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(The Verge)   Dirty console peasants shall no longer sully championship Street Fighter V tournament held by Capcom itself   (theverge.com) divider line
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    More: Interesting, Fighting game, PlayStation 4, Capcom, Street Fighter, Street Fighter V, PlayStation, Display device, Software release life cycle  
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735 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 30 Jan 2023 at 12:35 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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dywed88
2023-01-30 1:00:42 AM  
Sounds like they should have done it years ago, but they were probably paid by Sony not to.

The simple fact is, a decent PC is far more capable than any console. And, in terms of the cost of a major LAN tournament, cost is not going to be a significant factor.
 
Mad_Radhu
2023-01-30 1:22:51 AM  

dywed88: Sounds like they should have done it years ago, but they were probably paid by Sony not to.

The simple fact is, a decent PC is far more capable than any console. And, in terms of the cost of a major LAN tournament, cost is not going to be a significant factor.


It's complicated, though. There's been some games that play really smoothly on consoles but their PC versions run inconsistently because driver issues, DRM issues, or simply some general Windows wonkiness will cause them to randomly start getting stuttery.

You'd think a vastly more powerful computer would play the game more reliably than a console, but that isn't always the case.
 
eldritch2k4
2023-01-30 3:15:04 AM  

Mad_Radhu: dywed88: Sounds like they should have done it years ago, but they were probably paid by Sony not to.

The simple fact is, a decent PC is far more capable than any console. And, in terms of the cost of a major LAN tournament, cost is not going to be a significant factor.

It's complicated, though. There's been some games that play really smoothly on consoles but their PC versions run inconsistently because driver issues, DRM issues, or simply some general Windows wonkiness will cause them to randomly start getting stuttery.

You'd think a vastly more powerful computer would play the game more reliably than a console, but that isn't always the case.


Those issues simply aren't a factor when talking about an enterprise level LAN like this.

Identical hardware and a fresh image install and it will run just fine until you introduce something new. That's why large corps have the no unapproved software rules.
 
Marcos P
2023-01-30 9:28:20 AM  
I used to think high hz was nonsense until I saw it.
 
we_want_a_shrubbery
2023-01-30 11:17:40 AM  

Marcos P: I used to think high hz was nonsense until I saw it.


Back in the days of CRT monitors, I could never figure out why using a computer for more than ~15 min. or so would always give me a headache. One day, I was fiddling with the settings and changed the refresh rate from 60 to 85. It was like night and day for me... those old CRTs would just blast me with light at about the same refresh rate that my eyes work at ~60 hz, and it would look flickery. I couldn't stand it.

Higher refresh rate (on CRT) monitors made all the difference in the world to me.

On LCD and OLED displays, 60 hz is fine (non-headache inducing for me) because of the way the screen refreshes the image; instead of blasting an image on phosphors with a residual illumination time and then re-blasting, flat-panel displays keep a color up on a pixel and then change it quickly 1x / cycle. LCD/OLED don't flicker regardless of what refresh rate they are set to, so it doesn't matter as much for me.

That being said... I do love a high hz refresh rate for anything and everything I can use it for. SO SMOOTH
 
grimlock1972
2023-01-30 12:36:49 PM  
eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.
 
dywed88
2023-01-30 12:53:41 PM  

grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.


The goal is to emphasize skill playing the game and at that level it takes very little lag to have an impact and take away from the game.

Just running the game at 144 Hz rather than 60 Hz makes a significant difference at that level, and a PS5 just doesn't have the ability to output that. No, it probably doesn't impact your gameplay, but for the best of the best getting that information a tiny fraction of a second later makes a difference.
 
McGrits [TotalFark]
2023-01-30 1:18:46 PM  
If the two players are not sitting on the same couch (or side by side captain chairs) connected to the same console/pc, then the tournament is not meeting the original spirit of fighting games.

/LAN is for first person shooters
 
grimlock1972
2023-01-30 2:32:29 PM  

dywed88: grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.

The goal is to emphasize skill playing the game and at that level it takes very little lag to have an impact and take away from the game.

Just running the game at 144 Hz rather than 60 Hz makes a significant difference at that level, and a PS5 just doesn't have the ability to output that. No, it probably doesn't impact your gameplay, but for the best of the best getting that information a tiny fraction of a second later makes a difference.


