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(YouTube)   A rising danger of modding games is the Triple A suits might think nothing of releasing unfinished crap and assume it will be fixed FOR FREE post launch day when the majority of profits are made   (youtube.com) divider line
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470 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 30 Jan 2023 at 6:50 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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rjakobi
2023-01-30 6:57:34 PM  
Is it REALLY that easy to mod console releases though, Subby?
 
IdentInvalid
2023-01-30 7:17:33 PM  
"A rising danger", as if it hasn't been the norm for over a decade.

"Here's your game, enjoy your 50G+ day-one patch that will at least get the game running, kinda-sorta!"

CDPR might be learning, but Bethesda won't, because everyone looks forward to their jank and how far they can exploit it.  You should see the people decrying the unofficial bugfixes.  In fairness, it does kinda suck to install one of them, knowing it'll fix some really annoying issues that break quests, only to try using an exploit that's practically common sense/accepted mechanics, finding that it works the way it should have back when the game was released.
 
spiralscratch
2023-01-30 7:18:24 PM  
You mean the Bethesda business model?
 
Unsung_Hero
2023-01-30 7:57:11 PM  
To be honest... you're never going to get even close to a price match on what passionate amateurs will do compared to the pros, even if you paid those amateurs.

So, they should.  Release a decent base game, make it dead easy to mod, and then once a year look at the mod scene and buy the top new mods that fit with the original game rather than radically alter it.  Then hand that over to your internal team for review and tweaking and release it as proper DLC for a small fee (the "we reviewed and adjusted this to fit into the game seamlessly" fee).

I would never play Fallout: New Vegas without a bunch of mods (I believe I have something on the order of 70 of them installed).  OK, the modders should NOT have been the ones releasing stability patches, but other than those the base game was just fine... the mods made it better.  Those modders should have gotten a "thank you" payday.
 
Space Station Wagon
2023-01-30 8:27:00 PM  
Bug bounties are popular with COTS how about Mod Mula for games.
 
Denjiro
2023-01-30 8:28:02 PM  
As others in the thread have pointed out, this has been the norm for at least a decade. I play Bethesda games, and usually give it a shot unmodded at first. I'm usually only successful if I start up at launch before there are many available. On following playthroughs, or if I get a game well after launch I go hog wild. I've hit the 255 mod limit on Nexus Mod Manager with the Skyrim remaster and with Fallout 4.

I especially liked the mods that added new settlements in Fallout 4. The Bridgeport settlement was my favorite. It turned the bridge into a settlement so I walled off and secured either end of the bridge. Ended up putting the living structures over and around the bridge.

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I also have something of a compulsion about covering things with lights...

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moothemagiccow
2023-01-30 8:32:05 PM  
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don't work for free, dumb asses
 
Gordon Bennett [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-30 9:08:03 PM  

spiralscratch: You mean the Bethesda business model?


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NephilimNexus
2023-01-30 9:11:10 PM  
This phenomenon is more commonly known as "Steam Early Access."
 
Unsung_Hero
2023-01-30 9:20:01 PM  

Gordon Bennett: spiralscratch: You mean the Bethesda business model?

[Fark user image 500x486]


I mean... if I worked there, I'd totally cut up a plastic office plant, grab some epoxy, and actually DO that.
 
Flappyhead
2023-01-30 11:00:03 PM  

IdentInvalid: "A rising danger", as if it hasn't been the norm for over a decade.


Yeah, I had to become very picky about buying games as a result which lead to missing out on some real quality ones for years because I didn't trust the companies or their media buddies.  Modding for variety is fun, modding so a game functions is insane.
 
Cythraul
2023-01-30 11:11:15 PM  

spiralscratch: You mean the Bethesda business model?


For all the shiat Bethesda gets for releasing buggy games that require mods to fix them, I've only ever ran into a game-breaking bug once in one of their games.

Even unmodded, right after their release, I had a blast playing Fallout 4 and Skyrim.  And any bugs experienced were minor annoyances compared to the fun I was having.
 
MaxTigar
2023-01-30 11:41:43 PM  

Cythraul: spiralscratch: You mean the Bethesda business model?

For all the shiat Bethesda gets for releasing buggy games that require mods to fix them, I've only ever ran into a game-breaking bug once in one of their games.

Even unmodded, right after their release, I had a blast playing Fallout 4 and Skyrim.  And any bugs experienced were minor annoyances compared to the fun I was having.


