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(Salt Lake Tribune)   "The forests we have today have way too many trees," says advocate for solving Utah's disappearing Great Salt Lake by logging what trees the state has left   (sltrib.com) divider line
    More: Sappy, Utah, Great Salt Lake, Salt Lake City, Utah's water resources, shrinking Great Salt Lake, Water resources, Water conservation, acres of forests  
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924 clicks; posted to STEM » on 22 Jan 2023 at 12:50 AM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



33 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2023-01-21 8:30:16 PM  
Man, talk about missing the forest for the trees.
 
2023-01-21 8:36:11 PM  

Outshined_One: Man, talk about missing the forest for the trees.


Right?
"The planet we live on has way too much oxygen for the creatures living on it."
 
2023-01-21 8:55:08 PM  
WTF assholes, let nature do its thing and quit screwing with it.
 
2023-01-21 9:16:22 PM  
There is unrest in the forest
 
2023-01-21 9:19:06 PM  
Stupidity is a plague that's been with us for a long time
 
2023-01-21 9:21:48 PM  
Basic 8th grade earth science class - mountain forest environments create their own weather via transpiration. The more trees removed, the less mountain rain will occur, and the rain that does occur will run straight off/evaporate in the hot sun in the summer.

i0.wp.comView Full Size
 
2023-01-21 9:35:14 PM  
A guy in my masters class made a similar presentation on the Black Hills and he had a lot of pictures to go with it. He showed old historic photos he dredged up somewhere and compared to that time There were clearly a lot more trees in modern times. This was 35 years ago.

True or not, logging all the timber will not bring more water but it may certainly cause a lot of runoff.
 
2023-01-21 10:24:22 PM  
Perhaps now is the time to put a wall around the state before they start to flee in terror.
 
2023-01-21 11:30:59 PM  
The arsenic dust clouds going through SLC should solve most of the issues over time.
 
2023-01-22 1:00:06 AM  

edmo: A guy in my masters class made a similar presentation on the Black Hills and he had a lot of pictures to go with it. He showed old historic photos he dredged up somewhere and compared to that time There were clearly a lot more trees in modern times. This was 35 years ago.

True or not, logging all the timber will not bring more water but it may certainly cause a lot of runoff.


Modern trees are different as well.
 
2023-01-22 1:11:10 AM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: edmo: A guy in my masters class made a similar presentation on the Black Hills and he had a lot of pictures to go with it. He showed old historic photos he dredged up somewhere and compared to that time There were clearly a lot more trees in modern times. This was 35 years ago.

True or not, logging all the timber will not bring more water but it may certainly cause a lot of runoff.

Modern trees are different as well.


Right, the modern tree is far more concentrated and potent than the trees of your parents and grandparents.
 
2023-01-22 1:25:05 AM  

make me some tea: Basic 8th grade earth science class - mountain forest environments create their own weather via transpiration. The more trees removed, the less mountain rain will occur, and the rain that does occur will run straight off/evaporate in the hot sun in the summer.

[i0.wp.com image 594x365]


Think about the state for a minute.  8th grade?  That diagram is probably forbidden as heresy.
 
2023-01-22 1:39:22 AM  
Isn't their governor literally an alfalfa farmer? Reminds me of a Bible verse... Matthew 7:1-5

I mean, really, I don't think it's a mystery where the water is going.
 
2023-01-22 1:50:29 AM  
The mix of trees has been changing over the last century or so.  The rapid clearing leads to different species blends and that changes the water holding capacity of the area.

Have these people heard the discredited "Rain follows the plow" theory?  I wonder why more leaders aren't pushing that as fact.
 
2023-01-22 2:04:30 AM  

make me some tea: Basic 8th grade earth science class - mountain forest environments create their own weather via transpiration. The more trees removed, the less mountain rain will occur, and the rain that does occur will run straight off/evaporate in the hot sun in the summer.

