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(The Motley Fool)   The social security shortfall is because of immigrants. Immigrants not immigrating, but still   (fool.com) divider line
51
    More: Interesting, Retirement, Social Security Administration, Supplemental Security Income, United States, Tax, Social security, United Nations, United States Department of the Treasury  
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3305 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 28 Jan 2023 at 9:41 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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johnryan51 [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-28 4:04:01 PM  
If only there was some way to raise the cap.
 
jasonvatch [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-28 4:07:09 PM  
The real loss to Social Security is all the high-paying jobs having been sent overseas. The people who worked the mills to make the steel. The people who made the cars, and the radios that went in them - and the appliances in the homes. All good-paying jobs that funded Social Security, and the roads.

But those were expensive, Union jobs, you say. True, but those high wages paid high taxes. Your typical McWorker can't support the entire country; they can't even support themselves.

A business must put into circulation enough money to buy it's products, or the system fails. Ways to put money back into use include wages, purchasing goods, utilities, etc. But when the amount put back is insufficient, the government needs to tax to make up the shortfall. The taxes then help pay for the roads and other infrastructure - which should be the main purpose of government: do that which is too expensive for individuals or businesses, but benefit all.
 
theteacher [TotalFark]
2023-01-28 4:09:58 PM  
"Undocumented workers are unable to receive a Social Security number, which means they cannot collect retirement benefits and won't qualify for the program's other protections -- like long-term disability and survivor insurance protection."

But they put into it...right, Mr. Corporation?
 
Kornchex [TotalFark]
2023-01-28 4:12:36 PM  

johnryan51: If only there was some way to raise remove the cap.


Even better.
 
vudukungfu [TotalFark]
2023-01-28 5:48:53 PM  
I paid in.
I want my money back.
fark you, pay me
 
Notabunny [TotalFark]
2023-01-28 6:29:15 PM  

theteacher: "Undocumented workers are unable to receive a Social Security number, which means they cannot collect retirement benefits and won't qualify for the program's other protections -- like long-term disability and survivor insurance protection."

But they put into it...right, Mr. Corporation?


It's not wage theft, it's strategic budget embiggening
 
Marcus Aurelius [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-28 6:32:34 PM  
Incomes over $1 million a year can pick up the slack.  Easily.
 
GardenWeasel [TotalFark]
2023-01-28 7:28:03 PM  
No shiat. Soc Sec is a designed pyramid scheme that only works if the population grows.
 
Rapmaster2000 [TotalFark]
2023-01-28 9:49:18 PM  
frinkiac.comView Full Size
 
suid
2023-01-28 9:50:37 PM  

jasonvatch: But those were expensive, Union jobs, you say. True, but those high wages paid high taxes. Your typical McWorker can't support the entire country; they can't even support themselves.


But that doesn't matter at all to those businesses.  All they care about is their profits and tax breaks (which gooses their executives' pay).  If the rabble get restless, they can always just point and shout "Look! Gay Marriage!" or "Critical Race Theory!", and the crowd goes baying in a new direction.
 
Snarcoleptic_Hoosier
2023-01-28 9:51:04 PM  

johnryan51: If only there was some way to raise the cap.


Let's try building a wall while ignoring that the majority of illegal immigration arrives by plane and overstays a visa!
 
natazha [BareFark]
2023-01-28 9:52:42 PM  

vudukungfu: I paid in.
I want my money back.
fark you, pay me


I agree. I ran the numbers about a decade ago. If I had the money that I and various companies paid into SS and invested it with the same returns I got for my actual savings, I'd be getting 2.5-3 times as much a month. But most people spend every cent they get.* SS was intended to be a supplemental retirement income.

*I've owned six cars in over 50 years of driving. Much of my savings have been "automobile payments" that I didn't make once a car was paid off.
 
farkitallletitend
2023-01-28 9:54:19 PM  

GardenWeasel: No shiat. Soc Sec is a designed pyramid scheme that only works if the population grows.


That's crypto investing.
 
