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    More: Murica, Government, Tunnel, Highway, Gila River, City, Interstate Highway System, United States Senate, Community  
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4601 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jan 2023 at 4:50 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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eurotrader [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 1:50:10 PM  
There is no national interest in encouraging population increase or easing traffic concerns in the AZ desert until  the water issues are sorted out along with the rise in temperature.
 
Badmoodman [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 2:26:43 PM  
Expanding roads is the wrong way to go. Just as 'water seeks its own level,' expanding roads and making new ones will just add more traffic, more pollution, more congestion.
 
fragMasterFlash [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 2:38:03 PM  
On one hand, Arizona might not be habitable anymore in 50 years, on the other hand if this project somehow helps the new semiconductor fabs going up in AZ to be more competitive in the world market that would be a very good thing.
 
weddingsinger [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 2:50:00 PM  
Yes. Fix the existing roads, remove excess and convert them to tram/train lines, bus only lanes, and bike/walking paths. A person should be able to live in America without owning a car in any town, not just NYC.

Ideally a person in a town of 50,000 could take a 5 minute walk and catch a free bus to the train station where every hour a ride to a hub city to enjoy the day, a weekend, or get on high speed rail to cross the country for reasonable prices.
 
cretinbob [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 3:05:50 PM  
Yeah, this should kinda be a no-brainer
 
Rusty Shackleford [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 3:28:32 PM  
Hey, I've been to Gila Bend! Could use a little TLC.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
khitsicker [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 3:59:37 PM  
I thought infrastructure week was over?
 
The Third Man [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 4:10:15 PM  

weddingsinger: Ideally a person in a town of 50,000 could take a 5 minute walk and catch a free bus to the train station where every hour a ride to a hub city to enjoy the day, a weekend, or get on high speed rail to cross the country for reasonable prices.


I love the idea of rail travel as much as anybody, but rail advocates have to stop concentrating on nationwide high speed rail as a panacea.  Even if a high-speed express connection could be built between--for example--New York City and Los Angeles that averaged 200 mph, that's still a 15-hour journey...and that's assuming a dedicated non-stop service would exist.  And the cost of building the project (not to mention maintenance and personnel costs) would mean ticket prices wouldn't be able to compete with air travel.  Who would pay more to arrive on the other side of the country many hours later?

Regional high-speed rail can be successful.  We know rail travel can be profitable and successful in the Northeast Corridor, so now we have to find solutions for other parts of the country.  But nationwide high-speed rail won't be competitive without massive technological advances.
 
edmo [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 4:31:28 PM  

eurotrader: There is no national interest in encouraging population increase or easing traffic concerns in the AZ desert until  the water issues are sorted out along with the rise in temperature.


It's an interstate. Most of the traffic is between California and Texas.
 
Notabunny [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 4:31:35 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
eurotrader [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 4:38:54 PM  

edmo: eurotrader: There is no national interest in encouraging population increase or easing traffic concerns in the AZ desert until  the water issues are sorted out along with the rise in temperature.

It's an interstate. Most of the traffic is between California and Texas.


A bypass of all of Phoenix by I 10 starting at case grande and connecting to 85 to 10 is a better and cheaper option. What AZ wants is to allow more suburban sprawl from Phoenix and better access to the Indian casino. I 10 going through phoenix is just a horrible road and can't be reasonably fixed.
 
red230
2023-01-29 4:52:17 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
blastoh
2023-01-29 4:52:21 PM  
Repair and build rail infrastructure into repairs.
 
meat0918 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 4:52:32 PM  

fragMasterFlash: On one hand, Arizona might not be habitable anymore in 50 years, on the other hand if this project somehow helps the new semiconductor fabs going up in AZ to be more competitive in the world market that would be a very good thing.


Isn't that extremely water intensive?
 
hugadarn [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 4:56:17 PM  

meat0918: fragMasterFlash: On one hand, Arizona might not be habitable anymore in 50 years, on the other hand if this project somehow helps the new semiconductor fabs going up in AZ to be more competitive in the world market that would be a very good thing.

