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(CNN)   Damar Hamlin was resuscitated once on the field, yes. But what about second resuscitation?   (cnn.com) divider line
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    More: Followup, National Football League, Buffalo Bills safety Damar Hamlin, Cincinnati, Monday night's game, NFL's Russell Wilson, open field tackle of Cincinnati Bengals, University of Cincinnati Medical Center, wide receiver Tee Higgins  
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766 clicks; posted to Sports » on 04 Jan 2023 at 10:00 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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FarkingReading
2023-01-04 9:57:31 AM  
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Another Government Employee
2023-01-04 10:10:48 AM  
Ooh. Going unstable twice is not a good long term prognosis.
 
king of vegas
2023-01-04 10:18:54 AM  
Almost feels like we may not be getting the full story.
 
I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-04 10:20:23 AM  
FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.
 
NeoCortex42 [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 10:23:40 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.


He's definitely in a "Even if he survives, he'll never be quite the same" situation here.
 
I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-04 10:26:00 AM  
Proning in compromised lungs - if there's fluid in the lungs, the parts of the lungs with fluid can't get oxygen. The idea of putting the patient on their stomach is the lung isn't symmetrical, on your stomach, the fluid should move to the front part of the lung (nearest the chest wall) which is smaller than the back part, thus freeing up more contiguous volume for gas transfer.

In cases where there's more respiratory distress involved (like ARDS and severe pneumonia/COVID/etc) you also use a low pressure low tidal volume vent to limit the damage the ventilator can do the lungs. The problem is this tends to spike blood CO2, which makes your brain scream that it can't breathe.

So the other part of this - prone, low tidal volume ventilation - is to sedate the hell out of the patient so their brain doesn't scream about needing to breathe.

I don't know if they're running the full compromised lung treatment, but this says they're proning and other reports say he's been placed into a coma, so that's two thirds of it.

/Chief Giggling Officer
 
I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-04 10:28:04 AM  

NeoCortex42: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.

He's definitely in a "Even if he survives, he'll never be quite the same" situation here.


When Jay Bowmeester collapsed on the Blue's Bench in 2019...that pretty much signaled the end of his career. (His issue was a heart pacing issue and he ended up with a pacemaker.)

\ Yes, the Blues have had two guys just drop during a game.
\\ Pronger did in ...1998? Took a puck to the chest and his heart turned off.
 
SVC_conservative [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 10:31:56 AM  

NeoCortex42: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.

He's definitely in a "Even if he survives, he'll never be quite the same" situation here.


He's under 48 hours since collapse, Docs won't have a better picture until about 72-96. Anything up until then is really speculation. Heart failure and afib is really common post-resuscitation, but can be fixed with time and implanted devices. People go on to live normal lives with little disruption after a sudden cardiac arrest when they get the treatment and support they need early- lets hope that happens.
 
Klivian
2023-01-04 10:34:12 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.


Not really, it's SOP for long term intubation. They do it with COVID patients too. It is totally unrelated to his prognosis.

It's not good news either, but there is no addition information to be gleaned about his condition from this news
 
question_dj [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 10:35:10 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.


This sounds more and more like arterial dissection + stroke.
 
Glockenspiel Hero [OhFark]
2023-01-04 10:41:09 AM  
Don't know how to embed tweets, but there was a comment an hour ago or so that the docs saw some "promising readings" overnight.  No mention of what those are, but at least sounds a little better

I wondering how the weekend games are going to go if he's still on a respirator.  I can see a lot of players really not into playing in that case
 
Derek Force
2023-01-04 10:43:16 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.


But it comes with a free frogurt
 
optikeye [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 10:49:39 AM  
Isn't this the second time this has happened in as many years?
 
Galileo's Daughter
2023-01-04 10:52:41 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.


One of the complications of traumatic thoracic injuries is blood in the lungs (hemothorax). I wonder if the cardiac arrest he suffered was caused by aortic dissection.
 
SVC_conservative [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 10:58:58 AM  

Galileo's Daughter: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.

One of the complications of traumatic thoracic injuries is blood in the lungs (hemothorax). I wonder if the cardiac arrest he suffered was caused by aortic dissection.


