  Not anytime soon.

Here's what I can believe... that for advanced countries like the US, the "returning residents" line in customs will no longer need passports, instead using biometric data on file to verify your identity.

But the US won't have biometric data for non-residents, so people from other countries will need their passports.  And US citizens going to foreign countries will need need their passport, as the foreign country won't have their biometrics on file.

Select countries might create a electronic biometric verification program... US systems asking trusted French systems hey is this guy who he says it is, etc.  But the idea of the whole world moving to that, well that will take quite a while to happen.

So paper passports will continue to exist for the foreseeable future.
 
Mad-n-FL
2023-02-04 12:04:16 PM  

batlock666: [i.guim.co.uk image 460x276]


She could easily kill me, while I was blinded by science.

/s
 
Fark_Guy_Rob
2023-02-04 12:07:09 PM  

SomeAmerican: Passports a thing of the past?  Not anytime soon.

Here's what I can believe... that for advanced countries like the US, the "returning residents" line in customs will no longer need passports, instead using biometric data on file to verify your identity.

But the US won't have biometric data for non-residents, so people from other countries will need their passports.  And US citizens going to foreign countries will need need their passport, as the foreign country won't have their biometrics on file.

Select countries might create a electronic biometric verification program... US systems asking trusted French systems hey is this guy who he says it is, etc.  But the idea of the whole world moving to that, well that will take quite a while to happen.

So paper passports will continue to exist for the foreseeable future.


Also, expect to pay extrabtobuse the faster automated biometric scanners. Otherwise wait in line with the unwashed masses.
 
thornhill
2023-02-04 12:13:19 PM  

dustman81: Carter Pewterschmidt: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

I have three passports. How would facial recognition know which passport to use? Entering some countries on one passport can give me very different rights to using a different one.

Physical passports aren't going away any time soon. Besides identifying yourself at a country's border, they are the gold standard of identity documents. For instance, when I have to fill out the paperwork after being hired, my passport checks all the boxes for proof of work eligibility and identification.

Also, countries attach their visas to passports. How would that work if passports no longer existed? If someone is in a country on a work visa, how would they show that visa to their employer, who wouldn't have access to the databases that immigration uses.


Passports are just one of several forms of ID that are used to verify identity. And fewer than half of Americans have them - so if any employer requires a passport for the hiring process, it would have to be for a highly specialized job where you must have one.

A lot of countries do electronic visas that you complete online and nothing goes in your passport book except the usual entry/exit stamp. The physical visas where you have to go to the consulate/embassy, give them your passport, and get it back days or weeks later is simply theater. China, for example, does this, and they obviously have the technology and resources to have an electronic process (especially for people who are just tourists.) Subjecting people to their bureaucratic process is obviously a power move.
 
thornhill
2023-02-04 12:27:36 PM  

SomeAmerican: Passports a thing of the past?  Not anytime soon.

Here's what I can believe... that for advanced countries like the US, the "returning residents" line in customs will no longer need passports, instead using biometric data on file to verify your identity.

But the US won't have biometric data for non-residents, so people from other countries will need their passports.  And US citizens going to foreign countries will need need their passport, as the foreign country won't have their biometrics on file.

Select countries might create a electronic biometric verification program... US systems asking trusted French systems hey is this guy who he says it is, etc.  But the idea of the whole world moving to that, well that will take quite a while to happen.

So paper passports will continue to exist for the foreseeable future.


Eh, I think the technology is there. For a while now, some airlines/airports have been using facial recognition to verify your passport ID before boarding an international flight - they don't check your physical passport nor ticket, they just scan your face. And Global Entry has long essentially been this for Americans returning to the US (and they eliminated the finger scan and rely just on facial recognition).

As I've previously said, countries like physical passports because it allows for "passport theater" - it's much easier to give visitors a hard time at entry/exit points when you have that physical prop.
 
common sense is an oxymoron [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-04 12:33:23 PM  

Someone Else's Alt: The Brits didn't do blue, nor did the Scotts. Highlander was full of shiat yo.