[i0.wp.com image 594x365]


More trees does not mean healthier trees. The forest service has found time and again that the healthiest forest is one that has trees roughly 6 or more feet apart, because it lets the trees grow properly, and limits the amount of fire fuel on the ground so it has the added perk of keeping fires as ground crawlers instead of crown fires
 
2023-01-22 5:13:02 AM  

DON.MAC: The mix of trees has been changing over the last century or so.  The rapid clearing leads to different species blends and that changes the water holding capacity of the area.

Have these people heard the discredited "Rain follows the plow" theory?  I wonder why more leaders aren't pushing that as fact.


Been changing longer than that.  Adam Smith talked about in in The Wealth of Nationsand cattle grazing.  Where forests had once been a mix, cattle preferentially grazed on hardwood trees and left the pines alone resulting in solid pine forests.
 
2023-01-22 7:13:01 AM  
Wait, wait... are you telling me that to save an unremitting, useless source of water only good for recreational use by polluting gas-powered boats and jet skis, we need to kill off all the trees and turn the land into a hellish desert wasteland?

Sign me up!

/LDS is a mental dysfunction, but then again so is all religion.
 
2023-01-22 7:30:24 AM  
Trees aren't real.

external-content.duckduckgo.comView Full Size
 
2023-01-22 8:20:36 AM  

DON.MAC: Have these people heard the discredited "Rain follows the plow" theory?  I wonder why more leaders aren't pushing that as fact.


Because that would be literally man-made climate change.
 
2023-01-22 9:40:31 AM  
Well, if we'd rake the forest floor, that'd be a start.
 
2023-01-22 9:46:43 AM  

edmo: A guy in my masters class made a similar presentation on the Black Hills and he had a lot of pictures to go with it. He showed old historic photos he dredged up somewhere and compared to that time There were clearly a lot more trees in modern times. This was 35 years ago.

True or not, logging all the timber will not bring more water but it may certainly cause a lot of runoff.


Yes, but these people are taking it way out of context and using it to support some very questionable agendas.

An actual "virgin forest"...like if you went back before European settlement, in most areas would probably have a lot of very large trees which for the most part are well-established and outcompete the smaller trees. The only way smaller trees grow is if existing trees die.

There would be a lot of older, dead trees around...like REALLY old trees, which would be biodegrading and provide nutrition for the soil, as well as quite a diverse habitat for lots of fungi, molds, slime, insects and some ground cover plants. The forest floor would essentially be its own ecosystem.

Occasional forest fires would help to thin out the ground cover a bit, but the larger trees themselves would be largely impervious. A low-intensity forest fire actually helps to strengthen the trees because it fixes a lot of the ground cover plants and any dead, dry wood that's not contributing into carbon, which the trees can use. It also helps to clean off any molds or parasites which might be threatening the trees themselves.

The problem nowadays is we've altered these ecosystems so much that they're not really operating in a natural cycle. Fires are controlled so when they do happen, they're rabid and intense. Logging takes the biggest trees and sometimes dead trees, which removes nutrients and habitat from the forest.

Humans are incredibly destructive and it's coming back to bite us in the ass but denial runs rampant.
 
2023-01-22 10:13:43 AM  

make me some tea: WTF assholes, let nature do its thing and quit screwing with it.


That's kinda the problem. For decades the policy was 'all forest fires should be put out.' but fire is essential the the lifecycle of forests.

So now forests are too thick and laden with underbrush, resulting in bigger, damaging, fires.
 
zez
2023-01-22 11:19:06 AM  

Outshined_One: Man, talk about missing the forest for the trees.


I miss them too, wonder what a second album would have sounded like?

Forest for the Trees - 1 - Dream
Youtube Ujb2pLdMtP4
 
2023-01-22 11:51:09 AM  

khatores: edmo: A guy in my masters class made a similar presentation on the Black Hills and he had a lot of pictures to go with it. He showed old historic photos he dredged up somewhere and compared to that time There were clearly a lot more trees in modern times. This was 35 years ago.