Isn't that extremely water intensive?


Yes and no. Water treatment and recirculation is used at most sites in the US and Europe but it adds a lot to the cost. Taiwan's fabs are really good at wasting water.
 
tricycleracer
2023-01-29 5:06:52 PM  

Badmoodman: Expanding roads is the wrong way to go. Just as 'water seeks its own level,' expanding roads and making new ones will just add more traffic, more pollution, more congestion.


The point of more lanes is to increase throughput, not decrease individual travel times.
 
iheartscotch
2023-01-29 5:08:57 PM  
Increasing capacity directly increases use, congestion and traffic volume.

Increasing the availability, quality, speed and amount of public transportation decreases use, congestion and traffic volume.
 
Fissile
2023-01-29 5:18:08 PM  

The Third Man: weddingsinger: Ideally a person in a town of 50,000 could take a 5 minute walk and catch a free bus to the train station where every hour a ride to a hub city to enjoy the day, a weekend, or get on high speed rail to cross the country for reasonable prices.

I love the idea of rail travel as much as anybody, but rail advocates have to stop concentrating on nationwide high speed rail as a panacea.  Even if a high-speed express connection could be built between--for example--New York City and Los Angeles that averaged 200 mph, that's still a 15-hour journey...and that's assuming a dedicated non-stop service would exist.  And the cost of building the project (not to mention maintenance and personnel costs) would mean ticket prices wouldn't be able to compete with air travel.  Who would pay more to arrive on the other side of the country many hours later?

Regional high-speed rail can be successful.  We know rail travel can be profitable and successful in the Northeast Corridor, so now we have to find solutions for other parts of the country.  But nationwide high-speed rail won't be competitive without massive technological advances.


High speed rail should not be used for long-distance travel.   New York to LA? That's what airplanes are for.  Proper use of high speed rail is for regional transportation in high population density areas.  Boston/New York/DC is where high speed rail works.   We're talking hauls of 300-400 miles tops.  New York to Chicago would be too far.
 
mistahtom
2023-01-29 5:34:23 PM  
1950s INTERSTATE HIGHWAY PROMO FILM BY AMERICAN ROAD BUILDINGS ASSOCIATION 78014 MD
Youtube wnrqUHF5bH8
 
UltimaCS
2023-01-29 5:36:11 PM  

weddingsinger: Yes. Fix the existing roads, remove excess and convert them to tram/train lines, bus only lanes, and bike/walking paths. A person should be able to live in America without owning a car in any town, not just NYC.

Ideally a person in a town of 50,000 could take a 5 minute walk and catch a free bus to the train station where every hour a ride to a hub city to enjoy the day, a weekend, or get on high speed rail to cross the country for reasonable prices.


You're asking for an hourly bus that's going to be completely empty outside of a few hours per day, throughout a million different small towns.

And like someone else already said, countrywide rail is going to be a longer trip and more expensive than air travel. I took a similar one along the west coast and it was pretty miserable; $2k for a day and a half cooped up with criminals who didn't want Custom's scrutiny. Beautiful views, though.
 
alienated
2023-01-29 5:51:11 PM  

eurotrader: edmo: eurotrader: There is no national interest in encouraging population increase or easing traffic concerns in the AZ desert until  the water issues are sorted out along with the rise in temperature.

It's an interstate. Most of the traffic is between California and Texas.

A bypass of all of Phoenix by I 10 starting at case grande and connecting to 85 to 10 is a better and cheaper option. What AZ wants is to allow more suburban sprawl from Phoenix and better access to the Indian casino. I 10 going through phoenix is just a horrible road and can't be reasonably fixed.


Lotsa freight both east and west bound moves on the 10. You expect freight companies and truck capable fueling places to just move ?
 
weddingsinger [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 5:55:00 PM  

The Third Man: weddingsinger: Ideally a person in a town of 50,000 could take a 5 minute walk and catch a free bus to the train station where every hour a ride to a hub city to enjoy the day, a weekend, or get on high speed rail to cross the country for reasonable prices.