One of the most common causes of atheletic cardiac arrests is Hypertrophy / cardiomyopathy, which could absolutely produce failure that needed this intervention
 
Runaround
2023-01-04 10:59:24 AM  

Glockenspiel Hero: Don't know how to embed tweets, but there was a comment an hour ago or so that the docs saw some "promising readings" overnight.  No mention of what those are, but at least sounds a little better

I wondering how the weekend games are going to go if he's still on a respirator.  I can see a lot of players really not into playing in that case


Before the cancer got her, Mrs. Runaround was on a ventilator due to complications from pneumonia. Over time they saw that she needed less oxygen support and lower pressures to breathe. They worked on the process to wean her off the machine. That's probably the promising readings they are seeing.
 
Sword and Shield [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 10:59:35 AM  

question_dj: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.

This sounds more and more like arterial dissection + stroke.


Unlikely.

Aortic dissection, at least traumatic, requires something on the level of getting hit by a car. You need utterly insane amounts of force, and what I saw for the hit doesn't look strong enough.
 
FarkingReading
2023-01-04 11:01:24 AM  

optikeye: Isn't this the second time this has happened in as many years?


I don't think so.

You're probably having one of those pandemic-induced false memory/time disorientation moments. Seriously.
 
optikeye [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 11:06:03 AM  

FarkingReading: optikeye: Isn't this the second time this has happened in as many years?

I don't think so.

You're probably having one of those pandemic-induced false memory/time disorientation moments. Seriously.


Ahh...you're probably suffering from one of those pandemic induced bouts of terminal assholishness.

https://people.com/sports/new-jersey-high-school-football-player-dies-after-traumatic-head-injury-worst-fear-came-true/

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/02/sports/football/damar-hamlin-bills-hiat.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/09/29/tua-tagovailoa-dolphins-bengals/

/is responsible for canceling that show you really liked
 
phimuskapsi [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-04 11:07:56 AM  

Runaround: Glockenspiel Hero: Don't know how to embed tweets, but there was a comment an hour ago or so that the docs saw some "promising readings" overnight.  No mention of what those are, but at least sounds a little better

I wondering how the weekend games are going to go if he's still on a respirator.  I can see a lot of players really not into playing in that case

Before the cancer got her, Mrs. Runaround was on a ventilator due to complications from pneumonia. Over time they saw that she needed less oxygen support and lower pressures to breathe. They worked on the process to wean her off the machine. That's probably the promising readings they are seeing.


We've also heard they have lowered the amount of oxygen they are giving him, because his body is responding to treatment.

The only good thing Damar has going for himself is his athleticism, his overall body health was about as good as you could ask for before the injury.
 
phimuskapsi [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-04 11:08:34 AM  

optikeye: FarkingReading: optikeye: Isn't this the second time this has happened in as many years?

I don't think so.

You're probably having one of those pandemic-induced false memory/time disorientation moments. Seriously.

Ahh...you're probably suffering from one of those pandemic induced bouts of terminal assholishness.

https://people.com/sports/new-jersey-high-school-football-player-dies-after-traumatic-head-injury-worst-fear-came-true/

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/02/sports/football/damar-hamlin-bills-hiat.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/09/29/tua-tagovailoa-dolphins-bengals/


Those are not the same
 
SVC_conservative [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 11:08:52 AM  

optikeye: FarkingReading: optikeye: Isn't this the second time this has happened in as many years?

I don't think so.

You're probably having one of those pandemic-induced false memory/time disorientation moments. Seriously.

Ahh...you're probably suffering from one of those pandemic induced bouts of terminal assholishness.

https://people.com/sports/new-jersey-high-school-football-player-dies-after-traumatic-head-injury-worst-fear-came-true/

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/02/sports/football/damar-hamlin-bills-hiat.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/09/29/tua-tagovailoa-dolphins-bengals/


This is the first time in memory that a player suffered a cardiac arrest in front of a nationwide audience. It has happened on regional tv, but there are a lot of co-survivors out there right now which has never been seen before.
 
pissnmoan
2023-01-04 11:13:17 AM  

Sword and Shield: question_dj: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.

This sounds more and more like arterial dissection + stroke.

Unlikely.

Aortic dissection, at least traumatic, requires something on the level of getting hit by a car. You need utterly insane amounts of force, and what I saw for the hit doesn't look strong enough.


