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(Evo (UK))   Lexus targets the old person EV market by giving drivers a stick they can to use to pretend they drive better than an automatic   (evo.co.uk) divider line
63
    More: Silly, Torque, Manual transmission, Internal combustion engine, Automatic transmission, Electric motor, Electric vehicle, Automobile, Transmission  
•       •       •

1030 clicks; posted to STEM » on 12 Dec 2022 at 10:20 PM (14 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



63 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


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Lambskincoat [TotalFark]
2022-12-12 6:47:24 PM  
A true virtual reality standard shift, I like it.
 
aleister_greynight [TotalFark]
2022-12-12 6:51:37 PM  
Stick does give you some more control of your car.  Once learned it's kind of hard to give up.
 
make me some tea [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-12 8:24:54 PM  
Uh, that's dumb.
 
aleister_greynight [TotalFark]
2022-12-12 8:42:46 PM  

make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.


I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.
 
aleister_greynight [TotalFark]
2022-12-12 8:45:46 PM  

aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.


It's kind of like the "Oh Shiat Bar," it doesn't make you any safer by holding on to it, but it makes you feel safer.
 
Hoban Washburne [TotalFark]
2022-12-12 8:49:06 PM  
So like you pretend to shift while the car does it automatically?  Am I reading this correctly?
 
make me some tea [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-12 9:04:14 PM  

aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.


I learned to drive on a stick too but I have no use for this. I push the accelerator and it goes. That's it. No need to complicate it.
 
Ivo Shandor [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-12 9:07:03 PM  

Hoban Washburne: So like you pretend to shift while the car does it automatically?  Am I reading this correctly?


It also makes "vroom vroom" noises.
 
MrBallou [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-12 9:09:18 PM  

Hoban Washburne: So like you pretend to shift while the car does it automatically?  Am I reading this correctly?


Like this but with better styling

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
Squid_for_Brains [TotalFark]
2022-12-12 9:36:52 PM  

make me some tea: aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.

I learned to drive on a stick too but I have no use for this. I push the accelerator and it goes. That's it. No need to complicate it.


I once went from driving an automatic all my life to a CVT, which doesn't shift at all. It made me extremely prone to speeding until I got used to it. That being said, I don't think I'd want unnecessary parts involved.
 
Unsung_Hero
2022-12-12 10:52:56 PM  
Some CVTs are software controlled to provide fake shifts because people expect them.  You can't help stupid, but you can market to it.
 
Marcus Aurelius [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-12 11:04:17 PM  
This should age like fish left out in the sun.
 
Boomstickz
2022-12-12 11:20:23 PM  

aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.


If it sets the electric regen map at the same time I can totally see the benefit from a vehicle dynamics/user interface point of view.

To all the software dweebs reading this thread:

This is a very dark art, where it's a three-way compromise between software design, human factors ergonomics and drivetrain/chassis design.

It's not a "no gearbox on a electric motor" huuuuduhhhhh.

/has worked on programming chassis ECU's professionally (prototypes)
 
aleister_greynight [TotalFark]
2022-12-12 11:21:01 PM  

make me some tea: aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.

I learned to drive on a stick too but I have no use for this. I push the accelerator and it goes. That's it. No need to complicate it.


I haven't driven for many years, but I remember reaching for the stick every time and feeling it was just off, for it not to be there.
 
seanpaul.bobadilla
2022-12-12 11:27:15 PM  
Next they'll give it a muffler and a tailpipe. Maybe something to generate carbon monoxide so they can sit in a closed garage.
 
Dryad
2022-12-12 11:49:57 PM  

Hoban Washburne: So like you pretend to shift while the car does it automatically?  Am I reading this correctly?


No. Its programmed to change the torque response of the engine based on your gear selection. Which means you can downshift and simulate compression braking, and control weight balance, which is a HUGE benefit to driving a stick.
So there is no gearbox, or physical connection to the driveline at all, but you are still manually controlling the driveline through a computer.
Its simply a fly-by-wire system like modern jets use. Some people here probably think pilots flying fighter jets are also just pretending to fly why the actually plane flies for them. Its the same system.
-
theoretically be able to switch between front, rear and all-wheel drive, and with the right torque-vectoring hardware could even mimic the actions of an RC-F-style torque-vectoring differential. Lexus will also incorporate this with its new steer-by-wire system that's been introduced on its RZ EV, both of which will be utilised on all EVs from Lexus. This would theoretically give engineers the ability to recreate specific steering maps
-
Being able to program your entire UI experience and mimic different driveline responses is pretty interesting. Being able to switch between modes for off road rallycross, drifting, etc, is pretty esoteric performance stuff and not everyone cup of tea, but cool in theory, and certainly not a case of "pretend to shift while the car does it automatically"
 
dyhchong
2022-12-12 11:53:53 PM  
Toyota says it'll be able to theoretically recreate any engine and transmission combination through both sound and torque deliveries from the powertrain. Want the sonorous bark of a Lexus 2UR-GSE with its linear torque delivery and revvy nature, no problem. What about the boosty build of a 2JZ-GTE twin-turbocharged straight-six from an A80 Supra RZ - it can all be recreated through the virtual transmission, precise torque mapping and sound generators.