I love the idea of rail travel as much as anybody, but rail advocates have to stop concentrating on nationwide high speed rail as a panacea.  Even if a high-speed express connection could be built between--for example--New York City and Los Angeles that averaged 200 mph, that's still a 15-hour journey...and that's assuming a dedicated non-stop service would exist.  And the cost of building the project (not to mention maintenance and personnel costs) would mean ticket prices wouldn't be able to compete with air travel.  Who would pay more to arrive on the other side of the country many hours later?

Regional high-speed rail can be successful.  We know rail travel can be profitable and successful in the Northeast Corridor, so now we have to find solutions for other parts of the country.  But nationwide high-speed rail won't be competitive without massive technological advances.


I was thinking more regional hubs connected by the high speed rail.  So most of Minnesota feeds into Minneapolis/St. Paul which then has high speed to Chicago. Chicago connects to other hubs (Nashville, etc), not non-stop to L.A.
 
NM Volunteer [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 5:55:24 PM  

Notabunny: [Fark user image 700x476]


And how does that help laborers, truck drivers, delivery people, and tourists?  TFA is about interstate work in rural areas, particularly on the fringes of Reservations, if you had bothered to read it.
 
Gyrfalcon [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 5:56:16 PM  

eurotrader: There is no national interest in encouraging population increase or easing traffic concerns in the AZ desert until  the water issues are sorted out along with the rise in temperature.


Sure, it's a lot better to have people sitting in traffic for hours on end belching exhaust into the atmosphere. That won't have any impact on the climate whatsoever.
 
Clearly Canadian [OhFark]
2023-01-29 6:00:12 PM  
iheartscotch: Increasing capacity directly increases use, congestion and traffic volume.

Increasing the availability, quality, speed and amount of public transportation decreases use, congestion and traffic volume.

This. This forever.
Roads with capacity fill to their capacity whenever that possibility exists.
If a road has extra unused capacity, it can, and usually does, turn into a faster route, and thus the preferred route.
Shorter commutes because of higher capacity encourage development further away.
Look at any cluster of towns in the northeast corridor. The old bedroom community towns exist because there was a train route that enabled workers to access jobs further away.
Then highways were built, and those enabled new bedroom communities that sprawled around any onramp.

Explaining this shiat to a congressman from Buttafarka Ohio is basically impossible though.
 
Mrtraveler01
2023-01-29 6:00:17 PM  
As someone who lives not too far from where this happened...

npr.brightspotcdn.comView Full Size


I feel like we should prioritize what's already there before focusing on building something new.
 
Clearly Canadian [OhFark]
2023-01-29 6:00:30 PM  
iheartscotch: Increasing capacity directly increases use, congestion and traffic volume.

Increasing the availability, quality, speed and amount of public transportation decreases use, congestion and traffic volume.

This. This forever.

Roads with capacity fill to their capacity whenever that possibility exists.

If a road has extra unused capacity, it can, and usually does, turn into a faster route, and thus the preferred route.

Shorter commutes because of higher capacity encourage development further away.

Look at any cluster of towns in the northeast corridor. The old bedroom community towns exist because there was a train route that enabled workers to access jobs further away.

Then highways were built, and those enabled new bedroom communities that sprawled around any onramp.

Explaining this shiat to a congressman from Buttafarka Ohio is basically impossible though.
 
Clearly Canadian [OhFark]
2023-01-29 6:01:08 PM  

Clearly Canadian: iheartscotch: Increasing capacity directly increases use, congestion and traffic volume.

Increasing the availability, quality, speed and amount of public transportation decreases use, congestion and traffic volume.

This. This forever.

Roads with capacity fill to their capacity whenever that possibility exists.

If a road has extra unused capacity, it can, and usually does, turn into a faster route, and thus the preferred route.