Another Government Employee
2023-01-28 9:59:46 PM  

theteacher: "Undocumented workers are unable to receive a Social Security number, which means they cannot collect retirement benefits and won't qualify for the program's other protections -- like long-term disability and survivor insurance protection."

But they put into it...right, Mr. Corporation?


Depends. Some do use fake SSN's which do contribute, but more often the fully undocumented are on a cash basis with no contributions at all.
 
Tarl3k
2023-01-28 10:02:56 PM  

natazha: vudukungfu: I paid in.
I want my money back.
fark you, pay me

I agree. I ran the numbers about a decade ago. If I had the money that I and various companies paid into SS and invested it with the same returns I got for my actual savings, I'd be getting 2.5-3 times as much a month. But most people spend every cent they get.* SS was intended to be a supplemental retirement income.

*I've owned six cars in over 50 years of driving. Much of my savings have been "automobile payments" that I didn't make once a car was paid off.


Social security is also a safety net for people who become disabled.  I'm one of them.  After suffering an aneurysm in '09, I could have easily ended up being a huge drag on my family.  Instead, I got to get a Bachelor's degree paid for by SSDI, and I've been running a business since I graduated culinary school at the end of 2013.

The social safety net works extremely well, and needs to be protected.  Sure, it might take us bringing out the guillotines to protect it, but that's up to the ultra-wealthy if they want to go that route.
 
minnesotaboy
2023-01-28 10:06:20 PM  
This is part of their fiendish plan.

Block immigration so as to starve Social Security as part of the strategy too kill it.

See you at the Hunger Games, folks!
 
trerro [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-28 10:08:05 PM  
Breaking the system so badly that young people can't afford to have kids means they don't. This means far, far, less new workers are paying into the program.

As TFA says, becoming isolationist means young people aren't coming in that way either.

A shiatload of people are paid so poorly that they aren't paying much into the system.

The US military consumes a large chunk of what should be the budget of well... everything else.

Republicans want poor people to work only as long as they find them useful, then die.

The entire Republican platform is designed to funnel as much money as possible to the top.

Put it all together, and yeah, social security's going to have issues.
 
Mechanicum [TotalFark]
2023-01-28 10:09:13 PM  

Another Government Employee: theteacher: "Undocumented workers are unable to receive a Social Security number, which means they cannot collect retirement benefits and won't qualify for the program's other protections -- like long-term disability and survivor insurance protection."

But they put into it...right, Mr. Corporation?

Depends. Some do use fake SSN's which do contribute, but more often the fully undocumented are on a cash basis with no contributions at all.


......and then no withdrawal either


The cash basis problem in the economy isn't really unique to immigrants
 
Stud Gerbil
2023-01-28 10:11:03 PM  
Good old Pete Peterson and his pals Bill Clinton ... and every president since ... would love to see Social Secuty go away along with Medicare and everything else that helps the 98%
 
farkitallletitend
2023-01-28 10:13:28 PM  
Could raise the earrings cap from its current rate of 128k. Raise it to 1 million and problem solved. They could also raise the minimum of 10 years working to qualify for SS to 12 or 15 years.
 
Autoerotic Defenestration
2023-01-28 10:14:45 PM  

jasonvatch: The real loss to Social Security is all the high-paying jobs having been sent overseas. The people who worked the mills to make the steel. The people who made the cars, and the radios that went in them - and the appliances in the homes. All good-paying jobs that funded Social Security, and the roads.

But those were expensive, Union jobs, you say. True, but those high wages paid high taxes. Your typical McWorker can't support the entire country; they can't even support themselves.

A business must put into circulation enough money to buy it's products, or the system fails. Ways to put money back into use include wages, purchasing goods, utilities, etc. But when the amount put back is insufficient, the government needs to tax to make up the shortfall. The taxes then help pay for the roads and other infrastructure - which should be the main purpose of government: do that which is too expensive for individuals or businesses, but benefit all.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
Stud Gerbil
2023-01-28 10:22:54 PM  

farkitallletitend: Could raise the earrings cap from its current rate of 128k. Raise it to 1 million and problem solved. They could also raise the minimum of 10 years working to qualify for SS to 12 or 15 years.


time to take bolder steps.   Reduce the average life expectency to below 65.   There are a load of ways to do that and they will not inconvenience the wealthy.
 