The system will be integrated with Lexus's DIRECT4 twin-motor, which so long as its peak outputs are higher than any chosen combustion engine it's trying to mimic, will be able to recreate it.

AKA it will retard engine performance so it feels like you're driving a slower, crappier engine while you pretend you're pushing it as fast as it can go.
 
dyhchong
2022-12-12 11:58:38 PM  
If you want this, then it would be weird if you were opposed to someone selling C63 AMG upgrades that restrict its power delivery so that it performs like a Fiat Bambina.
 
leeksfromchichis [TotalFark]
2022-12-13 12:02:00 AM  

aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.


I also learned on a stick. Even after not driving one for damn near 20 years, still tap that floor where the clutch should be.
 
cob2f
2022-12-13 12:27:36 AM  
Gee, what's next? Virtual manual choke? Simulated window cranks?

I'd love to get those little triangular window vents back. Those were so cool.
 
RedVentrue
2022-12-13 12:29:04 AM  

aleister_greynight: make me some tea: aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.

I learned to drive on a stick too but I have no use for this. I push the accelerator and it goes. That's it. No need to complicate it.

I haven't driven for many years, but I remember reaching for the stick every time and feeling it was just off, for it not to be there.


As long as I can push start my e-Lexus when the starter won't work I'm good.
 
aleister_greynight [TotalFark]
2022-12-13 12:29:34 AM  

leeksfromchichis: aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.

I also learned on a stick. Even after not driving one for damn near 20 years, still tap that floor where the clutch should be.


CSB: Back before I stopped driving I borrowed my aunt's (automatic) car, I was taking my young cousin to see a movie.  After he saw me continually reaching for the gear shift, he just held up his hand in the middle with a fist, and told me to use that to shift.  It was half humor and half serious.  I actually took him up on the offer, it helped to have something to shift.
 
RedVentrue
2022-12-13 12:29:58 AM  

cob2f: Gee, what's next? Virtual manual choke? Simulated window cranks?

I'd love to get those little triangular window vents back. Those were so cool.


Yep. It's not a car without those.
 
Jumpthruhoops
2022-12-13 12:48:41 AM  
Absolutely worthless without a virtual clutch. Even better if it rolls back a bit when starting on a hill.
 
Sub Human [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-13 12:48:44 AM  
Electric motors make this unnecessary. So this is stupid.
 
El Rich-o
2022-12-13 1:08:47 AM  

cob2f: Gee, what's next? Virtual manual choke? Simulated window cranks?

I'd love to get those little triangular window vents back. Those were so cool.


I've got them in my 2002 Hilux, they're great.
 
xCh
2022-12-13 1:27:19 AM  
You literally cannot stall an electric motor -it will generate maximum torque when stopped. So you don't need a clutch. And a manual transmission without a clutch is just a lazy automatic.

This idea is almost as stupid as BMW's (pick one)

1) ugly snout on all its new cars,

2) attempts to get a subscription model for seat warmers, or

3) fake engine noise in its M3
 
ekdikeo4
2022-12-13 1:40:33 AM  

Ivo Shandor: Hoban Washburne: So like you pretend to shift while the car does it automatically? Am I reading this correctly?

It also makes "vroom vroom" noises.


It simulates the torque changes of driving a manual, too.  It's only functional utility, though, is to satisfy the "This is brilliant, but I like this!" group.

A bit less functionally, however, there is something to be said about drivers who are actually paying attention.  As some others have said, part of the difference of driving an automatic vs driving a manual is feeling a connection with the machine, although it's really more just a different *kind* of connection.  The connection with an automatic trans on an ICE car is basically only made via the accelerator pedal and the steering wheel.    It *is* more fun to drive manual, imo, even if you eliminated the general power difference and perceived control between an identically otherwise manual/auto trans car.

Still, mostly, it's about the "I like *this*" group.

I'd certainly give it a test drive, but I doubt that stuff like this would ever filter down to "cheap used car" prices, which is where i buy all vehicles at. :D
 
crumblecat
2022-12-13 2:11:10 AM  

cob2f: Gee, what's next? Virtual manual choke? Simulated window cranks?

