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(Popular Mechanics)   If Tom Cruise's plane reaching Mach 10 in "Maverick" seemed juusst a touch unrealistic to you, that's probably because the fastest plane we have in development is TRYING to reach Mach 5   (popularmechanics.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Engine, Turbojet, Hypersonic speed, Rocket, Atmosphere of Earth, Ramjet, Late last year, Technology  
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754 clicks; posted to STEM » on 01 Feb 2023 at 10:39 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2023-02-01 10:47:13 AM  
The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.
 
2023-02-01 11:05:52 AM  

Warthog: The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.


10Gs would black the pilot out in a few seconds.  The US AF isn't testing pilot-killing missiles.
 
2023-02-01 11:07:39 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2023-02-01 11:10:57 AM  

phalamir: 10Gs would black the pilot out in a few seconds


Mach 10, not 10 Gs.
 
2023-02-01 11:12:08 AM  

phalamir: Warthog: The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.

10Gs would black the pilot out in a few seconds.  The US AF isn't testing pilot-killing missiles.


How does straight line speed equate to G forces?  It's the acceleration and deceleration that get you.  The space shuttle in orbit is moving way faster than Mach 10.  This aircraft would essentially be the space shuttle in a lower orbit.
 
2023-02-01 11:13:27 AM  
Oh, Subby... you are not going to want to hear this but, I have to tell you something about, well, any fictional work, ever...
 
2023-02-01 11:15:52 AM  

Warthog: phalamir: Warthog: The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.

10Gs would black the pilot out in a few seconds.  The US AF isn't testing pilot-killing missiles.

How does straight line speed equate to G forces?  It's the acceleration and deceleration that get you.  The space shuttle in orbit is moving way faster than Mach 10.  This aircraft would essentially be the space shuttle in a lower orbit.


sprott.physics.wisc.eduView Full Size


The real gains are when you get in the shuttle (yes I realize the irony of posting this picture today)
 
2023-02-01 11:16:25 AM  
The X-43 went in excess of mach 9.
 
2023-02-01 11:26:14 AM  

phalamir: Warthog: The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.

10Gs would black the pilot out in a few seconds.  The US AF isn't testing pilot-killing missiles.


That's acceleration, genius, presumably you'd design a high altitude plane that wouldn't require 10Gs of acceleration to stay airborne.  Anyway, that "design" would basically be a brick.
 
2023-02-01 11:29:01 AM  

phalamir: Warthog: The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.

10Gs would black the pilot out in a few seconds.  The US AF isn't testing pilot-killing missiles.


Mach 10 and 10Gs are not the same thing.
 
2023-02-01 11:33:20 AM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: The X-43 went in excess of mach 9.



It also didn't have anyone inside it.
 
2023-02-01 11:33:54 AM  
To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...
 
2023-02-01 11:35:11 AM  
Star Trek says that warp 10 is not possible. Not possible!
What?
 
2023-02-01 11:36:54 AM  

akallen404: the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice


Didn't you watch the movie? It was one line of dialog about how GPS jamming meant the F-35 couldn't be used. That's why.

Conveniently, this was because there are no 2-seat versions of the F-35 and the movie makers had to use 2-seat F-18s so they could put the actors in the back seat and use camera footage to pretend they were flying the planes.

The USA would use the B-2 and drop some serious bunker-busting bombs to destroy that target. We'd do it from 30,000 feet with smart bombs.
 
2023-02-01 11:37:17 AM  

akallen404: To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...


Maverick makes way more sense in a world where drones and cruise missiles don't exist.

Also it's a long way to get to a direct rip off of the Star Wars Episode 4 ending
 
2023-02-01 11:39:21 AM  
And yet I have this funny feeling that isn't the least believable thing about Maverick.
 
2023-02-01 11:40:08 AM  
Is the Mach number a sea-level speed, or is it altitude/density dependent?
 
2023-02-01 11:42:28 AM  
How did they fit it in a space shuttle?
 
jbc [TotalFark]
2023-02-01 11:44:13 AM  

FarkingChas: Star Trek says that warp 10 is not possible. Not possible!
What?


There are two space salamanders who want a word with you.
 
2023-02-01 11:47:20 AM  

phalamir: Warthog: The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.

10Gs would black the pilot out in a few seconds.  The US AF isn't testing pilot-killing missiles.


Counterpoint: The F-104.
 
2023-02-01 11:48:21 AM  

DoBeDoBeDo: Also it's a long way to get to a direct rip off of the Star Wars Episode 4 ending


Top Gun: Maverick Pitch Meeting
Youtube vsojiWVVj00
 
2023-02-01 11:50:27 AM  

akallen404: To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...