The Pict people of what is now Northern Scottland from Fife to the Orkney's and were a fascinating people that held off the Romans and deserve better than Mel Gibson.
[Fark user image 600x845]
"They dye themselves with woad, which produces a blue color, and makes their appearance in battle more terrible. They wear long hair and shave every part of the body save the head and the upper lip." Julius Caesar
[Fark user image 676x1500]
Clach Ard Pict Stone, Isle of Sky (Discovered holding open during a renovation of a cottage in 1880) Photo credit: Me! Took this last year while in Scotland on holiday with Mrs Alt.


Picts do it in the woad.
 
BretMavrik [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-04 1:15:17 PM  

chitownmike: BretMavrik: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

There's no way you could go 100% virtual in the foreseeable future, but you could go with some sort of physical card+chip. The current booklet format is rapidly becoming more of a hassle than it's worth (I have to carry two because of ten-year visas that haven't carried over to my newer one), and the nostalgia value is diminishing because many countries don't bother with stamps anymore. And you'd need something a little more consistently reliable than assuming everyone has all the proper and updated smartphone apps, their battery didn't die five minutes before screening, etc.

So it would be nice to just carry one card that could carry my passport info, all my current visas, my Global Entry/Pre-Check status, my APEC Business status, etc. In the meantime, I'm printing out a lot of QR codes on paper as a hedge against the aforementioned app/smartphone issues... not sure how that's supposed to improve things.

Of course, the trick would be to agree on an international standard that wasn't subject to death by a thousand cuts. For every valid component (APEC, diplomat, vaccination record, etc.) you'd have countries pushing for dozens of dubious components (US no-fly or "deadbeat dad" list, Chinese "you didn't show up at the patriotic rally in Fuzhou last week" list, etc.).

/TL;DR... we need some sort of Fifth Element multipass without the Chris Tucker factor.

if only there were such a thing


I've had one for god-knows-how-many years, but thank you for educating me. I had no idea that a US passport card would do all of those things, and not be limited to things like land and sea crossings to/from Canada and Mexico.
 
Izunbacol [recently expired TotalFark]
2023-02-04 1:55:03 PM  

thornhill: BretMavrik: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

There's no way you could go 100% virtual in the foreseeable future, but you could go with some sort of physical card+chip. The current booklet format is rapidly becoming more of a hassle than it's worth (I have to carry two because of ten-year visas that haven't carried over to my newer one), and the nostalgia value is diminishing because many countries don't bother with stamps anymore. And you'd need something a little more consistently reliable than assuming everyone has all the proper and updated smartphone apps, their battery didn't die five minutes before screening, etc.

So it would be nice to just carry one card that could carry my passport info, all my current visas, my Global Entry/Pre-Check status, my APEC Business status, etc. In the meantime, I'm printing out a lot of QR codes on paper as a hedge against the aforementioned app/smartphone issues... not sure how that's supposed to improve things.

Of course, the trick would be to agree on an international standard that wasn't subject to death by a thousand cuts. For every valid component (APEC, diplomat, vaccination record, etc.) you'd have countries pushing for dozens of dubious components (US no-fly or "deadbeat dad" list, Chinese "you didn't show up at the patriotic rally in Fuzhou last week" list, etc.).

/TL;DR... we need some sort of Fifth Element multipass without the Chris Tucker factor.

While Western countries may be ready to go paperless, many countries outside of the West still put all kinds of crap into your passport book when you enter and leave, even if you don't need a visa. They also like the power play of taking your passport to a back room to examine it for 10 minutes. I've done a fair amount of travel in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia; there's a lot of "passport theater" at entry/exit checkpoints where agents clearly get delight from making Americans feel anxious.


At this point, more and more documents are going to my iPhone's wallet. My DL is on there, my dental insurance card, my metro pass, and my credit/banking cards. When I go to a concert or festival, the tickets pop in there. When I book a flight, the boarding pass goes there.

Biometrics are built in. Just stick the passport and visa there* and be done with it.  This shiat has been around for years, and every phone in the last at least 5 years has it.