I'd love to get those little triangular window vents back. Those were so cool.


Simulated window cranks exist. They have an internal switch and are used to replicate the original appearance in resto-mod historic vehicles.
 
studebaker hoch
2022-12-13 3:23:14 AM  

xCh: You literally cannot stall an electric motor -it will generate maximum torque when stopped. So you don't need a clutch. And a manual transmission without a clutch is just a lazy automatic.

This idea is almost as stupid as BMW's (pick one)

1) ugly snout on all its new cars,

2) attempts to get a subscription model for seat warmers, or

3) fake engine noise in its M3


Ford was doing that with the Mustang for a while.   When called out on it, they said the added sound was to "give the driver a more authentic experience".
 
studebaker hoch
2022-12-13 3:24:50 AM  
Why is it that all the little obsolete things are what we loved about cars?
 
bisi
2022-12-13 3:52:24 AM  
What's next, a hand crank starter?

I have driven nothing but manual cars all my life, so let me be clear: fark this bullshiat.
 
khatores
2022-12-13 4:22:35 AM  

xCh: You literally cannot stall an electric motor -it will generate maximum torque when stopped. So you don't need a clutch. And a manual transmission without a clutch is just a lazy automatic.


According to the article, it will have a clutch.

make me some tea: aleister_greynight: make me some tea: Uh, that's dumb.

I don't think so.  It may only give you the illusion of control, but it is a very much needed illusion when driving an automatic.  At least to me, I learned on a stick.

I learned to drive on a stick too but I have no use for this. I push the accelerator and it goes. That's it. No need to complicate it.


I learned to drive on a stick, then I drove a 1970 Ford with a column shifter for a while. I occasionally get to drive a VW Jetta GLI with a stick and it's pretty fun.

This fake shiat is kind of stupid for an electric car and it's going to be something for Doug DeMuro to guffaw at endlessly.  Technology should be functional, not dressed up to satisfy nostalgia. If someone wants a stickshift, they can go out and buy a real (used) one.

I can see having them make noise - that's safer for pedestrians who might otherwise waltz out in front if they don't hear a car coming. I've driven a few and didn't really find that the lack of noise impacted the driving experience at all.
 
TWX
2022-12-13 4:31:34 AM  

Sub Human: Electric motors make this unnecessary. So this is stupid.


There is one mode that I could see being useful, which is the ability to switch between open-coast vs light engine-brake.

For what it's worth I have noticed the distinction since my wife's relatively new vehicle with an 8-speed 'automatic' is actually one of those automatically-shifting clutch-type transmissions.  Internally it operates more like a manual transmission and it uses a clutch instead of a torque converter, but it's all computer controlled.  It actually lacks a good 'coast' feel compared to either a normal manual transmission with the clutch pedal depressed, or an automatic when one lets off the gas and the valvebody has the transmission in-gear where the stall-speed of the converter happens to align well with the gear-choice and speed.

But I'm not sure exactly how one is supposed to achieve this distinction without a clutch pedal either.

/doesn't find the wife's vehicle pleasurable to drive
//would prefer either a manual transmission or an automatic with a torque converter
///but understands the engineering choice was made mostly out of fuel economy targets
 
Some Junkie Cosmonaut
2022-12-13 5:10:02 AM  

Hoban Washburne: So like you pretend to shift while the car does it automatically?  Am I reading this correctly?


You pretend to shift and the car does it automatically, but generates haptic feedback to the stick so you get the feel of a manual shift.  It's theater, but it's theater that those used to manual transmissions will be able to use to drive an EV better.  I don't really care, if it makes people drive better due to the familiarity and feel of engagement in operation - why not.  They'll fade out as fewer and fewer people grow up operating a vehicle that way, barring the specialty vehicles that still use a manual and are likely to for the foreseeable future
 
mtrac
2022-12-13 7:02:55 AM  
Seriously, who is asking for something like this? It's something a wealthy person would give their kid. Once you tire of simulating both the General Lee and a preselector gearbox, you have a fancy car you can't sell.
assets.amuniversal.comView Full Size
 
Likwit
2022-12-13 7:11:53 AM  
What do they need an EV manual transmission for? They have nothing in the pipeline. The BZ4X has been such a disaster that they scrapped all 30 EVs they announced earlier in the year. Do they even have anything even remotely close to ready that isn't an overpriced electron guzzling disaster? They're really freaking me out. The Japanese economy is dependent upon the automotive industry and Toyota's silver spoon president is going to "Stop Liking What I Don't Like" an entire sector out of existence.
 
jake3988 [OhFark]
2022-12-13 8:02:46 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Hoban Washburne: So like you pretend to shift while the car does it automatically?  Am I reading this correctly?