I agree completely. Only bug I ever had playing Skyrim was a fall through the world when I was loading the inside of the Solitude mansion. Loaded the autosave, back on my way.

I've had many and more damaging bugs/crashes from AutoCAD over the last 2 decades than anything from my recreational computer usage. Lost an entire week of work. Had to completely Uninstall CAD and redo the whole shebang.
Never need to do that with a game.
 
Cythraul
2023-01-30 11:52:30 PM  

MaxTigar: Cythraul: spiralscratch: You mean the Bethesda business model?

For all the shiat Bethesda gets for releasing buggy games that require mods to fix them, I've only ever ran into a game-breaking bug once in one of their games.

Even unmodded, right after their release, I had a blast playing Fallout 4 and Skyrim.  And any bugs experienced were minor annoyances compared to the fun I was having.

I agree completely. Only bug I ever had playing Skyrim was a fall through the world when I was loading the inside of the Solitude mansion. Loaded the autosave, back on my way.

I've had many and more damaging bugs/crashes from AutoCAD over the last 2 decades than anything from my recreational computer usage. Lost an entire week of work. Had to completely Uninstall CAD and redo the whole shebang.
Never need to do that with a game.


Major crashes from a professional design program?  Wow.  You'd think such software would be on a higher standard.
 
gameshowhost [OhFark]
2023-01-31 12:12:13 AM  
It's about ethics in gaming journalism.
 
Cinedelic
2023-01-31 12:16:56 AM  

Denjiro: As others in the thread have pointed out, this has been the norm for at least a decade. I play Bethesda games, and usually give it a shot unmodded at first. I'm usually only successful if I start up at launch before there are many available. On following playthroughs, or if I get a game well after launch I go hog wild. I've hit the 255 mod limit on Nexus Mod Manager with the Skyrim remaster and with Fallout 4.

I especially liked the mods that added new settlements in Fallout 4. The Bridgeport settlement was my favorite. It turned the bridge into a settlement so I walled off and secured either end of the bridge. Ended up putting the living structures over and around the bridge.


*shocked Pikachu face*

I loved Bridgeport, too!  My build took advantage of the space underneath the bridge, putting an Institute bio research center there.  I situated an experimental farm on the east bank of the river and a power armor/ synth repair bay on/around the underpass on the west end and a command center in the middle.  The spacing worked really well horizontally.

Building vertically to connect the substructure with the bridge?  Ehhh, that was a little messier.

Apologies to everyone else for the digressive fan gush.

/Now, if you really want to see me gush, ask me about Aloot's Home Plate settlement mod.
//Go on.  I double Dogmeat dare you.
///Or just go check it out for yourself.
 
Denjiro
2023-01-31 12:47:07 AM  

Cinedelic: Denjiro: As others in the thread have pointed out, this has been the norm for at least a decade. I play Bethesda games, and usually give it a shot unmodded at first. I'm usually only successful if I start up at launch before there are many available. On following playthroughs, or if I get a game well after launch I go hog wild. I've hit the 255 mod limit on Nexus Mod Manager with the Skyrim remaster and with Fallout 4.

I especially liked the mods that added new settlements in Fallout 4. The Bridgeport settlement was my favorite. It turned the bridge into a settlement so I walled off and secured either end of the bridge. Ended up putting the living structures over and around the bridge.

*shocked Pikachu face*

I loved Bridgeport, too!  My build took advantage of the space underneath the bridge, putting an Institute bio research center there.  I situated an experimental farm on the east bank of the river and a power armor/ synth repair bay on/around the underpass on the west end and a command center in the middle.  The spacing worked really well horizontally.

Building vertically to connect the substructure with the bridge?  Ehhh, that was a little messier.

Apologies to everyone else for the digressive fan gush.

/Now, if you really want to see me gush, ask me about Aloot's Home Plate settlement mod.
//Go on.  I double Dogmeat dare you.
///Or just go check it out for yourself.


Not sure if that one was available when I was playing Fallout 4. It's been around three years since I last played and even longer since I added new mods. I did go fairly nuts with University Point and the Red Rocket in Nuka World. I actually got to beta test Nuka World.

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Lusiphur
2023-01-31 1:02:51 AM  
On the one hand, this is an annoying thing that major devs have been doing for a while. On the other, it really actually is the fans' fault for pushing devs to crank out content at a ludicrous place.