This is correct.  Ventricular hypertrophy is possible and could cause Ventricular Tachycardia from many causes including heavy athletic exertion.  V-tach is technically not cardiac arrest and is amenable to treatment by defibrillation (reports indicate successful defibrillation by emergency personnel on the football field).  Respiratory complications could be result of resuscitation efforts (respiratory support before intubation) and subsequent inhalation of emesis.  This would explain continued need for respiratory support and sedation.  Second bout of V-tach (in hospital) could be result of same cause as first  V-tach episode (irritable cardiac muscle) or perhaps patient had an actual myocardial infarction causing first episode.  Etc, Etc..........this is all poorly sourced conjecture and is likely not accurate in one or all ways.
 
phimuskapsi [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-04 11:19:32 AM  

SVC_conservative: This is the first time in memory that a player suffered a cardiac arrest in front of a nationwide audience. It has happened on regional tv, but there are a lot of co-survivors out there right now which has never been seen before.


It's pretty amazing how widespread the effect was from this, and it's why it's just living in the news cycle right now. Basically tens of millions of people want to know that they didn't watch someone die live on TV; for lots of individual reasons. Trauma to millions.

It's also fairly heartening to see the response afterwards. Literally hundreds of thousands of people have sent cards, money, flowers, or held prayer vigils. It's the kind of unification you want to see.
 
meanmutton
2023-01-04 11:20:19 AM  

optikeye: FarkingReading: optikeye: Isn't this the second time this has happened in as many years?

I don't think so.

You're probably having one of those pandemic-induced false memory/time disorientation moments. Seriously.

Ahh...you're probably suffering from one of those pandemic induced bouts of terminal assholishness.

https://people.com/sports/new-jersey-high-school-football-player-dies-after-traumatic-head-injury-worst-fear-came-true/

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/02/sports/football/damar-hamlin-bills-hiat.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/09/29/tua-tagovailoa-dolphins-bengals/


So, no, it isn't the second time this has happened in two years.
 
optikeye [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 11:28:11 AM  

SVC_conservative: This is the first time in memory that a player suffered a cardiac arrest in front of a nationwide audience. It has happened on regional tv, but there are a lot of co-survivors out there right now which has never been seen before.


So it's not real if it doesn't happen on PayPerView.
Fascinating.
 
Trocadero
2023-01-04 11:28:34 AM  
I was being hopeful, I literally watched Christian Eriksen yesterday, and remembered how he was dead on the field less than two years ago. I thought this might be something similar, but now it's sounding worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Eriksen#UEFA_Euro_2020_cardiac_arrest
 
wrenchboy [BareFark]
2023-01-04 11:30:55 AM  

king of vegas: Almost feels like we may not be getting the full story.


Just my opinion but uncle sharing so much medical information is kinda trashy. Demar can't speak for himself so his uncle shouldn't speak for him. Just basic info should be enough.
 
optikeye [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 11:32:47 AM  

Trocadero: I was being hopeful, I literally watched Christian Eriksen yesterday, and remembered how he was dead on the field less than two years ago. I thought this might be something similar, but now it's sounding worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Eriksen#UEFA_Euro_2020_cardiac_arrest


Yeah...but did that happen after a snickers commercial, during a wolf moon, on ABC/ESPC.
Because That. Does. Not. Count.
And it's not even American Football.  Pffft.
 
Eddie Hazel's E string
2023-01-04 11:33:28 AM  

optikeye: SVC_conservative: This is the first time in memory that a player suffered a cardiac arrest in front of a nationwide audience. It has happened on regional tv, but there are a lot of co-survivors out there right now which has never been seen before.

So it's not real if it doesn't happen on PayPerView.
Fascinating.


Are you farking kidding, optikeye?

First you say this has already happened in recent years, someone makes a genuine reply to your comment, and you snap into being rude. Then you link to other stories that do not involve cardiac arrest or pro football. Now you're moving the goalposts a second time, again being smarmy.

I notice you didn't offer any sympathy or good wishes to the injured athletes, either.

/Head of UFO Investigations
 
madgonad [OhFark]
2023-01-04 11:35:59 AM  
The lung issues don't make a whole lot of sense. He wasn't hit hard enough to cause damage to the lungs or any of the pulmonary arteries/veins. He was hiat hard enough to alter his heart rhythm and cause a heart attack or afib. Blood in his lungs and requiring pure O2 suggest trauma in his lungs. I'm starting to wonder how long his heart stopped or was irregular before someone noticed and started compression. Way to early to start pointing fingers though.
 