True or not, logging all the timber will not bring more water but it may certainly cause a lot of runoff.

Yes, but these people are taking it way out of context and using it to support some very questionable agendas.

An actual "virgin forest"...like if you went back before European settlement, in most areas would probably have a lot of very large trees which for the most part are well-established and outcompete the smaller trees. The only way smaller trees grow is if existing trees die.

There would be a lot of older, dead trees around...like REALLY old trees, which would be biodegrading and provide nutrition for the soil, as well as quite a diverse habitat for lots of fungi, molds, slime, insects and some ground cover plants. The forest floor would essentially be its own ecosystem.

Occasional forest fires would help to thin out the ground cover a bit, but the larger trees themselves would be largely impervious. A low-intensity forest fire actually helps to strengthen the trees because it fixes a lot of the ground cover plants and any dead, dry wood that's not contributing into carbon, which the trees can use. It also helps to clean off any molds or parasites which might be threatening the trees themselves.

The problem nowadays is we've altered these ecosystems so much that they're not really operating in a natural cycle. Fires are controlled so when they do happen, they're rabid and intense. Logging takes the biggest trees and sometimes dead trees, which removes nutrients and habitat from the forest.

Humans are incredibly destructive and it's coming back to bite us in the ass but denial runs rampant.


There were no "virgin" forests, at least not unless you go back 10k years. Those forests were managed and cultivated for the benefit of the populations using them at the time. They just were much better than the Europeans at doing it in a sustainable fashion since they wouldn't last long if they didn't.
 
2023-01-22 11:59:34 AM  
I seemed to hear a big round of applause from Farkistan  when the Forest Service suggested cutting down all the trees in California to protect us from wildfires.  It was cool then, since you have a house in California.  But since you'd never live in a backwards spot like Utah--what the fark is wrong with those people?  Mormon cretins.

Communist Middleschool Student: make me some tea: WTF assholes, let nature do its thing and quit screwing with it.
That's kinda the problem. For decades the policy was 'all forest fires should be put out.' but fire is essential the the lifecycle of forests.
So now forests are too thick and laden with underbrush, resulting in bigger, damaging, fires.


That's not true either.  I worked for those farkers.  That is the "company line" they have been using for 30 years now to explain the Yellowstone fires, without treading into any potentially hard political territory, and oh look--now everyone in the country repeats it as gospel.  It's not true. Stop saying it.

You want to know why we didn't manage the forests right?  MONEY.  IT'S ALWAYS MONEY.  They couldn't manage millions of acres of forest with a truck and one police officer.  But it didn't matter, because the forests were just there, anyway.   Sometimes they were logged, sometimes they got made into campgrounds, sometimes they just breathed for us--and are thus  worthless, right, Fark?  All those trees, just serving as background for no one's Instagram.  What is the POINT?

Then a couple of other things happened also:  Nice elite types, after making fun of rural rednecks for their entire lives, started feeling a little crowded, as anyone would start to feel when they want everything.  Millions of them   moved into the urban/wildland interface, as it's called, right up against the forests, and now you can't do controlled burns anywhere near THERE.  Or over there, or all of Colorado, just cross it off.  Those people are on their own.

Fark user imageView Full Size


George made a bundle in internet shopping, and he came out here and  built the biggest farking log cabin in Montana, right up against the largest wild area left in the US.  There's an awful lot of pine beetle killed trees up in there, and to a trained eye, George's house looks like a bonfire waiting to happen.  But he don't care. the trees are here for HIS journey into the wild, and they will serve him, as everything is supposed to do, because he's a MAN.

George's house burns down the next year and he says, Why the FARK didn't the Forest Service take care of all these dead trees and undergrowth and make it safe in here?  Ignoring the fact that before he and a couple of others moved in that valley, those fires could have burned that whole area out, and everything could  follow its natural cycle, like the elk that used to live there, but now had to move out so that George and his friends could move in.

