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(Medium)   "Labor is finite, but it's something most humans not only have available, but actively want to provide." Old but interesting article on massive state projects and economic costs on the left. Rants about pork barrels and socialisms on the right   (medium.com) divider line
19
    More: Interesting, Unemployment, Tax, Government, teams of labor, Employment, Economics, fall of the previous government, citizens idle  
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172 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 28 Dec 2022 at 9:25 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



19 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
Harlee [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-28 6:44:38 AM  
"In fact, this isn't even a future crisis. In most of the world, the crisis is already here. There are dozens of countries with unemployment/underemployment rates in the thirty and forty percent range. Countries like Senegal, Venezuela, Bangladesh, or even in war torn countries like Sudan and Syria. The number of unemployed and underemployed in the world today is mind numbing. Right now."

"Labor is finite, but it's something most humans not only have available, but actively want to provide. Sometimes the desire is based only upon the goal of gathering purchasing power, but usually the drive to work runs much more deeply. Witness the rarity of the truly idle rich."

The pesky issue of tensile strength aside, a space elevator project would be the equivalent of ancient Egypt building a pyramid. With multiplier effect, it would employee hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in impoverished nations along the equator.
 
Gubbo [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-28 8:39:48 AM  
As a massive government project, updating the electrical grid in the US could be worth the investment and the jobs provided.

Not to mention fixing all the bridges
 
odinsposse
2022-12-28 9:55:10 AM  
People forget that the purpose of the economies we invent is to help people. The purpose of people is not to support the economy.
 
BMFPitt
2022-12-28 11:24:22 AM  

odinsposse: People forget that the purpose of the economies we invent is to help people. The purpose of people is not to support the economy.


Nobody forgets that the economy exists to provide value to people.  Many people also aren't dumb enough to think someone "invented" it.
 
BMFPitt
2022-12-28 11:27:00 AM  

Harlee: The pesky issue of tensile strength aside, a space elevator project would be the equivalent of ancient Egypt building a pyramid. With multiplier effect, it would employee hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in impoverished nations along the equator.


It is both sad and terrifying that you think the building of the pyramids is something to be emulated.

Please don't take an incredible idea the like space elevator and make it sound like a useless make-work project.
 
edmo [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-28 11:28:02 AM  
I think I'd prefer to go back to those old ways where money is spent in big ways but somewhere somebody has something to show for it. The anti-deficit Republicans haven't done a damned thing. The largesse is only flowing to the rich and big business these days.
 
BMFPitt
2022-12-28 11:30:18 AM  

edmo: The anti-deficit Republicans


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
Harlee [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-28 1:19:41 PM  

BMFPitt: Harlee: The pesky issue of tensile strength aside, a space elevator project would be the equivalent of ancient Egypt building a pyramid. With multiplier effect, it would employee hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in impoverished nations along the equator.

It is both sad and terrifying that you think the building of the pyramids is something to be emulated.

Please don't take an incredible idea the like space elevator and make it sound like a useless make-work project.


You make a valid point. I only used the pyramids due to the sheer scale of building them. A space elevator is more comparable, in that regard, to the pyramids than to even the Marshall Plan. And it makes the WPA seem trivial.

Did you read the article? It makes some valid points about the pyramids. The fact is that there was a HUGE seasonal unemployment problem, due to the seasonal flooding of the fertile farmland. That creates social instability. The society needs some method of deflecting that. Make-work? Indeed, but it performs a vital social and economic function. Because the potential labor would otherwise have been wasted.
 
Harlee [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-28 1:25:44 PM  

BMFPitt: Harlee: The pesky issue of tensile strength aside, a space elevator project would be the equivalent of ancient Egypt building a pyramid. With multiplier effect, it would employee hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in impoverished nations along the equator.

It is both sad and terrifying that you think the building of the pyramids is something to be emulated.



OK, in the coming (50-75 years, max) world of 90% unemployment (all the useful work is done by automation, robots, or programming) which would you prefer?
    (A) A gigantic, epic make-work project employing all those people?
Or (B) a Universal Basic Income and a dole of existential free stuff.

Or, I suppose, you could pick (C) and just have the excess population die from starvation.
 
BMFPitt
2022-12-28 1:30:32 PM  

Harlee: You make a valid point. I only used the pyramids due to the sheer scale of building them. A space elevator is more comparable, in that regard, to the pyramids than to even the Marshall Plan. And it makes the WPA seem trivial.

Did you read the article? It makes some valid points about the pyramids. The fact is that there was a HUGE seasonal unemployment problem, due to the seasonal flooding of the fertile farmland. That creates social instability. The society needs some method of deflecting that. Make-work? Indeed, but it performs a vital social and economic function. Because the potential labor would otherwise have been wasted.


The labor was wasted.

I don't see working slaves half to death in order to keep them too weak to revolt as a social good.
 
BMFPitt
2022-12-28 1:31:56 PM  

Harlee: OK, in the coming (50-75 years, max) world of 90% unemployment (all the useful work is done by automation, robots, or programming) which would you prefer?
    (A) A gigantic, epic make-work project employing all those people?
Or (B) a Universal Basic Income and a dole of existential free stuff.

Or, I suppose, you could pick (C) and just have the excess population die from starvation.


Anyone who argues for anything but B is a monster.

Although I think you're quite optimistic on the timeline.
 
covfefe [TotalFark]
2022-12-28 3:59:12 PM  

BMFPitt: Harlee: OK, in the coming (50-75 years, max) world of 90% unemployment (all the useful work is done by automation, robots, or programming) which would you prefer?
    (A) A gigantic, epic make-work project employing all those people?
Or (B) a Universal Basic Income and a dole of existential free stuff.

Or, I suppose, you could pick (C) and just have the excess population die from starvation.

Anyone who argues for anything but B is a monster.