SVC_conservative [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 11:37:39 AM  

madgonad: The lung issues don't make a whole lot of sense. He wasn't hit hard enough to cause damage to the lungs or any of the pulmonary arteries/veins. He was hiat hard enough to alter his heart rhythm and cause a heart attack or afib. Blood in his lungs and requiring pure O2 suggest trauma in his lungs. I'm starting to wonder how long his heart stopped or was irregular before someone noticed and started compression. Way to early to start pointing fingers though.


The big difference, I can imagine, between care here and care with Erikson's arrest is the obvious need to remove pads and jersey.
It's also not uncommon to have heart failure post resuscitation- excess fluid pumped in via an IV, poor circulation, etc. Again, still in a wait-and-see timeframe, all of this is speculation still.
 
bigbadideasinaction
2023-01-04 11:56:50 AM  

king of vegas: Almost feels like we may not be getting the full story.


And we are owed the full story right now because...?
 
madgonad [OhFark]
2023-01-04 11:58:28 AM  

SVC_conservative: madgonad: The lung issues don't make a whole lot of sense. He wasn't hit hard enough to cause damage to the lungs or any of the pulmonary arteries/veins. He was hiat hard enough to alter his heart rhythm and cause a heart attack or afib. Blood in his lungs and requiring pure O2 suggest trauma in his lungs. I'm starting to wonder how long his heart stopped or was irregular before someone noticed and started compression. Way to early to start pointing fingers though.

The big difference, I can imagine, between care here and care with Erikson's arrest is the obvious need to remove pads and jersey.
It's also not uncommon to have heart failure post resuscitation- excess fluid pumped in via an IV, poor circulation, etc. Again, still in a wait-and-see timeframe, all of this is speculation still.


I also thought about trauma from resuscitation. Broken ribs that can puncture lungs isn't really rare with CPR.
 
pissnmoan
2023-01-04 11:59:41 AM  

madgonad: The lung issues don't make a whole lot of sense. He wasn't hit hard enough to cause damage to the lungs or any of the pulmonary arteries/veins. He was hiat hard enough to alter his heart rhythm and cause a heart attack or afib. Blood in his lungs and requiring pure O2 suggest trauma in his lungs. I'm starting to wonder how long his heart stopped or was irregular before someone noticed and started compression. Way to early to star t pointing fingers though.


A common complication of resuscitation is aspiration pneumonia.  Aspiration pneumonia can be life threatening as an entirely separate issue.  This happens when air is forced into the lungs during supported breathing.  This same forced breathing situation can also force air into the esophagus/stomach.  Typically, the patient is lying flat and, at the same time, intermittent heavy force is being placed on the sternum which may also increase pressure to the stomach which may well become overfilled with stomach contents (very acidic and loaded with unhelpful bacteria) and air from respiratory support efforts.  The acidic contents of the stomach may be vomited into the oropharynx and then pushed into the lungs during assisted breathing.  Avoiding aspiration pneumonia is one very good reason to intubate (insert breathing tube) early in resuscitation.  Early intubation is not always possible due to limitations on equipment availability or lack of training/certification of emergency personnel.  I saw somewhere that emergency personnel were at this victim's side in 10-15 seconds....that's a good thing.  What they did after that is presently unknown.  However, we can expect that the emergency personnel knew what they should be doing.........whether they did those things or not is unclear.
 
stevecore
2023-01-04 11:59:47 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.


This is normal in the ICU. You can't just take people off being on a vent. You gotta wean them off slowly till their lungs are strong enough to work on their own
 
Magorn [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 12:21:32 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.


If Sword and Shield is around he can weigh in with real expertise, but everything I know about trauma protocols tells me that the 30-minute delay before the ambulance took him the two miles to the Level 1 Trauma Center means something was *REALLY* wrong and he wasn't stable enough to move
 
Theaetetus
2023-01-04 12:24:39 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: In cases where there's more respiratory distress involved (like ARDS and severe pneumonia/COVID/etc) you also use a low pressure low tidal volume vent to limit the damage the ventilator can do the lungs.


Why do ventilators damage the lungs?
 
zoltan2000
2023-01-04 12:29:58 PM  

Eddie Hazel's E string: optikeye: SVC_conservative: This is the first time in memory that a player suffered a cardiac arrest in front of a nationwide audience. It has happened on regional tv, but there are a lot of co-survivors out there right now which has never been seen before.

