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(Alaska Public Media)   404 - Mine not found   (alaskapublic.org) divider line
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    More: Cool, Alaska, Iliamna Lake, Pebble Mine, Government, Bristol Bay, Salmon, History, Law  
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3947 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Feb 2023 at 6:41 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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Oneiros [OhFark]
2023-02-01 6:52:44 AM  
I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine
 
sinko swimo
2023-02-01 7:01:08 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
Denied
 
Vtimlin
2023-02-01 7:21:35 AM  
Where did they find it?
 
LoneVVolf
2023-02-01 7:38:53 AM  

Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine


That's a given, but the governor of Alaska is doing the same:

Gov. Mike Dunleavy issued a statement Tuesday along with leaders of several state departments blasting the EPA's veto. He said the veto "sets a dangerous precedent." "Alarmingly, it lays the foundation to stop any development project, mining or non-mining, in any area of Alaska with wetlands and fish-bearing streams," he said.

Yeah, that's the point, chucklef*ck...  You were too bought and paid for to do the right thing, so the feds had to step in and do it for you.

I'm sure that will be reversed as soon as redhats reclaim the white house, so enjoy salmon while you can.
 
elaw [BareFark]
2023-02-01 7:40:32 AM  
1. Yay!

2. It took 13 years?  !yay.
 
pueblonative
2023-02-01 7:47:11 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
kdawg7736 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-01 8:16:02 AM  
Will you be mine?
 
eswan [TotalFark]
2023-02-01 8:16:45 AM  
Mine not yours.
 
UNC_Samurai
2023-02-01 8:18:32 AM  

LoneVVolf: Gov. Mike Dunleavy issued a statement Tuesday along with leaders of several state departments blasting the EPA's veto. He said the veto "sets a dangerous precedent." "Alarmingly, it lays the foundation to stop any development project, mining or non-mining, in any area of Alaska with wetlands and fish-bearing streams," he said.

Yeah, that's the point, chucklef*ck...  You were too bought and paid for to do the right thing, so the feds had to step in and do it for you.


He's sucked ever since he played for Duke.
 
thealgorerhythm
2023-02-01 8:22:08 AM  

Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine


Denying him the ability to forever destroy the livelihood of thousands of people in the salmon industry is restraint of trade!
 
SanityIsAFullTimeJob
2023-02-01 8:24:58 AM  
We'll just have to import our pebbles from places like China now.
 
synithium
2023-02-01 8:37:43 AM  
Just wait 2 to 6 years and re-file for the mine permit under a friendlier federal administration that doesn't care as much about the environment.

Trump shrank federal protected lands by millions of acres.  It's not like it can't happen again and again and again and while it's nice someone said no this time...it only takes one yes one time.
 
HighlanderRPI
2023-02-01 8:37:49 AM  
I thought the meth heads did enough copper mining for the entire state of AK already? Why do they need another source?
 
gilatrout [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-02-01 8:39:21 AM  

Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine


They already said "it's not fair" to say no
 
rewind2846
2023-02-01 8:44:36 AM  
EPA. Environmental Protection Agency. Protects the environment, not the corporations.
It's right there in the name, morans.
 
AnudderFreakinFarker
2023-02-01 8:48:25 AM  

Vtimlin: Where did they find it?


They found it in another thread?

https://www.fark.com/goto/12737406/www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/missing-radioactive-capsule-found-western-australia-2023-02-01/

\ Thought the same thing here, reading the headline.
 
The Irresponsible Captain [TotalFark]
2023-02-01 9:03:57 AM  

rewind2846: EPA. Environmental Protection Agency. Protects the environment, not the corporations.
It's right there in the name, morans.


Thanks, Nixon.
 
Bob The Nob [OhFark]
2023-02-01 9:07:11 AM  
I have a bunch of pebbles in my yard, if that helps.
 
encephlavator
2023-02-01 9:08:19 AM  

Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine


So, serious question. Would you rather we import copper from Chile? I assume it comes on a ship burning bunker fuel? And lots more of it because Chile is 4 to 5 times the distance from the 48 states west coast ports that Alaska is. I also assume that's going to add to the cost of copper which increases the costs in the USA. We're trying to electrify cars and homes. How are we going to do that without copper and by burning more bunker fuel?
 