So now we just have millions of acres of dead trees, because George and his ilk can't stop taking and barging in and claiming things, and trying to buy the very air out of the sky and make it theirs. What they want, they will get--then blame someone else  when it doesn't work out. Then  expect them to take care of the trappings of their  excessive lifestyle, no matter how much it costs.   You have insurance.

If you don't like the idea of wildfires burning down your house that you built way too close to the elk highway. then you can take your spoiled urban ass back to where you came from, the place where you helped make all those engines of destruction that farked up our forests forever.  It's forever now, with climate change.  We can't fix this,. and you can't wait to blame it all on someone else.  And the government is always good, aren't they?  You can do that forever too.  And you will, rather than look at your own actions.

Thank god Elon ruined the night sky with all those farking satellites, or you wouldn't be able to live way out there like that. Like a real man, who minds his own business and takes care of his own business. But you need to be connected, or you can't watch your stocks.
Pussies. Pussies who don't understand the natural world and don't understand anything.  You're an animal.  Start respecting where you came from, or  you're going to find out what it looks like when nature loses all respect for YOU.

I'm kidding--you are definitely going to find out.  How would you like to handle it? The same way you're doing it now?  Good luck.
 
2023-01-22 12:14:35 PM  
"The trees in our over-grown forests and other non-native, noxious trees along our rivers and streams are consuming trillions of gallons of water that would otherwise flow downstream to the Great Salt Lake. Many of our forests are already in desperate need of tree thinning due to high and extreme fire danger," states Theodore's Jan. 13 letter, which was cosigned by several Yellow Cake members and rural county commissioners.

These people are so well-informed, they don't know the difference between a forest and millions of invasive salt cedar trees--that were introduced by humans and spread by humans.  I know this problem.  I cut down a lot of salt cedar trees.  Tamarisk trees.  You know what?  You can't get rid of them, and they have destroyed the waterways.  They have roots that can outcompete anything else growing there, they love water, and they can deal with the high salt content in the dry lands.

If you go to Moab and see the mess lining the river?  Yeah, that's mostly salt cedar.  None of it used to be there, but now it's everywhere and it follows the water, even into the desert.  I cut down a bunch of salt cedar in the desert that was growing out of an aquifer.  Nothing else could reach that water except that patch of tamarisk.

The Forest Service and every other federal agency does weed control.  It's a big deal, since they know about salt cedar and things like that.  And they haven't made a dent in the salt cedar problem.

But if you all really give a crap about the environment, we could start up crews to go kill salt cedar, and make the world a better place. You could get funding for that.  With enough manpower, we might even be able to clean up some of the worst disasters that we've created, and save the Great Salt Lake, anyway.  Clean up the Moab riverway, so that we can build some more campgrounds for the elites.

Yeah. you're not going to do that, are you?  You're dreaming about your cabin in the urban/wildland interface, where you can escape all this man-made bullshiat.
 
2023-01-22 1:48:18 PM  
have they tried raking?
th.bing.comView Full Size
 
2023-01-22 2:24:47 PM  

cryinoutloud: "The trees in our over-grown forests and other non-native, noxious trees along our rivers and streams are consuming trillions of gallons of water that would otherwise flow downstream to the Great Salt Lake. Many of our forests are already in desperate need of tree thinning due to high and extreme fire danger," states Theodore's Jan. 13 letter, which was cosigned by several Yellow Cake members and rural county commissioners.

These people are so well-informed, they don't know the difference between a forest and millions of invasive salt cedar trees--that were introduced by humans and spread by humans.  I know this problem.  I cut down a lot of salt cedar trees.  Tamarisk trees.  You know what?  You can't get rid of them, and they have destroyed the waterways.  They have roots that can outcompete anything else growing there, they love water, and they can deal with the high salt content in the dry lands.

If you go to Moab and see the mess lining the river?  Yeah, that's mostly salt cedar.  None of it used to be there, but now it's everywhere and it follows the water, even into the desert.  I cut down a bunch of salt cedar in the desert that was growing out of an aquifer.  Nothing else could reach that water except that patch of tamarisk.