So it's not real if it doesn't happen on PayPerView.
Fascinating.

Are you farking kidding, optikeye?

First you say this has already happened in recent years, someone makes a genuine reply to your comment, and you snap into being rude. Then you link to other stories that do not involve cardiac arrest or pro football. Now you're moving the goalposts a second time, again being smarmy.

I notice you didn't offer any sympathy or good wishes to the injured athletes, either.


It seems pretty obvious optikeye is lining up some conspiracy theory nonsense. These athletes are just props that can be cherry picked for a nutcase narrative.

There was one of these on reddit yesterday spreading a rumor that Damar's family was going to sue the NFL for their vaccine policies.

Hoping for a full and speedy recovery.
 
Pfighting Polish
2023-01-04 1:13:23 PM  

madgonad: I also thought about trauma from resuscitation. Broken ribs that can puncture lungs isn't really rare with CPR.


This was my first thought with regards to lung/breathing issues. It's been discussed just how violently one has to push with CPR to make it work under normal circumstances. This was a large, bulky athlete -- and yes, DBs only look small in comparison to the other players they're on the field with; Hamlin is still a 6', 200 pound guy who's basically entirely lean muscle, as you have to be in the NFL. I assume it took a heck of a lot of force, for what they were saying was 8-10 minutes, to work through the chest of a guy who was probably pretty well-defined. Broken ribs puncturing lungs seem very plausible.

pissnmoan: Avoiding aspiration pneumonia is one very good reason to intubate (insert breathing tube) early in resuscitation.  Early intubation is not always possible due to limitations on equipment availability or lack of training/certification of emergency personnel.  I saw somewhere that emergency personnel were at this victim's side in 10-15 seconds....that's a good thing.  What they did after that is presently unknown.  However, we can expect that the emergency personnel knew what they should be doing.........whether they did those things or not is unclear.


How early can you do it, though? I am not a doctor or in medicine in any way, so this question is more as I try to seek knowledge about what happens. Can you use the AED on someone intubated or is that running a risk somehow? It seems like this was all so touchy.

Magorn: If Sword and Shield is around he can weigh in with real expertise, but everything I know about trauma protocols tells me that the 30-minute delay before the ambulance took him the two miles to the Level 1 Trauma Center means something was *REALLY* wrong and he wasn't stable enough to move


I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not this was good or bad. I've heard that, if the situation was worse -- hard to imagine, but I suppose they could have not gotten his heart restarted at all -- they would have rushed him to the hospital. I also can see how, if he was in need of truly immediate care, they would have felt the need to do it on the spot.

I dunno. I'm trying to take in as much reputable info as I can about this, as I do feel like this may be a game-changing moment for American sports in general. The question, to me, is if this is going to be sold as a flukish thing that, with some study, can be prevented and/or better treated going forward, which I think will be the case if the commotio cordis discussion is on point, or if this starts to bring into question football on the whole.

It's a singular moment.
 
Gonzo317
2023-01-04 1:13:35 PM  

madgonad: SVC_conservative: madgonad: The lung issues don't make a whole lot of sense. He wasn't hit hard enough to cause damage to the lungs or any of the pulmonary arteries/veins. He was hiat hard enough to alter his heart rhythm and cause a heart attack or afib. Blood in his lungs and requiring pure O2 suggest trauma in his lungs. I'm starting to wonder how long his heart stopped or was irregular before someone noticed and started compression. Way to early to start pointing fingers though.

The big difference, I can imagine, between care here and care with Erikson's arrest is the obvious need to remove pads and jersey.
It's also not uncommon to have heart failure post resuscitation- excess fluid pumped in via an IV, poor circulation, etc. Again, still in a wait-and-see timeframe, all of this is speculation still.

I also thought about trauma from resuscitation. Broken ribs that can puncture lungs isn't really rare with CPR.


My wife is an RN who worked in both the ER and Cardiac Intensive Care units, she told me years ago that it pretty common to break ribs if you are doing CPR correctly.
 
phimuskapsi [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-04 1:17:25 PM  

Pfighting Polish: madgonad: I also thought about trauma from resuscitation. Broken ribs that can puncture lungs isn't really rare with CPR.