Shorter commutes because of higher capacity encourage development further away.

Look at any cluster of towns in the northeast corridor. The old bedroom community towns exist because there was a train route that enabled workers to access jobs further away.

Then highways were built, and those enabled new bedroom communities that sprawled around any onramp.

Explaining this shiat to a congressman from Buttafarka Ohio is basically impossible though.


Curse you spotty wireless coverage!

CUUURRRSEEE YOUUUUU!
 
buravirgil
2023-01-29 6:03:08 PM  
i.imgflip.comView Full Size
 
Fissile
2023-01-29 6:07:58 PM  

Clearly Canadian: iheartscotch: Increasing capacity directly increases use, congestion and traffic volume.

Increasing the availability, quality, speed and amount of public transportation decreases use, congestion and traffic volume.

This. This forever.

Roads with capacity fill to their capacity whenever that possibility exists.

If a road has extra unused capacity, it can, and usually does, turn into a faster route, and thus the preferred route.

Shorter commutes because of higher capacity encourage development further away.

Look at any cluster of towns in the northeast corridor. The old bedroom community towns exist because there was a train route that enabled workers to access jobs further away.

Then highways were built, and those enabled new bedroom communities that sprawled around any onramp.

Explaining this shiat to a congressman from Buttafarka Ohio is basically impossible though.


Big oil explains it to them...they explain it by passing a big bag of cash under the table and the congressman instantly understands all the details.
 
Dear Jerk
2023-01-29 6:12:07 PM  
More roads is not a solution to traffic congestion. Everyone should sit back and think about how absurd it is for almost everybody to live 20 miles from where they work.
 
flamingboard
2023-01-29 6:13:25 PM  

The Third Man: Who would pay more to arrive on the other side of the country many hours later?


All the people that already takes the trains that are always 6 hours late because they have to wait for a freight train to clear the tracks.
 
NM Volunteer [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 6:14:29 PM  

Dear Jerk: More roads is not a solution to traffic congestion. Everyone should sit back and think about how absurd it is for almost everybody to live 20 miles from where they work.


If that's what you can afford, that's what you do.  Maybe the conversation should be why rents are so expensive.
 
weddingsinger [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 6:15:33 PM  

UltimaCS: weddingsinger: Yes. Fix the existing roads, remove excess and convert them to tram/train lines, bus only lanes, and bike/walking paths. A person should be able to live in America without owning a car in any town, not just NYC.

Ideally a person in a town of 50,000 could take a 5 minute walk and catch a free bus to the train station where every hour a ride to a hub city to enjoy the day, a weekend, or get on high speed rail to cross the country for reasonable prices.

You're asking for an hourly bus that's going to be completely empty outside of a few hours per day, throughout a million different small towns.

And like someone else already said, countrywide rail is going to be a longer trip and more expensive than air travel. I took a similar one along the west coast and it was pretty miserable; $2k for a day and a half cooped up with criminals who didn't want Custom's scrutiny. Beautiful views, though.


Most roads and definitely parking lots are already mostly empty all day but nobody cares and they're one of the most expensive things in any town.

But your point leads us to in-fill of existing spaces whenever possible and minimum density requirements for new building. The cheapest roads cost $3 million per mile to pave but in newer builds its usually a couple of homes on a cul-de-sac. A few dozen homes per mile means unsustainable tax bases bankrupting cities almost as fast as police brutality lawsuits.

Fewer cars and more public transportation options means more people can move on less road and contributes less to global warming, is cheaper for towns to build/maintain, and makes it cheaper for residents both in lower taxes (or increased services) and the ability to not own a 2nd car or a car at all.
 
natazha [BareFark]
2023-01-29 6:16:20 PM  
"Multimodal" Sounds like what killed the I5 bridge replacement between Oregon and Washington. Much of the capacity would have been given over to bikes, pedestrians and mass transit, and Washington did not want under any circumstances to be connected to Oregon's Trimet.
 
eurotrader [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 6:16:40 PM  

alienated: eurotrader: edmo: eurotrader: There is no national interest in encouraging population increase or easing traffic concerns in the AZ desert until  the water issues are sorted out along with the rise in temperature.