The Forest Service and every other federal agency does weed control.  It's a big deal, since they know about salt cedar and things like that.  And they haven't made a dent in the salt cedar problem.

But if you all really give a crap about the environment, we could start up crews to go kill salt cedar, and make the world a better place. You could get funding for that.  With enough manpower, we might even be able to clean up some of the worst disasters that we've created, and save the Great Salt Lake, anyway.  Clean up the Moab riverway, so that we can build some more campgrounds for the elites.

Yeah. you're not going to do that, are you?  You're dreaming about your cabin in the urban/wildland interface, where you can escape all this man-made bullshiat.


What is your recommendation? What action would you endorse for us to take to make things better?
 
2023-01-22 4:22:09 PM  

cryinoutloud: "The trees in our over-grown forests and other non-native, noxious trees along our rivers and streams are consuming trillions of gallons of water that would otherwise flow downstream to the Great Salt Lake. Many of our forests are already in desperate need of tree thinning due to high and extreme fire danger," states Theodore's Jan. 13 letter, which was cosigned by several Yellow Cake members and rural county commissioners.

These people are so well-informed, they don't know the difference between a forest and millions of invasive salt cedar trees--that were introduced by humans and spread by humans.  I know this problem.  I cut down a lot of salt cedar trees.  Tamarisk trees.  You know what?  You can't get rid of them, and they have destroyed the waterways.  They have roots that can outcompete anything else growing there, they love water, and they can deal with the high salt content in the dry lands.

If you go to Moab and see the mess lining the river?  Yeah, that's mostly salt cedar.  None of it used to be there, but now it's everywhere and it follows the water, even into the desert.  I cut down a bunch of salt cedar in the desert that was growing out of an aquifer.  Nothing else could reach that water except that patch of tamarisk.

The Forest Service and every other federal agency does weed control.  It's a big deal, since they know about salt cedar and things like that.  And they haven't made a dent in the salt cedar problem.

But if you all really give a crap about the environment, we could start up crews to go kill salt cedar, and make the world a better place. You could get funding for that.  With enough manpower, we might even be able to clean up some of the worst disasters that we've created, and save the Great Salt Lake, anyway.  Clean up the Moab riverway, so that we can build some more campgrounds for the elites.

Yeah. you're not going to do that, are you?  You're dreaming about your cabin in the urban/wildland interface, where you can escape all this man-made bullshiat.


It sounds like it's been awhile since you visited Southern Utah. Those salt cedar trees are pretty torn up these days. Something about an imported beetle.
 
2023-01-22 6:55:07 PM  

dryknife: Trees aren't real.

[external-content.duckduckgo.com image 474x606]


Triggering spike protein production just looking at that

Soon I will have sufficient numbers to use them to defeat my enemies in cell-shredding waves of nanoscale barbules
 
2023-01-22 10:10:38 PM  
Looks like trees are the new enemy in Utah, who knew? I guess they're just taking up too much space and hogging all the water. But don't worry, the Yellow Cake Caucus has got this under control. They're planning to log the hell out of the forests, because nothing says "saving the environment" like cutting down trees. I can't wait to see the Great Salt Lake restored to its former glory, or at least the glory of the 1800s when there were like 10 trees per acre. #SaveTheSaltLake #TreeGuzzlers
 
2023-01-23 12:55:23 AM  

Communist Middleschool Student: thick and laden with underbrush, resulting in bigger


Fark is not your personal erotica site.
 
2023-01-23 11:09:45 AM  
"Claiming "overgrown" forests are guzzling Utah's water resources dry, rural members are now calling for a major logging initiative as the best hope for saving the shrinking Great Salt Lake and Lake Powell, despite a lack of scientific evidence that tree removal would make a big difference."

It's the people that are farking shat up. The forests take what they are supposed to and no more, and they were there first. Deal with it.
 
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