This was my first thought with regards to lung/breathing issues. It's been discussed just how violently one has to push with CPR to make it work under normal circumstances. This was a large, bulky athlete -- and yes, DBs only look small in comparison to the other players they're on the field with; Hamlin is still a 6', 200 pound guy who's basically entirely lean muscle, as you have to be in the NFL. I assume it took a heck of a lot of force, for what they were saying was 8-10 minutes, to work through the chest of a guy who was probably pretty well-defined. Broken ribs puncturing lungs seem very plausible.

pissnmoan: Avoiding aspiration pneumonia is one very good reason to intubate (insert breathing tube) early in resuscitation.  Early intubation is not always possible due to limitations on equipment availability or lack of training/certification of emergency personnel.  I saw somewhere that emergency personnel were at this victim's side in 10-15 seconds....that's a good thing.  What they did after that is presently unknown.  However, we can expect that the emergency personnel knew what they should be doing.........whether they did those things or not is unclear.

How early can you do it, though? I am not a doctor or in medicine in any way, so this question is more as I try to seek knowledge about what happens. Can you use the AED on someone intubated or is that running a risk somehow? It seems like this was all so touchy.

Magorn: If Sword and Shield is around he can weigh in with real expertise, but everything I know about trauma protocols tells me that the 30-minute delay before the ambulance took him the two miles to the Level 1 Trauma Center means something was *REALLY* wrong and he wasn't stable enough to move

I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not this was good or bad. I've heard that, if the situation was worse -- hard to imagine, but I suppose they could have not gotten his heart restarted at all -- they would have rushed him to the hospital. I also can see how, if he was in need of truly immediate care, they would have felt the need to do it on the spot.

I dunno. I'm trying to take in as much reputable info as I can about this, as I do feel like this may be a game-changing moment for American sports in general. The question, to me, is if this is going to be sold as a flukish thing that, with some study, can be prevented and/or better treated going forward, which I think will be the case if the commotio cordis discussion is on point, or if this starts to bring into question football on the whole.

It's a singular moment.


One suggestion I've seen is a plate over the heart area, kind of like how knights used to have for lancing tournaments but obviously smaller and not metal lol.

Though IIRC shoulder pads come pretty far down as is.
 
Pfighting Polish
2023-01-04 1:42:49 PM  

phimuskapsi: One suggestion I've seen is a plate over the heart area, kind of like how knights used to have for lancing tournaments but obviously smaller and not metal lol.

Though IIRC shoulder pads come pretty far down as is.


Commotio cordis is not a new phenomenon.

Fark user imageView Full Size


Setting aside the implied terrible hand-eye coordination of the kid shown being at a level that makes me think baseball isn't in his future, I remember there being some hand-wringing about Little League after a well-publicized case of a child being killed when hit in the chest with a baseball. That was around the time they started selling the above product.

It looks like they've come up with a more streamlined version since then, too.


Fark user imageView Full Size


They say it doesn't restrict movement, but I'm sorry, anytime I'm wearing anything, I feel it moving and shifting and whatnot and it's on my mind. Against better wisdom, I played without a cup. At 5'6 and with no speed, I already had enough disadvantages without a piece of plastic and rubber bumping my thighs every time I ran.

Furthermore, in comparison with football pads, the above doesn't look like it offers that much more protection.

Fark user imageView Full Size


Much the way, even with the best padding and with no contact to the head, you can still get a concussion from the mere whiplash of a hit, it seems like you can plausibly still have a commotio cordis incident with even the best padding with the biggest of hits in just the right places.

Seems like the kind of thing we're going to need some studies on going forward after something so visible.
 
optikeye [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 2:10:05 PM  

Pfighting Polish: It looks like they've come up with a more streamlined version since then, too.


They might as well draw a target on it. Some kids would take that as a challenge.
 
Trocadero
2023-01-04 2:38:15 PM  

optikeye: Pfighting Polish: It looks like they've come up with a more streamlined version since then, too.

They might as well draw a target on it. Some kids would take that as a challenge.


To be fair, when you're throwing it to home plate to tag the runner out, that's exactly where you throw it.
 
Pfighting Polish
2023-01-04 2:43:34 PM  

optikeye: They might as well draw a target on it. Some kids would take that as a challenge.


Like almost all other padding, it's meant to be worn under the uniform. You don't see kids running around wearing their cups on the outside.

I can see it being useful for kids who have some sort of congenital heart defect where extra protection might be the difference between playing and not playing.