Again dealing with a bit of lag is a skill that can be acquired with sufficient practice.    So long as all players are on an equal footing as far as controllers and what the game is being played on then i see no real reason to get too bent out of shape about lag unless it is so bad the game is unplayable which clearly is not the case here.
 
leeksfromchichis [TotalFark]
2023-01-30 3:01:50 PM  

McGrits: If the two players are not sitting on the same couch (or side by side captain chairs) connected to the same console/pc, then the tournament is not meeting the original spirit of fighting games.

/LAN is for first person shooters


Arcades will line up the fighters opposite each other so you're literally going head to head
 
dywed88
2023-01-30 3:06:24 PM  

grimlock1972: dywed88: grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.

The goal is to emphasize skill playing the game and at that level it takes very little lag to have an impact and take away from the game.

Just running the game at 144 Hz rather than 60 Hz makes a significant difference at that level, and a PS5 just doesn't have the ability to output that. No, it probably doesn't impact your gameplay, but for the best of the best getting that information a tiny fraction of a second later makes a difference.

Again dealing with a bit of lag is a skill that can be acquired with sufficient practice.    So long as all players are on an equal footing as far as controllers and what the game is being played on then i see no real reason to get too bent out of shape about lag unless it is so bad the game is unplayable which clearly is not the case here.


Yeah, no. You want the best gameplay you can get for your massive tournaments. And that means as little delay etc as possible.
 
freakdiablo [TotalFark]
2023-01-30 3:43:37 PM  

Marcos P: I used to think high hz was nonsense until I saw it.


I'm also a fan of GSync (haven't tried freesync, but could be just as good).

Even <=60hz seems smoother and virtually no screen tearing with oddball framerates.
 
palelizard
2023-01-30 3:59:26 PM  

grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.


Yeah, that just sounds like a mapping issue. If the game's run on the same machinery, why is my keyboard layout relevant to lag? And a console controller in that case is just a keyboard.
 
Mad_Radhu
2023-01-30 4:54:09 PM  

dywed88: grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.

The goal is to emphasize skill playing the game and at that level it takes very little lag to have an impact and take away from the game.

Just running the game at 144 Hz rather than 60 Hz makes a significant difference at that level, and a PS5 just doesn't have the ability to output that. No, it probably doesn't impact your gameplay, but for the best of the best getting that information a tiny fraction of a second later makes a difference.


The PS5 can do 120 Hz, which isn't that far off from 144 Hz, although Street Fighter V would have to support that frame rate.
 
Mad_Radhu
2023-01-30 4:57:32 PM  

palelizard: grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.

Yeah, that just sounds like a mapping issue. If the game's run on the same machinery, why is my keyboard layout relevant to lag? And a console controller in that case is just a keyboard.


PS5 controllers connect via Bluetooth which will introduce some lag compared to a wired controller. Although for Street Fighter I'd expect most compatible players to be using a wired arcade stick instead of a Dual Sense.
 
Mad_Radhu
2023-01-30 4:57:55 PM  
*competitive players, not compatible
 
dywed88
2023-01-30 5:12:45 PM  

Mad_Radhu: dywed88: grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.

The goal is to emphasize skill playing the game and at that level it takes very little lag to have an impact and take away from the game.

Just running the game at 144 Hz rather than 60 Hz makes a significant difference at that level, and a PS5 just doesn't have the ability to output that. No, it probably doesn't impact your gameplay, but for the best of the best getting that information a tiny fraction of a second later makes a difference.

The PS5 can do 120 Hz, which isn't that far off from 144 Hz, although Street Fighter V would have to support that frame rate.


Street Fighter V can clearly support higher frame rates, the PS5 just doesn't have enough power to generate those frames. The only way to get that would be to seriously decrease the visual quality for a tournament intended to draw in viewers. Or just use a PC.

The framerate and input lag on a PS5 are almost certainly irrelevant to 99% plus of players. But for that very top fraction of a percentage in the top level competitions it is a big deal.

There are benefits to consoles, they just don't matter in this context.
 
dywed88
2023-01-30 5:27:29 PM  

Mad_Radhu: palelizard: grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.

Yeah, that just sounds like a mapping issue. If the game's run on the same machinery, why is my keyboard layout relevant to lag? And a console controller in that case is just a keyboard.

PS5 controllers connect via Bluetooth which will introduce some lag compared to a wired controller. Although for Street Fighter I'd expect most compatible players to be using a wired arcade stick instead of a Dual Sense.