The combat performance of Russia's 5th gen fighters in Ukraine made a lot of that movie age badly very quickly, but that's not the movie's fault, more our intel agencies.  There is also the plothole of using the Tomahawks to take out the airfield when they would have been PERFECT for that particular mission (GPS jammers don't work on TERCOM systems and we keep a good supply of older missiles  that use Tercom rather than GPS in the inventory for that reason
 
2023-02-01 11:51:21 AM  

dionysusaur: Is the Mach number a sea-level speed, or is it altitude/density dependent?


definitely altitude dependent. 
https://e6bx.com/mach-speed/
 
2023-02-01 11:53:07 AM  

DoBeDoBeDo: akallen404: To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...

Maverick makes way more sense in a world where drones and cruise missiles don't exist.

Also it's a long way to get to a direct rip off of the Star Wars Episode 4 ending


and Ironucally cruise missile pay a key role in the movie (though you'd need just one or two equipped with the "submunitions" package to cripplie and irbase, not 100, it's literally the mission they were designed for)
 
2023-02-01 11:57:01 AM  

DoBeDoBeDo: akallen404: To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...

Maverick makes way more sense in a world where drones and cruise missiles don't exist.

Also it's a long way to get to a direct rip off of the Star Wars Episode 4 ending


Except they launched, like, 60 cruise missiles to take out the airfield guarding the uranium plant thing. That and the whole point of the Mach 10 test was Maverick trying to get in one last really good flight before the Navy diverted his funding to drones anyway.

Just seems like none of the things that exist in the real world work the same way they do in the Maverick world.
 
2023-02-01 11:57:46 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2023-02-01 11:58:39 AM  
Not if you can't control your Thetans.
 
2023-02-01 12:01:14 PM  

dionysusaur: Is the Mach number a sea-level speed, or is it altitude/density dependent?


Mach number is the ratio of local flow velocity around the aircraft to the local speed of sound - so yes, density and pressure dependent (both of with change with altitude, so altitude dependent as well.)
 
2023-02-01 12:01:16 PM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: The X-43 went in excess of mach 9.


With enough altitude, high speeds become much easier to achieve, since the skin of the plane become less likely to melt off in the thin air. The unmanned X-43 reached mach 9.64 (about 6400 mph) after a 10-second scramjet boost, at an altitude of 100,000 feet. It still got really hot, even with its special insulating exterior surfaces and water-cooled leading edges. And scramjets only work above about mach 4.5, so they needed a Boeing Stratofortress to get it up to altitude, and a rocket booster to get it moving fast enough for its engine to start working.

I think the fastest practical, manned aircraft (that we know of) is still the SR-71 Blackbird.
 
2023-02-01 12:02:49 PM  

Magorn: akallen404: To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...

The combat performance of Russia's 5th gen fighters in Ukraine made a lot of that movie age badly very quickly


From what I've heard, they haven't been letting their 5th Gen fighters anywhere NEAR Ukraine. Which is damn shame, because I'm VERY curious about whether or not they would actually live up to the hype.

But again: this is a fictional world where the Soviet Union once tried to attack an aircraft carrier with Excoet missiles fired from (reverse engineered?) T-38s. It's probably the same weird fictional universe as "Firefox" and "Iron Eagle."
 
2023-02-01 12:40:41 PM  

Warthog: The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.


Exactly.  Who knows what's going on in the black world.  Mach 10 isn't out of the question for scramjets.

akallen404: To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...


They got so much wrong with that mission.  Why weren't those SAM batteries hiat by Tomahawks or Mavericks a few seconds after things went loud?  Sneak in through the canyon, yes, but the defenses should have been down before they were over the target.  And you can't drop from as low as they did--your bomb isn't going to arm (and that's a good thing, if it did go off it would blow you out of the sky.)  And why wasn't the rest of the carrier's air wing out there just below the horizon?

I won't fault them for not asking France, though--Europe has shown considerable reluctance to do anything about radical Islam.  They would prefer to keep their heads down to keep the terrorists from hitting them.  And I think the problem was they needed to operate from a carrier due to a lack of air bases in the area.  I also think the Tomahawk could do the mission even without GPS--it's got optical image matching also.  Stunts like flying through the pedestrian door of your target can't be done by GPS.

DoBeDoBeDo: Maverick makes way more sense in a world where drones and cruise missiles don't exist.