For the vast majority of ballplaying kids, it's probably unnecessary, save the children of the most paranoid parents, truly awful fielders, or kids who play on awful fields and take terrible hops, which is rare nowadays.
 
anthrax442
2023-01-04 3:15:40 PM  

pissnmoan: Sword and Shield: question_dj: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.

This sounds more and more like arterial dissection + stroke.

Unlikely.

Aortic dissection, at least traumatic, requires something on the level of getting hit by a car. You need utterly insane amounts of force, and what I saw for the hit doesn't look strong enough.

This is correct.  Ventricular hypertrophy is possible and could cause Ventricular Tachycardia from many causes including heavy athletic exertion.  V-tach is technically not cardiac arrest and is amenable to treatment by defibrillation (reports indicate successful defibrillation by emergency personnel on the football field).  Respiratory complications could be result of resuscitation efforts (respiratory support before intubation) and subsequent inhalation of emesis.  This would explain continued need for respiratory support and sedation.  Second bout of V-tach (in hospital) could be result of same cause as first  V-tach episode (irritable cardiac muscle) or perhaps patient had an actual myocardial infarction causing first episode.  Etc, Etc..........this is all poorly sourced conjecture and is likely not accurate in one or all ways.


So, I get that normally Aortic dissection would require some sort of dangerous impact, but Richie Faulker of Judas Priest had this happen to him while he was on stage about a year ago, and he was just playing a guitar solo.  Could he have had some sort of defect that combined with the impact or the CPR that caused it?
 
phimuskapsi [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2023-01-04 3:18:45 PM  

Pfighting Polish: They say it doesn't restrict movement, but I'm sorry, anytime I'm wearing anything, I feel it moving and shifting and whatnot and it's on my mind. Against better wisdom, I played without a cup. At 5'6 and with no speed, I already had enough disadvantages without a piece of plastic and rubber bumping my thighs every time I ran.


In baseball I was always told that only the catcher was a mandatory cup wearer, makes sense too, the chances of anyone else getting hit in the sausage is pretty low.

Pfighting Polish: Setting aside the implied terrible hand-eye coordination of the kid shown being at a level that makes me think baseball isn't in his future,


This made me laugh harder than it should have.
 
IsThatYourFinalAnswer
2023-01-04 3:58:15 PM  

Magorn: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.

If Sword and Shield is around he can weigh in with real expertise, but everything I know about trauma protocols tells me that the 30-minute delay before the ambulance took him the two miles to the Level 1 Trauma Center means something was *REALLY* wrong and he wasn't stable enough to move


It's exactly the opposite of what you're thinking. If someone is that medically unstable, we scoop and run, and do as many Interventions as we can en route. It's very difficult to do rolling Interventions.

If someone is sick but otherwise stable, we will stay and play, getting early Interventions done before we hit the ER.

Post ROSC resuscitation is a big deal, and the faster you can get it done the better. You'll want pressors set up and ready, multiple IVs, good clean 12 leads, optimal sedation....My area even has a post ROSC protocol where we won't even put the person on the stretcher until specific things are done.

If there's one thing US based EMS does well now, it's manage a cardiac arrest.  We literally do everything a hospital can do for an arrest, along with plenty of direct education and training.
 
Sword and Shield [TotalFark]
2023-01-04 4:02:05 PM  

Magorn: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: FTFA: Hamlin is "flipped over on his stomach" in the hospital to help with the blood on his lungs, according to Glenn. Doctors told Glenn his nephew is in that position to help take the pressure off the lungs, so they don't have to work as hard.

That's....bad.

The next step is to get Hamlin, who is still sedated on a ventilator, to breathe on his own, he said.

That's.....also bad.

If Sword and Shield is around he can weigh in with real expertise, but everything I know about trauma protocols tells me that the 30-minute delay before the ambulance took him the two miles to the Level 1 Trauma Center means something was *REALLY* wrong and he wasn't stable enough to move


I've been summoned.

Yes, that is a key part of the puzzle. Delay before transport usually means needed stablization on scene and was not stable enough to transport. It's the only reason I can think of where someone would be kept there for that length of time where there's a 700 bed regional-level trauma center just down the road.

For reference, talking about the big dogs within a few hundred miles- Cleveland Clinic is 1300 beds, UMichigan ~1000, Ohio State 900, Toledo Hospital 859. UC is definitely a good place to be.
 
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