CSB: I play Valheim. Have since day one. It's in early access. Two years ago, they released a tentative roadmap for the next year. Within two months, they reevaluated and pulled it, communicating clearly that the early success has made them rethink large chunks of content and made them want to go bigger and better which they could now afford to do. In the year that the roadmap covered, they knocked out about 2/3rds of their major goals, a bunch of minor ones, surprised everyone several times with unexpected content drops, did multiple rebalancing tweaks, and squashed god knows how many bugs (some of them game-breaking.) All while radically redeveloping the next big piece of content and communicating clearly about expectations.

And despite all this, for the entirety of last year was an absolute shiat-show of a dumpster fire of pissed off entitled fans demanding a small indie team do everything they promised PLUS stick perfectly to their original roadmap while ALSO expanding the roadmap to what eventually came out in December, about 6 months behind schedule. I'm no stranger to the internet, but it was absolutely vile how toxic that community turned just because the developer of a perfectly playable and feature-rich $20 game wasn't adding new shiat fast enough. They harassed devs in Twitter, on Facebook, on YouTube, on Reddit. Truly absolutely disgusting shiat. If I were a dev at that point, I would have just said "fark all of y'all, you got your $20-worth, fark off and play what you've got because we all quit."

So yes, devs can make shiatty decisions. But those shiatty decisions are often driven by even shiattier fans who think they're owed a triple-A title every 2 months to feed the complete and utter emptiness inside. Every decision is made because of incentives. Right now, with the state of the hobby what it is, all the incentives are "crank it out fast and cheap, and we'll deal with problems later if ever, because of we don't we'll lose our entire fan-base overnight."
 
McGrits [TotalFark]
2023-01-31 4:40:27 AM  
What I find interesting are gamers who get upset that a game is not set up for mods. The gamers are loud and pissy and think that every game should be easy to mod to their whims. My main example is with Battle Brothers. A small dev team did a great job of coding and responded to bugs and balance and all the things, but the game wasn't set up for mods. So people who never played the game were all loud about never buying the game since it did not have a set up for easy nodding. It was weird. Modders eventually figured out how to mod and the devs helped a little bit where they could. The devs are supposed incorporate the mid community in their next game.
 
Entropy_Bot
2023-01-31 5:02:29 AM  

Lusiphur: it really actually is the fans' fault


What in the actual...

Lusiphur: Valheim


That's not AAA corporate crunch timing the developer into making an unfinished mess, that's scope creep.
 
sniderman
2023-01-31 10:01:03 AM  
Kinda like TTRPGs?
 
Lusiphur
2023-01-31 10:13:44 AM  

Entropy_Bot: Lusiphur: it really actually is the fans' fault

What in the actual...

Lusiphur: Valheim

That's not AAA corporate crunch timing the developer into making an unfinished mess, that's scope creep.


It's not scope creep, it was a complete rescope and reimagining, but thanks for kind of delivering my point!
 
Lumbar Puncture
2023-01-31 10:41:30 AM  
I'm glad the article writer woke up from their coma though if they're worried about this wait until they catch up on more recent history.
 
Hunchentoot
2023-01-31 11:11:52 AM  

Cythraul: Major crashes from a professional design program?  Wow.  You'd think such software would be on a higher standard.


Adobe Illustrator looks up from its morning coffee and says "Hi."
 
deadsanta
2023-01-31 11:18:48 AM  
It's been this way for 20 years now, I think, whenever Nexus-mods and similar sites started providing mod support.  Steam workshop in 2011 (per wiki) made it official, and doomsayers have been saying this all along, as long as I've been lurking sites anyway.  Since PC games started there's been a balance between patch-and-release and release-perfect launches, and it's gone back and forth.  I had many games in the 80s and 90s release with an extra floppy or some sort of simple code fixes I was expected to add on, not to even mention all the memory optimizing that the end-user was supposed to negotiate between XMS and EMS system memory.  Ugh that shiat sucked.

Some games directed you to buy a particular gaming magazine that would come with a bagged floppy that fixed some larger critical issue, and the devs would add some rando extra as an apology for all the hoop jumping.  Doomsayers have been claiming this would destroy the games industry forever and that fans would revolt, it never did, and we never have.  And why should we?  It's a farking game, a pasttime, and its small money these days, even to the most broke-ass kids among us, who rip games for free anyway, so why the fark should they ever care?
 
guinsu
2023-01-31 11:59:02 AM  

IdentInvalid: "A rising danger", as if it hasn't been the norm for over a decade.

"Here's your game, enjoy your 50G+ day-one patch that will at least get the game running, kinda-sorta!"