I think the idea was that the unmanned stuff couldn't be used because GPS was jammed.  Just because it's the primary guidance doesn't mean it's the only option!

dionysusaur: Is the Mach number a sea-level speed, or is it altitude/density dependent?


Depends on the air.

snowjack: With enough altitude, high speeds become much easier to achieve, since the skin of the plane become less likely to melt off in the thin air. The unmanned X-43 reached mach 9.64 (about 6400 mph) after a 10-second scramjet boost, at an altitude of 100,000 feet. It still got really hot, even with its special insulating exterior surfaces and water-cooled leading edges. And scramjets only work above about mach 4.5, so they needed a Boeing Stratofortress to get it up to altitude, and a rocket booster to get it moving fast enough for its engine to start working.


Yeah--I don't consider a mach 10 plane out of the question--but it's going to be very, very high up to do that kind of speed.
 
2023-02-01 12:44:17 PM  

akallen404: Magorn: akallen404: To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...

The combat performance of Russia's 5th gen fighters in Ukraine made a lot of that movie age badly very quickly

From what I've heard, they haven't been letting their 5th Gen fighters anywhere NEAR Ukraine. Which is damn shame, because I'm VERY curious about whether or not they would actually live up to the hype.

But again: this is a fictional world where the Soviet Union once tried to attack an aircraft carrier with Excoet missiles fired from (reverse engineered?) T-38s. It's probably the same weird fictional universe as "Firefox" and "Iron Eagle."


You answered your own question regarding Russia's 5th Gen aircraft.  The skies would.be swarming with them if they were worth a pint of piss.

When are you folks going to wise up and realize Russia is that loud mouth kid who always talked loudly about how he was going to pound you if you didn't step in line.  And then one day someone got tired of hearing that and called him out.  We've been watching this happening in Ukraine for almost one year.  I seem to remember a lot of armchair warriors claiming Russia was going to own Ukraine in fewer than 40 days, so Ukraine would have been better off to just "let it happen".  What we got instead is a bumbling mess and a bunch of farmers stealing tanks.
 
2023-02-01 12:53:35 PM  
Uh, this was manned and went faster than Mach 5...

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2023-02-01 12:56:23 PM  
Yeah, Maverick is unrealistic.  It's a movie.  The most beloved movie in our culture features planet-killing space stations, yet the hero and the big baddy fight with melee weapons.
 
2023-02-01 1:27:16 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: dionysusaur: Is the Mach number a sea-level speed, or is it altitude/density dependent?

Mach number is the ratio of local flow velocity around the aircraft to the local speed of sound - so yes, density and pressure dependent (both of with change with altitude, so altitude dependent as well.)


That's true, but articles about something moving at "Mach whatever" often use the sea-level value as a conversion factor for a speed originally expressed in km/h or other units. Particularly for stuff approaching orbital velocities.
 
2023-02-01 1:34:05 PM  

FLMountainMan: The most beloved movie in our culture features planet-killing space stations, yet the hero and the big baddy fight with melee weapons.


an elegant weapon for a more civilized age
 
2023-02-01 2:00:59 PM  

iamskibibitz: Uh, this was manned and went faster than Mach 5...

[Fark user image 458x298]


Also rocket powered. This is for air-breathing engines.
 
2023-02-01 2:07:50 PM  

akallen404: DoBeDoBeDo: akallen404: To be fair, it's the same movie that implies that Iran has access to Su-57s but the US Navy also doesn't have enough enough 5th Gen fighters to pull off a deep penetration strike on short notice and ALSO isn't on good enough terms with NATO to ask France to do it (the Rafale being literally built for the kind of mission they were trying to pull off in the movie).

So it's more of a "Not too distant future" alternate history scenario. Which, to be fair, the first one ALSO kind of was...

Maverick makes way more sense in a world where drones and cruise missiles don't exist.

Also it's a long way to get to a direct rip off of the Star Wars Episode 4 ending

Except they launched, like, 60 cruise missiles to take out the airfield guarding the uranium plant thing. That and the whole point of the Mach 10 test was Maverick trying to get in one last really good flight before the Navy diverted his funding to drones anyway.

Just seems like none of the things that exist in the real world work the same way they do in the Maverick world.


Maverick was a fun movie to turn your brain off to and enjoy. Think about how it would work in the real world and it falls apart.  That target would be ideal for Prompt Global Strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prompt_Global_Strike (ICBM with conventional warhead although this target could probably justify a low yield nuke to make sure the target is taken out).  B2 strike package flying from the US to wherever the fictional target was (Iran) would be the conventional approach to the target with the navy in support/distraction strikes.