It's an interstate. Most of the traffic is between California and Texas.

A bypass of all of Phoenix by I 10 starting at case grande and connecting to 85 to 10 is a better and cheaper option. What AZ wants is to allow more suburban sprawl from Phoenix and better access to the Indian casino. I 10 going through phoenix is just a horrible road and can't be reasonably fixed.

Lotsa freight both east and west bound moves on the 10. You expect freight companies and truck capable fueling places to just move ?


The movement of truck freight is benefited by avoiding Phoenix. The big truck stops are already out by Casa Grande. A bypass is preferred by shipping companies and with driverless semi trucks already operating and will increase over time keeping large trucks out of urban areas is a good practice.
 
Kit Fister [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 6:17:49 PM  

Mrtraveler01: As someone who lives not too far from where this happened...

[npr.brightspotcdn.com image 850x637]

I feel like we should prioritize what's already there before focusing on building something new.


...and building it to high standards, not lowest-bidder.
 
UltimaCS
2023-01-29 6:18:16 PM  

Dear Jerk: More roads is not a solution to traffic congestion. Everyone should sit back and think about how absurd it is for almost everybody to live 20 miles from where they work.


The reason is landlords.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
TheMarvelousLibertarian
2023-01-29 6:22:14 PM  
Have the private sector handle it.
 
Gyrfalcon [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 6:25:10 PM  

Mrtraveler01: As someone who lives not too far from where this happened...

[npr.brightspotcdn.com image 850x637]

I feel like we should prioritize what's already there before focusing on building something new.


Won't fixing it kind of involve making a new bridge?
 
guinsu
2023-01-29 6:30:31 PM  

Fissile: The Third Man: weddingsinger: Ideally a person in a town of 50,000 could take a 5 minute walk and catch a free bus to the train station where every hour a ride to a hub city to enjoy the day, a weekend, or get on high speed rail to cross the country for reasonable prices.

I love the idea of rail travel as much as anybody, but rail advocates have to stop concentrating on nationwide high speed rail as a panacea.  Even if a high-speed express connection could be built between--for example--New York City and Los Angeles that averaged 200 mph, that's still a 15-hour journey...and that's assuming a dedicated non-stop service would exist.  And the cost of building the project (not to mention maintenance and personnel costs) would mean ticket prices wouldn't be able to compete with air travel.  Who would pay more to arrive on the other side of the country many hours later?

Regional high-speed rail can be successful.  We know rail travel can be profitable and successful in the Northeast Corridor, so now we have to find solutions for other parts of the country.  But nationwide high-speed rail won't be competitive without massive technological advances.

High speed rail should not be used for long-distance travel.   New York to LA? That's what airplanes are for.  Proper use of high speed rail is for regional transportation in high population density areas.  Boston/New York/DC is where high speed rail works.   We're talking hauls of 300-400 miles tops.  New York to Chicago would be too far.


New York to Chicago passenger trains are already a thing. It's an 800 mile car ride, so a train would be a little bit shorter. At 220mph that's less than 4 hours. From downtown. As opposed to getting out to the airport, dealing with security theater, flying the 90 minutes or so then back in from the airport.
 
austerity101
2023-01-29 6:30:54 PM  

natazha: "Multimodal" Sounds like what killed the I5 bridge replacement between Oregon and Washington. Much of the capacity would have been given over to bikes, pedestrians and mass transit, and Washington did not want under any circumstances to be connected to Oregon's Trimet.


Mostly, they just didn't want to have to pay for it. For some reason Washington expected Oregon to foot the bill.
 
snowshovel
2023-01-29 6:32:38 PM  

edmo: eurotrader: There is no national interest in encouraging population increase or easing traffic concerns in the AZ desert until  the water issues are sorted out along with the rise in temperature.