The Irresponsible Captain [TotalFark]
2023-02-01 9:10:30 AM  
Living in Western Pennsylvania I'm well aware how mine companies privatize the profits and socialize the losses. There are also other concerns, like balancing mining, a short term gain vs salmon, a long term source of income. Also the concerns of having a resource available to develop at some future date if needed, which reminds me of shale gas exploration driving the price way down. We would have been better of limiting extraction at the beginning. All those resources will still be there in a hundred years and there's no dire need to extract them right now.
 
encephlavator
2023-02-01 10:03:56 AM  

The Irresponsible Captain: Living in Western Pennsylvania I'm well aware how mine companies privatize the profits and socialize the losses. There are also other concerns, like balancing mining, a short term gain vs salmon, a long term source of income. Also the concerns of having a resource available to develop at some future date if needed, which reminds me of shale gas exploration driving the price way down. We would have been better of limiting extraction at the beginning. All those resources will still be there in a hundred years and there's no dire need to extract them right now.


So let's export problems like privatized profits and socialized costs to third world countries. Yeah, that sounds like good policy to me. Because when the commie coup comes to that country and they nationalize all the supply chain crap that we've come to depend on, then we gotta to send in the army, or at least the CIA. Careful what you wish for, tree huggers.
 
Oneiros [OhFark]
2023-02-01 10:11:20 AM  

encephlavator: Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine

So, serious question. Would you rather we import copper from Chile? I assume it comes on a ship burning bunker fuel? And lots more of it because Chile is 4 to 5 times the distance from the 48 states west coast ports that Alaska is. I also assume that's going to add to the cost of copper which increases the costs in the USA. We're trying to electrify cars and homes. How are we going to do that without copper and by burning more bunker fuel?


I think that any businesses that have costs to unwind them should have to put up the money in advance to be held by a third part insurer, so they can't just declare chapter 11 and spin off their obligations while keeping the profitable parts.

They should also be required to be insured against any disasters happening, possibly by more than one insurer / underwriter, so when some disaster happens, you don't just have a  company declare bankruptcy and leave it to the public to deal with the brownfield.  The smart insurers would audit the safety practices of the insured company to keep their liabilities down.

And we should possibly tariff imported materials based on the damage they do in other countries, so people don't just shift the costs to other places.

/also thinks that companies should have to pay up front for disposal costs so it's part of the cost of the product
//or whatever else to incentivize long lasting products vs disposable goods
 
Netrngr
2023-02-01 10:47:15 AM  

Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine


Well I'm not sure about mining for copper, but mining for gold all they use is water to wash the dirt through the sluice and eject the clean rocks out the back of the plant. That water is discharged into multiple settling ponds and the muddy water is allowed to quietly lose its particulates before being reintroduced to the river/ stream. It's monitored pretty closely as it is now and hasn't been an issue for the most part.
Now copper mining may require chemicals etc so i can see that.
Most mining companies replace stripped dirt / rocks with the tailings and sediment from the settling ponds and then replant native trees and leave the mined area in really good shape for wildlife.
I suspect there is more to this and this is how the activist groups are going about this. Don't get me wrong, Im all for the native people regaining the rights that they have long been denied but both groups need to learn how to work together toward a common goal.
Kinda like everything else in the world now it seems. When did people become so damned polarized?
 
Oneiros [OhFark]
2023-02-01 11:08:26 AM  

Netrngr: Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine

Well I'm not sure about mining for copper, but mining for gold all they use is water to wash the dirt through the sluice and eject the clean rocks out the back of the plant. That water is discharged into multiple settling ponds and the muddy water is allowed to quietly lose its particulates before being reintroduced to the river/ stream. It's monitored pretty closely as it is now and hasn't been an issue for the most part.
Now copper mining may require chemicals etc so i can see that.
Most mining companies replace stripped dirt / rocks with the tailings and sediment from the settling ponds and then replant native trees and leave the mined area in really good shape for wildlife.
I suspect there is more to this and this is how the activist groups are going about this. Don't get me wrong, Im all for the native people regaining the rights that they have long been denied but both groups need to learn how to work together toward a common goal.
Kinda like everything else in the world now it seems. When did people become so damned polarized?


If it's so well monitored, why aren't they using a closed system?

Use the waste water from previous batches to do the whole process again, rather than using new water and creating more water that's possibly contaminated that needs to be disposed of.

The only reason that I can think of is that there's something wrong with the used water, so they need to dispose of it before it gets to the point where the EPA won't let them dump it.  So they dispose of it when it's only slightly problematic.

As for the common goal... how about not being poisoned?

There are things like the doctrine of lateral support (you can't dig a pit on your property that causes mine to collapse), so how about you can't do things on your property that makes my property unlivable?  Or ruins public property, etc.

You may want to read up on the Tragedy of the Commons.  Even if it's not a town common that we're dealing with here, water and air should be considered as a common for the sake of how one person's greed can ruin it for everyone else around them.

People became polarized because history has taught them that rich people can lobby to have laws changed to not hold them accountable, ruin their town, then walk away.
 