*(Or whatever the android equivalent is, which I'm sure is just the cue for the "anti-Apple" crowd to push the bridge of their glasses and say by "aaaaaakshuwally, Android had that feature already, and it's so much better on Android")
 
Carter Pewterschmidt [TotalFark]
2023-02-04 2:30:41 PM  

Izunbacol: *(Or whatever the android equivalent is, which I'm sure is just the cue for the "anti-Apple" crowd to push the bridge of their glasses and say by "aaaaaakshuwally, Android had that feature already, and it's so much better on Android")


Well my HTC phone did have NFC and contactless payments before the iPhone....

/In the UK the NHS app has our health records, vaccination record etc on it. I can scroll back through every appointment, test and treatment I have had, back to when I broke my arm in 1978.
 
mcreadyblue
2023-02-04 2:38:39 PM  

thornhill: BretMavrik: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

There's no way you could go 100% virtual in the foreseeable future, but you could go with some sort of physical card+chip. The current booklet format is rapidly becoming more of a hassle than it's worth (I have to carry two because of ten-year visas that haven't carried over to my newer one), and the nostalgia value is diminishing because many countries don't bother with stamps anymore. And you'd need something a little more consistently reliable than assuming everyone has all the proper and updated smartphone apps, their battery didn't die five minutes before screening, etc.

So it would be nice to just carry one card that could carry my passport info, all my current visas, my Global Entry/Pre-Check status, my APEC Business status, etc. In the meantime, I'm printing out a lot of QR codes on paper as a hedge against the aforementioned app/smartphone issues... not sure how that's supposed to improve things.

Of course, the trick would be to agree on an international standard that wasn't subject to death by a thousand cuts. For every valid component (APEC, diplomat, vaccination record, etc.) you'd have countries pushing for dozens of dubious components (US no-fly or "deadbeat dad" list, Chinese "you didn't show up at the patriotic rally in Fuzhou last week" list, etc.).

/TL;DR... we need some sort of Fifth Element multipass without the Chris Tucker factor.

While Western countries may be ready to go paperless, many countries outside of the West still put all kinds of crap into your passport book when you enter and leave, even if you don't need a visa. They also like the power play of taking your passport to a back room to examine it for 10 minutes. I've done a fair amount of travel in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia; there's a lot of "passport theater" at entry/exit checkpoints where agents clearly get delight from making Americans feel anxious.


And collect bribes. You forgot that part.
 
mcreadyblue
2023-02-04 2:39:37 PM  

Gordon Bennett: dustman81: BretMavrik: And the US is not exempt; my colleagues tell me about shady shiat they get from US immigration officials all the time.

US CPB: They treat everyone like scum equally

Entering the US is easy if you have a US passport. Otherwise they'll make your life hell.


FoxNews told me the US had open borders.
 
MikeyFuccon
2023-02-04 2:59:52 PM  
"I'd like to see a world of completely frictionless borders where you don't really need a passport. The technology already exists to support that."

Or governments could admit that restrictions on immigration don't make countries any safer, haven't been effective in propping up the wages of their countries' workers (instead of low-wage workers coming to the jobs, industries brought the jobs to low-wage countries) and have only genuinely benefitted  crime syndicates specializing in human trafficking.

I've abandoned much of the libertarian ideology of my youth. Not that part. Let free people cross borders freely. I'm old enough to remember when the Wall Street Journal agreed with me.

/Fark La Migra
 
thornhill
2023-02-04 3:00:09 PM  

mcreadyblue: thornhill: BretMavrik: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

There's no way you could go 100% virtual in the foreseeable future, but you could go with some sort of physical card+chip. The current booklet format is rapidly becoming more of a hassle than it's worth (I have to carry two because of ten-year visas that haven't carried over to my newer one), and the nostalgia value is diminishing because many countries don't bother with stamps anymore. And you'd need something a little more consistently reliable than assuming everyone has all the proper and updated smartphone apps, their battery didn't die five minutes before screening, etc.

So it would be nice to just carry one card that could carry my passport info, all my current visas, my Global Entry/Pre-Check status, my APEC Business status, etc. In the meantime, I'm printing out a lot of QR codes on paper as a hedge against the aforementioned app/smartphone issues... not sure how that's supposed to improve things.