It's an interstate. Most of the traffic is between California and Texas.


All going to this one casino?
 
Fissile
2023-01-29 6:50:01 PM  

guinsu: New York to Chicago passenger trains are already a thing. It's an 800 mile car ride, so a train would be a little bit shorter. At 220mph that's less than 4 hours. From downtown. As opposed to getting out to the airport, dealing with security theater, flying the 90 minutes or so then back in from the airport.


If the Trump Administration has taught us anything it's that US Muricans don't give a shiat about logic.

The Acela is currently the only 'high speed' rail service in the US.  It hits 160mph along a few stretches of the NEC but it averages about half that for most of the way.  By definition most countries consider this just normal speed rail.   The problem is that most of the alignments in the Northeast were laid out in the mid 19th century and would have to be straightened out to accommodate high speed rail.   Not only does the GOP not want to pay to improve the only profitable Amtrak route, they want it dismantled.

Does this seem fast?  It's about 100mph slower than what civilized countries define as high speed rail.  Nope, can't have it.  Not for you, Murica.

Amtrak Acela II doing 165 MPH at Princeton Junction
Youtube 1RqUM5Ks9tE
 
Mikey1969 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 6:57:55 PM  

Badmoodman: Expanding roads is the wrong way to go. Just as 'water seeks its own level,' expanding roads and making new ones will just add more traffic, more pollution, more congestion.


No.

I lived smack in the middle of this corridor, and I still Ho back to visit friends there every year. There is too much traffic through there. This is an interstate joining two metropolitan areas, and the area was already an issue back in 1990, it's much worse now. Phoenix is growing right up to this area. The reservation is the ONLY thing stopping Phoenix from growing down to Casa Grande, so you not only have 43 years of normal population increase, you also have an expansion focus in that area.

The farking traffic is ALREADY THERE.
 
Qellaqan
2023-01-29 7:16:31 PM  
When I lived in st Louis, the metro population was steady but there were always further and further flung suburbs. They clamored for road upgrades. They moved for cheaper bigger houses and expected the rest of us to subsidize it. And they were of course the most resistant to maintenance on city schools or taxes.
 
Flab [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 7:17:16 PM  

red230: [Fark user image image 199x253]


Fix old, no new.
 
Bennie Crabtree
2023-01-29 7:18:12 PM  
You'd be idiots to expand. Fix the old highways and build along them, if you need to build at all. Your shiatty downtowns are empty now, though, so you have plenty of space to rearrange and rebuild better. Expansion is dipshiattery gone awry, with all the resources you've already got.
 
Bennie Crabtree
2023-01-29 7:27:19 PM  

Flab: red230: [Fark user image image 199x253]

Fix old, no new.


IMO, that is the greatest Fark post of all time, and should be preserved in carbonite, maybe even shot into space as a warning to all intelligent, sentient creatures in the universe. Along with the words, WE DIDNT LISTEN and then a looping video of Donald Trump's bleach injecting lightbulb butt medicine speech from start to the end of the question period.
 
Tarl3k
2023-01-29 7:56:49 PM  

weddingsinger: Yes. Fix the existing roads, remove excess and convert them to tram/train lines, bus only lanes, and bike/walking paths. A person should be able to live in America without owning a car in any town, not just NYC.

Ideally a person in a town of 50,000 could take a 5 minute walk and catch a free bus to the train station where every hour a ride to a hub city to enjoy the day, a weekend, or get on high speed rail to cross the country for reasonable prices.


Yup, I agree with you.  Our dependency on cars is ridiculous in this country.  We need to concentrate on improving our public transportation, and creating high-speed rail lines between the major cities.  The rail system in Europe is *phenomenal*, and we need to be emulating that.

Airlines can either keep up or go extinct like the dinosaurs they are.  High-speed rail would solve SOOO many problems in this country...which is why it's unlikely to happen.
 
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