CDPR might be learning, but Bethesda won't, because everyone looks forward to their jank and how far they can exploit it.  You should see the people decrying the unofficial bugfixes.  In fairness, it does kinda suck to install one of them, knowing it'll fix some really annoying issues that break quests, only to try using an exploit that's practically common sense/accepted mechanics, finding that it works the way it should have back when the game was released.


This is why 90% of the games I buy are indie.  They can't afford to release broken games.  Also, I read the steam reviews to make sure the game isn't buggy.
 
Foxxinnia
2023-01-31 1:58:56 PM  
I'm at the point where if modding tools are a prominent "feature" in the game's development I see that as a red flag.
 
oopsboom
2023-01-31 2:32:30 PM  
i hate to say it but i agree with Lusiphur.  There's a certain kind of fan that i think of as the "hardcore toxic apologist" that has destroyed gaming.  they dont want a balanced gaming experience.  they dont want bug free content.  they dont want balanced gameplay.

they want THAT ONE THING.  and they want it RIGHT FARKING NOW.
and as long as they have the one thing right now no matter how total farking dogshiat the rest of the game is...its not.  you're just playing it wrong, or dont understand it, or your mom sucks.

and since theres not just one of these people, but thousands.  and they all want different things.  the only way to appease them all is to try to create huge swathes of content.  metaphorically, to make the pool 10 miles wide but 6 inches deep and full of bits of broken glass.  b/c as long as their "one thing" is somewhere in the pool they will turn from your most profane critic into your most rabid fan - so its critical to get as many of them in the pool as possible.  thats why every game now days has that feel of sameness, while also being sloppy, late, and underdeveloped.
 
Entropy_Bot
2023-01-31 4:02:28 PM  

oopsboom: There's a certain kind of fan that i think of as the "hardcore toxic apologist"


Oh don't get me wrong, those dicks can go to hell. They've always been around. You tell them "STFU you'll get the game when its done." and move along. Saying that "the fans are killing video games" and not "corporate venture capitalist asshole CEO's are grinding their wage slaves into paste while delivering a sub par product on release" is cracked. 

AAA studio development ≠ indie/small studio development

oopsboom: make the pool 10 miles wide but 6 inches deep and full of bits of broken glass.


That's just The internetTM except the pool is also full of sewage

Lusiphur: but thanks for kind of delivering my point!


i.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
 
MadCat
2023-01-31 5:35:25 PM  
My enjoyment for most games actually comes from the act of modding it, finding something that doesn't work or a developer decision I disagree with and either finding a mod to fix it or digging into the code to make one of my own. I bought Skyrim on release. I have over 6,000 hours played across multiple versions. I have never once beaten the game. That doesn't mean that I'm enjoying my current run with a new set of mods any less.
 
Entropy_Bot
2023-01-31 6:09:26 PM  

MadCat: My enjoyment for most games actually comes from the act of modding it, finding something that doesn't work or a developer decision I disagree with and either finding a mod to fix it or digging into the code to make one of my own. I bought Skyrim on release. I have over 6,000 hours played across multiple versions. I have never once beaten the game. That doesn't mean that I'm enjoying my current run with a new set of mods any less.


Man, I haven't played Skyrim or NewVegas mod-loader Jenga in a while. I don't even know if I've got the space for it (I agree though).
 
oopsboom
2023-01-31 7:45:14 PM  

MadCat: My enjoyment for most games actually comes from the act of modding it, finding something that doesn't work or a developer decision I disagree with and either finding a mod to fix it or digging into the code to make one of my own. I bought Skyrim on release. I have over 6,000 hours played across multiple versions. I have never once beaten the game. That doesn't mean that I'm enjoying my current run with a new set of mods any less.


this sounds like me except im way worse with skyrim lol
when i decide to play it again i spent about 20 hours trying to get mods to work.  loading, reloading, troubleshooting.  trying to update versions of old things i like and downloading new things to try.  figuring out which things are dependent on what.  rebuilding the packages.
i get it all working perfectly FINALLY
and then play about 2 hours and get distracted by some new shiat on a steam sale and dont play it again for a year at which point i start the whole process over.
 
blodyholy
2023-02-01 1:17:14 AM  
Ugh. This thread.

Let's just all go back to playing Monopoly where the only bug in the game was the banker.
 
Entropy_Bot
2023-02-01 2:57:39 AM  

blodyholy: Ugh. This thread.

Let's just all go back to playing Monopoly where the only bug in the game was the banker.


Or the free parking custom ruleset mod.
It has always been this way.
 
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