Of course, the trick would be to agree on an international standard that wasn't subject to death by a thousand cuts. For every valid component (APEC, diplomat, vaccination record, etc.) you'd have countries pushing for dozens of dubious components (US no-fly or "deadbeat dad" list, Chinese "you didn't show up at the patriotic rally in Fuzhou last week" list, etc.).

/TL;DR... we need some sort of Fifth Element multipass without the Chris Tucker factor.

While Western countries may be ready to go paperless, many countries outside of the West still put all kinds of crap into your passport book when you enter and leave, even if you don't need a visa. They also like the power play of taking your passport to a back room to examine it for 10 minutes. I've done a fair amount of travel in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia; there's a lot of "passport theater" at entry/exit checkpoints where agents clearly get delight from making Americans feel anxious.

And collect bribes. You forgot that part.


That's true. I had my passport taken from me at a border crossing in Jordan by a soldier and had to pay a cash "fee" to get it back and then be able to move on to the actual check point.
 
Jim_Callahan
2023-02-04 6:05:10 PM  
That's... pretty unlikely.

Biometrics are still unreliable as fark, mostly for reasons related to the inherent nature of the process rather than any limitation of the technology involved.

This is why your bank doesn't take a thumbprint as identification and you can't complete a credit-card transaction with a retinal scan.  Trust me, if the tech had anywhere in the ballpark of an acceptable count of false positives and false negatives they'd have been all over that ages ago.

There is a reason why these things are purely a novelty item to make personal possessions you can pretty easily gain access to by other methods feel fancier so you'll pay the maker a lot more money for no additional effort: if your phone decides not to unlock with your fingerprint anymore because of some minor already-healed thumb injury you didn't even notice, you can put in tour actual password.  If that happens at a farking customs stop you're potentially going to spend however many days it takes an official background check to complete in prison, in the worst case where it happens after the plane already landed and they can't just tell you to fark off.  Best case, you still miss your flight.

// Might physical passports be replaced by something else, like you giving them the info to call up your ID digitally?  Sure.  Biometrics, though, nope.  And you'll still need the physical chit of whatever kind on one end of any trip where digital retrieval of information from official databases isn't reliable regardless, which is like 50% of the globe.
 
dustman81
2023-02-04 6:48:40 PM  

Gordon Bennett: dustman81: BretMavrik: And the US is not exempt; my colleagues tell me about shady shiat they get from US immigration officials all the time.

US CPB: They treat everyone like scum equally

Entering the US is easy if you have a US passport. Otherwise they'll make your life hell.


I do have a US passport. I've had CBP agents ask what country I'm a citizen of, while they were holding my US passport in their hand. Intelligence is not a requirement to be hired by CPB.
 
dustman81
2023-02-04 6:57:18 PM  

thornhill: dustman81: Carter Pewterschmidt: TheMysteriousStranger: It would not be the death of the passport, but only the passport that you carry. It will still exist virtually.

/Though  biometrics still need some work before you can merely walk by as face recognition is still very buggy and they still need to deal with the existence of twins.

I have three passports. How would facial recognition know which passport to use? Entering some countries on one passport can give me very different rights to using a different one.

Physical passports aren't going away any time soon. Besides identifying yourself at a country's border, they are the gold standard of identity documents. For instance, when I have to fill out the paperwork after being hired, my passport checks all the boxes for proof of work eligibility and identification.

Also, countries attach their visas to passports. How would that work if passports no longer existed? If someone is in a country on a work visa, how would they show that visa to their employer, who wouldn't have access to the databases that immigration uses.

Passports are just one of several forms of ID that are used to verify identity. And fewer than half of Americans have them - so if any employer requires a passport for the hiring process, it would have to be for a highly specialized job where you must have one.

A lot of countries do electronic visas that you complete online and nothing goes in your passport book except the usual entry/exit stamp. The physical visas where you have to go to the consulate/embassy, give them your passport, and get it back days or weeks later is simply theater. China, for example, does this, and they obviously have the technology and resources to have an electronic process (especially for people who are just tourists.) Subjecting people to their bureaucratic process is obviously a power move.