Hey Nurse! [OhFark]
2023-01-28 10:26:04 PM  
I love how it's "the boomers fault". I paid into that system since 1979. For many of those years, maxing out my social security contribution. I didn't design the system, I didn't have a choice to not participate. It's a pyramid scheme. I pay you today, and you pay me back more tomorrow. It's not my fault some asswipe thought this was a good idea and forced me to play. I played by the rules, now pay me.
 
AlgaeRancher [OhFark]
2023-01-28 10:35:50 PM  

GardenWeasel: No shiat. Soc Sec is a designed pyramid scheme that only works if the population grows.


Or we remove the income cap
 
Fark_Guy_Rob
2023-01-28 10:43:29 PM  

Autoerotic Defenestration: jasonvatch: The real loss to Social Security is all the high-paying jobs having been sent overseas. The people who worked the mills to make the steel. The people who made the cars, and the radios that went in them - and the appliances in the homes. All good-paying jobs that funded Social Security, and the roads.

But those were expensive, Union jobs, you say. True, but those high wages paid high taxes. Your typical McWorker can't support the entire country; they can't even support themselves.

A business must put into circulation enough money to buy it's products, or the system fails. Ways to put money back into use include wages, purchasing goods, utilities, etc. But when the amount put back is insufficient, the government needs to tax to make up the shortfall. The taxes then help pay for the roads and other infrastructure - which should be the main purpose of government: do that which is too expensive for individuals or businesses, but benefit all.

[Fark user image image 500x500]


Those feel like two entirely unrelated claims. The first is about the number of employed Americans making a decent wage in the mills and car factories.

The output from American production can be up or down, independently of the jobs. We have tons of charts and data that show American output steadily increasing for decades, without a corresponding increase in wages

cdn.statcdn.comView Full Size


And also
visualcapitalist.comView Full Size


So, at a glance, we still have far fewer manufacturing type jobs, and certainly the ones we have aren't compensated as well as they were historically.

That doesn't mean our output isn't down. Heck look at farmers. We have lots fewer, but that doesn't mean we grow less food.
 
Fark_Guy_Rob
2023-01-28 10:52:08 PM  
* Far fewer from the peak in the 50s-60s or whatever.
 
GardenWeasel [TotalFark]
2023-01-28 10:58:15 PM  

AlgaeRancher: GardenWeasel: No shiat. Soc Sec is a designed pyramid scheme that only works if the population grows.

Or we remove the income cap


Yes. I should have said as currently designed.
 
DON.MAC [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-28 11:02:30 PM  

Another Government Employee: Depends. Some do use fake SSN's which do contribute, but more often the fully undocumented are on a cash basis with no contributions at all.


Half a century ago a scam was to send in the form with a bad SSN along with the check.  After a year or so the SSA would send a form saying the SSN wasn't correct along with the check and a letter asking that it be resubmitted with the proper SSN.  That was hard to do if you had a temporary worker you couldn't locate anymore.  It worked better with hundreds of seasonal workers.  Since that was never followed up, that money ended up back in the company which was just profit for small businesses at the time.
 
Another Government Employee
2023-01-28 11:19:53 PM  

DON.MAC: Another Government Employee: Depends. Some do use fake SSN's which do contribute, but more often the fully undocumented are on a cash basis with no contributions at all.

Half a century ago a scam was to send in the form with a bad SSN along with the check.  After a year or so the SSA would send a form saying the SSN wasn't correct along with the check and a letter asking that it be resubmitted with the proper SSN.  That was hard to do if you had a temporary worker you couldn't locate anymore.  It worked better with hundreds of seasonal workers.  Since that was never followed up, that money ended up back in the company which was just profit for small businesses at the time.


Yeah, I read about that in my Auditing 2 class in college. Interesting kite.
 
ThieveryCorp
2023-01-28 11:20:30 PM  

suid: jasonvatch: But those were expensive, Union jobs, you say. True, but those high wages paid high taxes. Your typical McWorker can't support the entire country; they can't even support themselves.