Although I think you're quite optimistic on the timeline.


Every one of your comments is dripping with invective and superiority to a leve that it's not possible to discern sarcasm, which is not the same as the absence of irony. You should consider refining your persuasive techniques.
 
BMFPitt
2022-12-28 4:40:58 PM  

covfefe: Every one of your comments is dripping with invective and superiority to a leve that it's not possible to discern sarcasm, which is not the same as the absence of irony. You should consider refining your persuasive techniques.


If you have an argument for how any choice other than B is humane, feel free to share it.
 
BumpInTheNight [OhFark]
2022-12-28 5:34:27 PM  

BMFPitt: covfefe: Every one of your comments is dripping with invective and superiority to a leve that it's not possible to discern sarcasm, which is not the same as the absence of irony. You should consider refining your persuasive techniques.

If you have an argument for how any choice other than B is humane, feel free to share it.


A's better example is the epic construction projects that the 1930s Americans took on, those mammoth endeavors continue to serve their people today and are excellent examples of huge public works efforts for the betterment of their society and provide _meaningful_ work during periods where their lean on capitalism has failed them.  Particularly the Hoover Dam and the Interstate Highway system.

But yes if the entire world some how reaches over 50% of its population unable to find jobs (LOL, automation creates more jobs then it kills, its always been like that), then yes UBI to remove the most useless of us from the work force is probably a good idea.
 
Izunbacol [recently expired TotalFark]
2022-12-28 5:47:27 PM  

BumpInTheNight: BMFPitt: covfefe: Every one of your comments is dripping with invective and superiority to a leve that it's not possible to discern sarcasm, which is not the same as the absence of irony. You should consider refining your persuasive techniques.

If you have an argument for how any choice other than B is humane, feel free to share it.

A's better example is the epic construction projects that the 1930s Americans took on, those mammoth endeavors continue to serve their people today and are excellent examples of huge public works efforts for the betterment of their society and provide _meaningful_ work during periods where their lean on capitalism has failed them.  Particularly the Hoover Dam and the Interstate Highway system.

But yes if the entire world some how reaches over 50% of its population unable to find jobs (LOL, automation creates more jobs then it kills, its always been like that), then yes UBI to remove the most useless of us from the work force is probably a good idea.


Yep.

Meanwhile, I'm exhausted trying to advocate for the Democrats.  I hear nonstop how Democrats just want to have everyone dependent on the government, living on the dole like the mythological "Welfare Queen" painted in the dire warnings of St. Ronnie.

And then I hear this same garbage on here.

If you're for real:  give me a farking break.

If you're a GOP plant trying to make Democrats sound bad, great work.
 
BMFPitt
2022-12-28 6:32:27 PM  

BumpInTheNight: A's better example is the epic construction projects that the 1930s Americans took on, those mammoth endeavors continue to serve their people today and are excellent examples of huge public works efforts for the betterment of their society and provide _meaningful_ work during periods where their lean on capitalism has failed them.  Particularly the Hoover Dam and the Interstate Highway system.


The WPA was gone long before the interstate highway system.  And even if we're generous about how much of the WPA was meaningful vs make-work, in a hypothetical world where automation has essentially removed the need for human labor, why would forcing people to work in construction jobs would make any sense?

But yes if the entire world some how reaches over 50% of its population unable to find jobs (LOL, automation creates more jobs then it kills, its always been like that), then yes UBI to remove the most useless of us from the work force is probably a good idea.

Why the fark would we wait that long?  Automation absolutely enables more jobs to exist that couldn't otherwise, but once we reach a point where it can fill most of our needs (which won't be in any of our lifetimes), why insist that people have jobs that aren't necessary?
 
BMFPitt
2022-12-28 6:33:40 PM  

Izunbacol: Meanwhile, I'm exhausted trying to advocate for the Democrats.  I hear nonstop how Democrats just want to have everyone dependent on the government, living on the dole like the mythological "Welfare Queen" painted in the dire warnings of St. Ronnie.

And then I hear this same garbage on here.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
BumpInTheNight [OhFark]
2022-12-28 6:46:20 PM  

BMFPitt: BumpInTheNight: A's better example is the epic construction projects that the 1930s Americans took on, those mammoth endeavors continue to serve their people today and are excellent examples of huge public works efforts for the betterment of their society and provide _meaningful_ work during periods where their lean on capitalism has failed them.  Particularly the Hoover Dam and the Interstate Highway system.

The WPA was gone long before the interstate highway system.  And even if we're generous about how much of the WPA was meaningful vs make-work, in a hypothetical world where automation has essentially removed the need for human labor, why would forcing people to work in construction jobs would make any sense?

But yes if the entire world some how reaches over 50% of its population unable to find jobs (LOL, automation creates more jobs then it kills, its always been like that), then yes UBI to remove the most useless of us from the work force is probably a good idea.

Why the fark would we wait that long?  Automation absolutely enables more jobs to exist that couldn't otherwise, but once we reach a point where it can fill most of our needs (which won't be in any of our lifetimes), why insist that people have jobs that aren't necessary?


I guess our great great grand children will have to figure that out won't they.  If I had to make a bet though, it would be to continue to breed new gladiators for our alien overlords' entertainment arenas after they conquered our shiftless selves because no one figured out how to fill their days with meaningful contributions once Macdonalds started delivering free brekkie and beer right to the door of our personal holodecks every day.

But seriously let me assert that I agree that fluffy make-work just to occupy people's time is not logical in itself and I do not support that attempt at sating the population if we run out of things for us all to do.  But I am hard asserting that we have not even begun to figure out the universe in a way that would ever let us truly run out of things to do either.
 
Don Gato
2022-12-29 5:56:09 AM  
Jan 23, 2019 - 17 min read
Yeah, no.
 
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