Netrngr
2023-02-01 11:26:27 AM  

Oneiros: Netrngr: Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine

Well I'm not sure about mining for copper, but mining for gold all they use is water to wash the dirt through the sluice and eject the clean rocks out the back of the plant. That water is discharged into multiple settling ponds and the muddy water is allowed to quietly lose its particulates before being reintroduced to the river/ stream. It's monitored pretty closely as it is now and hasn't been an issue for the most part.
Now copper mining may require chemicals etc so i can see that.
Most mining companies replace stripped dirt / rocks with the tailings and sediment from the settling ponds and then replant native trees and leave the mined area in really good shape for wildlife.
I suspect there is more to this and this is how the activist groups are going about this. Don't get me wrong, Im all for the native people regaining the rights that they have long been denied but both groups need to learn how to work together toward a common goal.
Kinda like everything else in the world now it seems. When did people become so damned polarized?

If it's so well monitored, why aren't they using a closed system?

Use the waste water from previous batches to do the whole process again, rather than using new water and creating more water that's possibly contaminated that needs to be disposed of.

The only reason that I can think of is that there's something wrong with the used water, so they need to dispose of it before it gets to the point where the EPA won't let them dump it.  So they dispose of it when it's only slightly problematic.

As for the common goal... how about not being poisoned?

There are things like the doctrine of lateral support (you can't dig a pit on your property that causes mine to collapse), so how about you can't do things o ...


I dunno. The dirt in the discharge is the issue with reintroduction into the streams which is why they have the settling ponds. Not sure if they reuse the water from the ponds or not. Maybe from the end pond once all the grit is removed / settled out.
/not a miner but know how it works on a broad view.
 
acouvis
2023-02-01 11:26:33 AM  

Oneiros: Netrngr: Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine

Well I'm not sure about mining for copper, but mining for gold all they use is water to wash the dirt through the sluice and eject the clean rocks out the back of the plant. That water is discharged into multiple settling ponds and the muddy water is allowed to quietly lose its particulates before being reintroduced to the river/ stream. It's monitored pretty closely as it is now and hasn't been an issue for the most part.
Now copper mining may require chemicals etc so i can see that.
Most mining companies replace stripped dirt / rocks with the tailings and sediment from the settling ponds and then replant native trees and leave the mined area in really good shape for wildlife.
I suspect there is more to this and this is how the activist groups are going about this. Don't get me wrong, Im all for the native people regaining the rights that they have long been denied but both groups need to learn how to work together toward a common goal.
Kinda like everything else in the world now it seems. When did people become so damned polarized?

If it's so well monitored, why aren't they using a closed system?

Use the waste water from previous batches to do the whole process again, rather than using new water and creating more water that's possibly contaminated that needs to be disposed of.

The only reason that I can think of is that there's something wrong with the used water, so they need to dispose of it before it gets to the point where the EPA won't let them dump it.  So they dispose of it when it's only slightly problematic.

As for the common goal... how about not being poisoned?

There are things like the doctrine of lateral support (you can't dig a pit on your property that causes mine to collapse), so how about you can't do things o ...


One additional note: those complaining about how the mining could be stopped - Mining eventually would stop.  At some point it wouldn't be worthwhile to continue mining financially.... On the same note, mining is putting at risk a long term multi billion dollar industry (that of salmon fishing).

Is it worth harming an industry that could continue centuries for one that one that would work a few decades max?
 
Mike_1962
2023-02-01 11:57:17 AM  

encephlavator: Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine

So, serious question. Would you rather we import copper from Chile? I assume it comes on a ship burning bunker fuel? And lots more of it because Chile is 4 to 5 times the distance from the 48 states west coast ports that Alaska is. I also assume that's going to add to the cost of copper which increases the costs in the USA. We're trying to electrify cars and homes. How are we going to do that without copper and by burning more bunker fuel?


Your response is grossly disingenuous.  It might be marginally relevant in the absence of other domestic copper sources, but that is hardly the case.  Pebble is attractive to mining companies due to its potential for 'hi-grading'.  The initial owner skims the primo easily recoverable ore, then unloads the works to someone else, usually a foreign company.  It's a very old game in the mining business.
 
Oneiros [OhFark]
2023-02-01 12:05:53 PM  

Netrngr: I dunno. The dirt in the discharge is the issue with reintroduction into the streams which is why they have the settling ponds. Not sure if they reuse the water from the ponds or not. Maybe from the end pond once all the grit is removed / settled out.
/not a miner but know how it works on a broad view.


Right, you have setting so any oils float to the top and solids sink to the bottom.

But if the water was truly "clean", they'd use it and have a complete cycle.  They usually don't.  And in cases like fracking, they won't even tell you what else they pumped into the wells because that's considered a trade secret.