But that doesn't matter at all to those businesses.  All they care about is their profits and tax breaks (which gooses their executives' pay).  If the rabble get restless, they can always just point and shout "Look! Gay Marriage!" or "Critical Race Theory!", and the crowd goes baying in a new direction.


"Look, a Nazi!" yelled the rapist.
 
mrparks
2023-01-28 11:29:56 PM  

theteacher: "Undocumented workers are unable to receive a Social Security number, which means they cannot collect retirement benefits and won't qualify for the program's other protections -- like long-term disability and survivor insurance protection."

But they put into it...right, Mr. Corporation?


Assuming their vocational opportunities would provides such benefits at all. To anyone.

Which is VFD.

This is actually the system being built on the exploitation of the workers, and using migrants who don't know any better as cheap fuel to stoke the fires of a country.
 
The Dog Ate My Homework
2023-01-29 12:03:54 AM  
Worsening immigration problem? 🙄
 
HoratioGates
2023-01-29 12:58:31 AM  

jasonvatch: A business must put into circulation enough money to buy it's products, or the system fails. Ways to put money back into use include wages, purchasing goods, utilities, etc. But when the amount put back is insufficient, the government needs to tax to make up the shortfall. The taxes then help pay for the roads and other infrastructure - which should be the main purpose of government: do that which is too expensive for individuals or businesses, but benefit all.


You put socialism in my capitalism.  No, you put capitalism in my socialism.  Can't we just agree Reese's taste awesome?
 
BafflerMeal
2023-01-29 1:22:31 AM  

vudukungfu: I paid in.
I want my money back.
fark you, pay me


You will never get back what you put in.
 
zepillin [BareFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 1:22:48 AM  
growth depend does not ponzi scheme make
 
zepillin [BareFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-29 1:24:41 AM  
 or pyramid for that matter

if that was the case then every enterprise would be such
 
fredbox [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 3:07:39 AM  
Straight from the horse's mouth: it's out of money just about the time I get wheeled out to the curb in front of the cube farm on garbage day. https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n3/v70n3p111.html
 
Fista-Phobia
2023-01-29 3:21:41 AM  
Non-union Reagan?
 
Stud Gerbil
2023-01-29 5:42:07 AM  

BafflerMeal: vudukungfu: I paid in.
I want my money back.
fark you, pay me

You will never get back what you put in.


Challenge accepted.   Been paying in since '75 and I turn 66 next month.   Watch me.   I'll get it all back and then some.
 
LL316
2023-01-29 5:51:34 AM  
Every generation is better than the generation preceding it except Boomers.  They're just awful.
 
hoodiowithtudio
2023-01-29 6:50:04 AM  
Due to mmt, it is no longer a pyramid scheme. It is wasteful but not a pyramid scheme.  The government had no problem printing money for the too big to daily businesses, they just won't do it for you.
 
I-K-Rumba [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 8:03:37 AM  

theteacher: "Undocumented workers are unable to receive a Social Security number, which means they cannot collect retirement benefits and won't qualify for the program's other protections -- like long-term disability and survivor insurance protection."

But they put into it...right, Mr. Corporation?


Well, damnit, we gotta blame someone. And we can't go around blaming the very wealthy......they have feelings too.

And it is right on schedule. Every 2-3 years the social security running out of money pops up. Let's all run around gnashing our teeth, flailing our arms around and wailing and crying. A month from now it will all be over for another 2 or 3 years when it will come up again.
 
Turbo Cojones
2023-01-29 10:32:03 AM  

Another Government Employee: theteacher: "Undocumented workers are unable to receive a Social Security number, which means they cannot collect retirement benefits and won't qualify for the program's other protections -- like long-term disability and survivor insurance protection."

But they put into it...right, Mr. Corporation?

Depends. Some do use fake SSN's which do contribute, but more often the fully undocumented are on a cash basis with no contributions at all.


Nope.  They use ITINs.  That way the employer can take the deduction for the payroll expense.  Cash is passé.
 