At the very least you don't go in with a 4 plane package for such an important target, this is probably multiple carrier strike groups with air force support or if you don't have time to position the assets, you use the entire carrier air wings for the mission.  Tomahawk the airfield, SAM batteries, radar, command and control assets, power grid and have a interceptor groups flying high cover for the strike package.  When you fire 60 tomahawks and bomb and nuclear facility, subtlety and avoiding an act of war goes out the window.  Hit it hard, hit it fast, and protect your pilots with overwhelming force.

Even Operation Opera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera  (Israeli strike on Iraq reactor in 1980) used 8 strike aircraft with 6 providing air cover.
 
2023-02-01 2:13:09 PM  
If humans were not so damn squishy!
 
2023-02-01 2:14:38 PM  

dionysusaur: Is the Mach number a sea-level speed, or is it altitude/density dependent?


It's a dimensionless quantity. Mach 1 is the speed of sound through a fluid, so it depends on  the temperature of the surrounding gas.
 
2023-02-01 2:17:20 PM  

iamskibibitz: Uh, this was manned and went faster than Mach 5...

[Fark user image image 458x298]


That's not an air-breathing aircraft.
 
2023-02-01 2:17:45 PM  
Loren:

DoBeDoBeDo: Maverick makes way more sense in a world where drones and cruise missiles don't exist.

I think the idea was that the unmanned stuff couldn't be used because GPS was jammed.  Just because it's the primary guidance doesn't mean it's the only option!


Right, that was kind of my point.  It makes more sense if they didn't exist rather than they exist but we have to jump through a bunch of hoops to act like they couldn't do this exact thing, quicker, safer and more effectively.

It's fiction, just set it 15 years in the future and say that the UN has banned all non-manned air platforms from performing attack functions, or something.  They already have a ban on transferring drones with a range of more than 300km, so that's actually something that MIGHT happen.
 
2023-02-01 2:32:20 PM  
Yeah, THAT was the part that was unrealistic.

That movie was dumb as shiat. And yet, I was extremely entertained throughout the whole film when I saw it opening weekend.

I think that is the magic of Tom Cruise: he takes absolute implausible nonsense (Maverick, Mission Impossible, Jack Reacher) and turns it into implausible nonsense you're really interested in seeing.  I don't understand how this works, but the box office proves that it does.
 
2023-02-01 3:13:43 PM  

Bovine Diarrhea Virus: Next you'll tell me Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't fight an alien in a Central American jungle.


BLASPHEMER! I'LL NOT HEAR OF THIS PROFANEMENT! STOP SPOUTING LIES!
 
2023-02-01 4:24:30 PM  

Bovine Diarrhea Virus: Next you'll tell me Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't fight an alien in a Central American jungle.


Of course he didn't fight an alien, don't be silly.  He fought a predator...
 
2023-02-01 4:41:02 PM  

FarkingChas: Star Trek says that warp 10 is not possible. Not possible!
What?


There were a couple Next Generation episodes where they went higher.
 
2023-02-01 4:56:02 PM  

Greymalkin: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: The X-43 went in excess of mach 9.


It also didn't have anyone inside it.


It also was accelerated by a rocket and then its scramjet ran for mere seconds.
 
2023-02-01 4:56:39 PM  

Loren: They got so much wrong with that mission.


Originally saw it in Imax and thought it was really fun, but I put in on the background while working recently and realized one of the biggest plotholes/unexplained things with the mission.  The 2:30 target time.  I think I assumed that was explained at some point but just missed it in the theaters, but no, the time limit is seemingly just there to add tension to the mission.

They try to address this by saying they have to get out of there fast because of the 5th generation fighters that will be alerted to them, but those fighters are only alerted once the tomahawks strike the airfield.
 
2023-02-01 5:02:40 PM  

iamskibibitz: Uh, this was manned and went faster than Mach 5...

[Fark user image 458x298]


ids.si.eduView Full Size


Came to post that beauty. 

I have a feeling that we are working on what are essentially SCRAMJet engine powered jets that do Mach 10, the problem is the air resistance so you can only really do it on the edge of space - really crimping their usefulness. 

nasa.govView Full Size


The X-43A is close to it, hitting 9.6 mach in testing, but it is unmanned currently.
 
2023-02-01 5:54:18 PM  

phalamir: Warthog: The fastest plane we will ADMIT to having in development, subby.

10Gs would black the pilot out in a few seconds.  The US AF isn't testing pilot-killing missiles.


We're not talking about acceleration. We're talking about speed. But, still no.
 
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