Even a wired controller will have latency, as defined by its polling rate, but from a quick google the PS5 supports up to 8000 Hz polling rates so it shouldn't be an issue. Plus the players also provide their own controllers (and can use custom ones) within the rules.

The important latency would be introduced by the processing by the console and the outputted framerate.
 
Madstand [TotalFark]
2023-01-30 6:37:55 PM  

grimlock1972: dywed88: grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.

The goal is to emphasize skill playing the game and at that level it takes very little lag to have an impact and take away from the game.

Just running the game at 144 Hz rather than 60 Hz makes a significant difference at that level, and a PS5 just doesn't have the ability to output that. No, it probably doesn't impact your gameplay, but for the best of the best getting that information a tiny fraction of a second later makes a difference.

Again dealing with a bit of lag is a skill that can be acquired with sufficient practice.    So long as all players are on an equal footing as far as controllers and what the game is being played on then i see no real reason to get too bent out of shape about lag unless it is so bad the game is unplayable which clearly is not the case here.


Except input lag isn't consistent.  You actually can't practice for it.  Let me give you an example of why.  Hard Punch has 20 total frames (a frame is 1/60 of a second).  Let's say frames 13 to 17 are cancellable into a special move.  Any other frame and it won't work.  With zero input lag you are able to time your special move command for frame 15, thus the move works and combos.  If you have significant input lag you input special move command at frame 15 but the lag means it registers on frame 18.  The game reads that as too late and the special move does not come out.

As the player you see in the game when to do the special move.  But unless you know the EXACT number of frames the input lag is arriving you have no idea when you can correctly do moves.  Less input lag means the ranges are smaller and the player is less likely to miss key timings.  If input lag was a matter of YES or NO then you could practice for it.
 
grimlock1972
2023-01-31 11:46:14 AM  

Madstand: grimlock1972: dywed88: grimlock1972: eh okay, that said seems to me being able to compensate for what ever input lag there may be is just part of the skillset you need to compete at that level.

That said no clue why modern console controllers have lag enough that would be noticeable enough to make folks think this change is needed.

The goal is to emphasize skill playing the game and at that level it takes very little lag to have an impact and take away from the game.

Just running the game at 144 Hz rather than 60 Hz makes a significant difference at that level, and a PS5 just doesn't have the ability to output that. No, it probably doesn't impact your gameplay, but for the best of the best getting that information a tiny fraction of a second later makes a difference.

Again dealing with a bit of lag is a skill that can be acquired with sufficient practice.    So long as all players are on an equal footing as far as controllers and what the game is being played on then i see no real reason to get too bent out of shape about lag unless it is so bad the game is unplayable which clearly is not the case here.

Except input lag isn't consistent.  You actually can't practice for it.  Let me give you an example of why.  Hard Punch has 20 total frames (a frame is 1/60 of a second).  Let's say frames 13 to 17 are cancellable into a special move.  Any other frame and it won't work.  With zero input lag you are able to time your special move command for frame 15, thus the move works and combos.  If you have significant input lag you input special move command at frame 15 but the lag means it registers on frame 18.  The game reads that as too late and the special move does not come out.

As the player you see in the game when to do the special move.  But unless you know the EXACT number of frames the input lag is arriving you have no idea when you can correctly do moves.  Less input lag means the ranges are smaller and the player is less likely to miss key timings.  If input ...


Literally every thing you said if practicable if you have certain data to work with to be able to train your self to adapt to potential variable :

 1. The hardware the game will be played on be it PC or any given Console.
2. The Brand and model of controller or keyboard/mouse being used if you are not allowed to use your own.

if you have that data in hand  you can match the hardware and get at worst a very close approximation of the lag to be expected and practice with your main(s)  to adapt to what ever the lag in question is.

I doubt you even need to know the exact number of frames the lag is going into your practice for an event if you have enough time and the right set up to practice on.

Mind i fully admit getting a closely matching set up isn't cheap and unless you have a well heeled backer funding you it would be a big hit to your personal finances to do this.

With sufficient effort and practice on a set up as close as you can get to to the tourney set up a pro player ought to be able to adapt easily to any minor variations. If there is more than a minor variation from a nearly identical/identical* system then the hard ware or software in use has a problem.

* Built to the same exacting specs, same CPU,GPU and etc or exact same model of console built as close tot he time the ones the tourney uses with same firmware updates in place.   Will never get exactly identical due to anything man made having tiny even normally imperceptible variations that may or may not affect anything.

A more casual player, yeah i would expect them to struggle but not a dedicated professional player.
 
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