Turbo Cojones
2023-01-29 10:35:23 AM  

Stud Gerbil: BafflerMeal: vudukungfu: I paid in.
I want my money back.
fark you, pay me

You will never get back what you put in.

Challenge accepted.   Been paying in since '75 and I turn 66 next month.   Watch me.   I'll get it all back and then some.


you might get back the principal, but not the actual value if you had invested in even a conservative vehicle.
 
Lexx0001 [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 11:06:04 AM  
Social security is really counting on people dying before even starting to collect the benefits. When BatBoy wants to raise the retirement age, it's not because people "want to work longer". That's nothing but a  little joke that they think they're pulling on the people. They should all be retired.
 
Bruscar
2023-01-29 11:20:48 AM  

Hey Nurse!: I love how it's "the boomers fault". I paid into that system since 1979. For many of those years, maxing out my social security contribution. I didn't design the system, I didn't have a choice to not participate. It's a pyramid scheme. I pay you today, and you pay me back more tomorrow. It's not my fault some asswipe thought this was a good idea and forced me to play. I played by the rules, now pay me.


You don't call for removal of the FICA cap or prohibiting Congress from using the SSA as a slush fund. Instead, you slander this vital insurance program as a pyramid scheme while screeching "gimme!" As long as you get yours, right? Fark Gen X and every subsequent generation. They can spend their golden years scrounging through dumpsters for food.

I don't blame the Boomers. I blame you.
 
fredbox [TotalFark]
2023-01-29 2:00:38 PM  

Bruscar: Hey Nurse!: I love how it's "the boomers fault". I paid into that system since 1979. For many of those years, maxing out my social security contribution. I didn't design the system, I didn't have a choice to not participate. It's a pyramid scheme. I pay you today, and you pay me back more tomorrow. It's not my fault some asswipe thought this was a good idea and forced me to play. I played by the rules, now pay me.

You don't call for removal of the FICA cap or prohibiting Congress from using the SSA as a slush fund. Instead, you slander this vital insurance program as a pyramid scheme while screeching "gimme!" As long as you get yours, right? Fark Gen X and every subsequent generation. They can spend their golden years scrounging through dumpsters for food.

I don't blame the Boomers. I blame you.


To be fair, none of us in GenX are surprised, the "We're Spending Our Children's Inheritance" stickers told us they were gonna.
 
NephilimNexus
2023-01-29 2:35:53 PM  
Social Security was always a Ponzi Scheme to begin with.

Back in 1935 the rate was 3.0 per couple and the life expectancy was 60 for men and 64 for women.  So it was assumed that there would always be more people putting money into the pot than people taking money out, and those who did live long enough to actually cash in on it were few in number and didn't last for very long thereafter.

Today the birth rate is 1.78 per couple and the life expectancy for men is 82 and 84 for women. So now we have more people taking money out than putting money in and they're living (and cashing those checks) for 20 years longer.

And also note that modern birth rate is less than a sustainable 2.0.  Without immigration the population in this country will literally shrink away to nothing over time.
 
Johnny Bananapeel [OhFark]
2023-01-29 3:07:58 PM  

jasonvatch: But when the amount put back is insufficient, the government needs to tax to make up the shortfall. The taxes then help pay for the roads and other infrastructure - which should be the main purpose of government: do that which is too expensive for individuals or businesses, but benefit all.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
life of the sausage party
2023-01-29 4:24:22 PM  

NephilimNexus: Social Security was always a Ponzi Scheme to begin with.

Back in 1935 the rate was 3.0 per couple and the life expectancy was 60 for men and 64 for women.  So it was assumed that there would always be more people putting money into the pot than people taking money out, and those who did live long enough to actually cash in on it were few in number and didn't last for very long thereafter.

Today the birth rate is 1.78 per couple and the life expectancy for men is 82 and 84 for women. So now we have more people taking money out than putting money in and they're living (and cashing those checks) for 20 years longer.

And also note that modern birth rate is less than a sustainable 2.0.  Without immigration the population in this country will literally shrink away to nothing over time.


Sounds pretty alarmist. Population probably regulates itself.
 
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