I was referring to the I-9 form. A US passport (or passport card) is a list 'A' document, meaning it meets all requirements for proving work eligibility and identity. I don't even have to show my Social Security card. If you don't have a list 'A' document, you have to gather list 'B' and 'C' documents, which includes a US birth certificate, driver's license. and Social Security card.

Electronic visas are still tied to your passport, you just don't have a physical visa in your passport. Instead of the immigration agent flipping through your passport, they just enter in your passport info and pull up your visa.
 
chitownmike
2023-02-04 7:38:58 PM  

dustman81: Gordon Bennett: dustman81: BretMavrik: And the US is not exempt; my colleagues tell me about shady shiat they get from US immigration officials all the time.

US CPB: They treat everyone like scum equally

Entering the US is easy if you have a US passport. Otherwise they'll make your life hell.

I do have a US passport. I've had CBP agents ask what country I'm a citizen of, while they were holding my US passport in their hand. Intelligence is not a requirement to be hired by CPB.


They aren't asking because they don't know  they're asking you to confirm what they know
 
BarryJV [BareFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-04 7:45:12 PM  

Uranus: We take them for granted, but the passport is barely 100 years old. Before that, you could go wherever your will would take you.


Your money, you could go wherever your money would take you.

Not many people had the money.
 
cSquids
2023-02-04 9:20:33 PM  
I think this ignores some of the secondary uses of passports as well.  Just try getting a hotel room without one, prove you are of legal age to drink.  A random bar in the US isn't going to get access to the government databases (they better not anyway).
 
bisi
2023-02-05 5:24:29 AM  
It's wild how it took a mere two decades to go from opposing surveillance states to "A globally shared database containing the biometric profile of every person on earth - but I don't have to carry around a little booklet with a slightly inconvenient form factor? Sign me up!"
 
Carter Pewterschmidt [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 11:09:25 AM  

bisi: It's wild how it took a mere two decades to go from opposing surveillance states to "A globally shared database containing the biometric profile of every person on earth - but I don't have to carry around a little booklet with a slightly inconvenient form factor? Sign me up!"


Yep, for this system to work as suggested every country would have to hand over all the biometric data and details of every one of their passport-holding citizens to every other country on earth. Right now they only get that data if and when you choose to visit that country and hand over your passport.
 
Fano
2023-02-05 11:50:42 AM  

chitownmike: dustman81: Gordon Bennett: dustman81: BretMavrik: And the US is not exempt; my colleagues tell me about shady shiat they get from US immigration officials all the time.

US CPB: They treat everyone like scum equally

Entering the US is easy if you have a US passport. Otherwise they'll make your life hell.

I do have a US passport. I've had CBP agents ask what country I'm a citizen of, while they were holding my US passport in their hand. Intelligence is not a requirement to be hired by CPB.

They aren't asking because they don't know  they're asking you to confirm what they know


I'm assuming they catch nervous folks from time to time who can't keep their lie straight.
 
bisi
2023-02-05 12:15:10 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: bisi: It's wild how it took a mere two decades to go from opposing surveillance states to "A globally shared database containing the biometric profile of every person on earth - but I don't have to carry around a little booklet with a slightly inconvenient form factor? Sign me up!"

Yep, for this system to work as suggested every country would have to hand over all the biometric data and details of every one of their passport-holding citizens to every other country on earth. Right now they only get that data if and when you choose to visit that country and hand over your passport.


To be fair, that's not the part I take the most issue with.
The fingerprints and the automatic customs with the facial recognition is more than enough techno-dystopia for me.
 
Carter Pewterschmidt [TotalFark]
2023-02-05 12:42:38 PM  

bisi: To be fair, that's not the part I take the most issue with.
The fingerprints and the automatic customs with the facial recognition is more than enough techno-dystopia for me.


But with the current system a country won't have your biometrics until and unless you give them to them by giving them your passport and entering their country. The proposed system would have your country hand over your data to every other country on earth whether you ever wanted to go there or not.
Facial recognition has huge potential implications, but just handing over your data pre-emptively makes it far worse.

/Also, consider facial recognition technology and how many times you have been captured on a Ring video doorbell. Someone can build up a list of addresses you have visited.
 
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