/not a civil engineer but I have a degree in it
 
Mike_1962
2023-02-01 12:07:16 PM  

Netrngr: Oneiros: I'm sure that the mine operator will complain about how the government is taking away his freedom to poison all of his neighbors and leave it blighted area once it's no longer profitable to continue operating the mine

Well I'm not sure about mining for copper, but mining for gold all they use is water to wash the dirt through the sluice and eject the clean rocks out the back of the plant. That water is discharged into multiple settling ponds and the muddy water is allowed to quietly lose its particulates before being reintroduced to the river/ stream. It's monitored pretty closely as it is now and hasn't been an issue for the most part.
Now copper mining may require chemicals etc so i can see that.
Most mining companies replace stripped dirt / rocks with the tailings and sediment from the settling ponds and then replant native trees and leave the mined area in really good shape for wildlife.
I suspect there is more to this and this is how the activist groups are going about this. Don't get me wrong, Im all for the native people regaining the rights that they have long been denied but both groups need to learn how to work together toward a common goal.
Kinda like everything else in the world now it seems. When did people become so damned polarized?


Um.  You're talking placer mining.  Pebble isn't a placer deposit.  Pollutants associated with gold mining include arsenic (released from the fractured ore) as well as cyanide and mercury (used to recovery fine particulate gold).  Since it's associated with copper, that means sulphide minerals so runoff will be not only poison but highly acidic.  Given the historical record of mining operations Pebble comes down to a binary choice.  Mine or salmon.  Talk about selling your birthright for a mess of pottage...
 
Oneiros [OhFark]
2023-02-01 12:13:45 PM  

acouvis: One additional note: those complaining about how the mining could be stopped - Mining eventually would stop.  At some point it wouldn't be worthwhile to continue mining financially.... On the same note, mining is putting at risk a long term multi billion dollar industry (that of salmon fishing).

Is it worth harming an industry that could continue centuries for one that one that would work a few decades max?


And that's why they need to be looking at landfills, recycling (it's actually worthwhile for metals), and longer-life products.

Say you have a mine and it's no longer financially worthwhile.  If the company doesn't just spin it off to another company as part of a bankruptcy or sell it to some other company (so they don't have to monitor that it's not becoming a problem), they can just wait until that's true for everyone else, too.

And the price of the commodity goes up... and then it might be profitable again.

History has shown that there are companies who have good safety and environmental practices.  I think there was an oil company out of Sweden or Norway that had something like 1/10 or 1/100 the spill rate of any other company that was operating in the Dakotas.

Let them operate, so long as they can keep that rate up, and force the rest of the companies to pay real money for their spills, not some token fines that they get to settle for 10% or tie up in litigation for years like Exxon and BP
 
2KanZam
2023-02-01 1:27:58 PM  

Netrngr: I dunno. The dirt in the discharge is the issue with reintroduction into the streams which is why they have the settling ponds. Not sure if they reuse the water from the ponds or not. Maybe from the end pond once all the grit is removed / settled out.
/not a miner but know how it works on a broad view.



Oh sweet summer child... where to begin?

I think it should be obvious to anyone that the destruction of original habitat is bad, so I will just move on to the less obvious ecological issues presented...

The sediment in the discharge is just ONE of the MANY problems returning the water to the stream.  First, the oils and greases that are introduced by the equipment:  Some will float, some will bind to sediment and sink.  The settlement ponds ARE there to catch sediment, yes, but those ponds are often lined as a barrier to leaching and often encapsulated/ buried to keep it in place once filled or not in use. These aren't things you do with non-hazardous substances.  They are left in place and it is just tots and pears that they never rupture, leak, etc.  The land is NOT just returned to its normal substrate composition which inhibits pioneer species and natural growth.

Other heavy metals will be unearthed and released due to the added surface area created by crushing, stirring and displacing.  Exposure to oxygen and other chemical reactions occur to make other nasties that are also released into the environment.  The heavy metals and reactions etc will vary from site to site but we are talking things like selenium, mercury, chromium, iron, arsenic, aluminum, magnesium, various sulphur compounds and acidic wastewater.

Also this type of mining (especially in 3rd world countries) uses mercury to collect trace amounts of gold.  Liquid, free-form mercury... mixed with water and sediment and rinsed... and then released.  It is incredibly toxic...think about that.

The oils, fuels and lubricants that are stored and used on site are a whole 'nother issue and tend to get messier the more remote a mine gets.  And this is REMOTE.

/Environmental Inspector
 
mistahtom
2023-02-01 8:52:05 PM  
Reversing this decision will be one of Trump's first orders of business after the GOP controlled House and Senate force an unconstitutional  brokered Electoral College certificationTrump is "re-elected"
 
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