You pretend to shift and the car does it automatically, but generates haptic feedback to the stick so you get the feel of a manual shift.  It's theater, but it's theater that those used to manual transmissions will be able to use to drive an EV better.  I don't really care, if it makes people drive better due to the familiarity and feel of engagement in operation - why not.  They'll fade out as fewer and fewer people grow up operating a vehicle that way, barring the specialty vehicles that still use a manual and are likely to for the foreseeable future


A) At least in the US, it's almost impossible to find a car with a manual transmission.

B) EVs are already significantly different in driving than ICE cars, as the concept of coasting doesn't really exist in EV world, since there's no 'give it more gas' aka accelerate.  That's a million times harder to get used to than a stick shift.

C) EVs don't even have transmissions... it's purposefully adding something that's going to cost likely a few thousand extra to basically do nothing.  It's stupid.
 
bisi
2022-12-13 8:25:12 AM  

jake3988: C) EVs don't even have transmissions... it's purposefully adding something that's going to cost likely a few thousand extra to basically do nothing.  It's stupid.


They're not putting in an actual transmission. It's a set of different torque profiles for the e-motors.

It's still stupid. Just not that stupid.
 
Some Junkie Cosmonaut
2022-12-13 9:03:54 AM  

jake3988: A) At least in the US, it's almost impossible to find a car with a manual transmission.

B) EVs are already significantly different in driving than ICE cars, as the concept of coasting doesn't really exist in EV world, since there's no 'give it more gas' aka accelerate.  That's a million times harder to get used to than a stick shift.

C) EVs don't even have transmissions... it's purposefully adding something that's going to cost likely a few thousand extra to basically do nothing.  It's stupid.


If it lets some people transition to driving EV's easier, and it's their money?  The fark cares, seriously?  There's a lot of shiat in the world I'd find stupid personally but it helps others, or gives them comfort, or the illusion of safety, control, or superior performance as appropriate.  I'm not gonna yuck on that out of sheer "Ackshuallllly."  Fark it, why?  If it helps them and they want to spend their dough on it?  Whatev

/just remember
//as long as it isn't hurting anybody, it doesn't have to make sense to me or thee
///and it isn't, so shrug
////"It doesn't have to make sense to me" is something that I've found helps in a whole lot of situations
 
Marksrevenge
2022-12-13 9:07:07 AM  

TWX: Sub Human: Electric motors make this unnecessary. So this is stupid.

There is one mode that I could see being useful, which is the ability to switch between open-coast vs light engine-brake.

For what it's worth I have noticed the distinction since my wife's relatively new vehicle with an 8-speed 'automatic' is actually one of those automatically-shifting clutch-type transmissions.  Internally it operates more like a manual transmission and it uses a clutch instead of a torque converter, but it's all computer controlled.  It actually lacks a good 'coast' feel compared to either a normal manual transmission with the clutch pedal depressed, or an automatic when one lets off the gas and the valvebody has the transmission in-gear where the stall-speed of the converter happens to align well with the gear-choice and speed.

But I'm not sure exactly how one is supposed to achieve this distinction without a clutch pedal either.

/doesn't find the wife's vehicle pleasurable to drive
//would prefer either a manual transmission or an automatic with a torque converter
///but understands the engineering choice was made mostly out of fuel economy targets


My hybrid has paddles on the steering wheel to adjust how aggressive the regenerative braking is. No need to take a hand off the wheel.
 
Marcos P
2022-12-13 9:29:24 AM  
The best shiat about having electric motors is they just go there is no reason to shift unless you are delivering tofu on Mt. Akina.
 
Dryad
2022-12-13 9:34:42 AM  

bisi: jake3988: C) EVs don't even have transmissions... it's purposefully adding something that's going to cost likely a few thousand extra to basically do nothing.  It's stupid.

They're not putting in an actual transmission. It's a set of different torque profiles for the e-motors.

It's still stupid. Just not that stupid.


I could do without the fake noises and variable profiles, but I really DO like the idea of downshifting.
Compression braking and controlling weight distribution with the throttle are useful things an electric lacks.
The rest is silly fluff, but not having those things can kill you in dicey conditions.
 
Mayhem_2006
2022-12-13 9:53:26 AM  
I genuinely find the automatic vs manual debate confusing.

In the UK, we heavily favour manual.  You'd generally have to specify to a salesman that you want an automatic gearshift or he'd assume you wanted manual.  You won't hear questions about "driving a stick" because its just assumed that everybody does.

I don't know why we have so roundly rejected automatic whilst America has wholeheartedly embraced it.  Its not a luddite thing, its like we don't even consider it.

I wonder if part of it is that for the USA, for most people a manual means taking your dominant hand off the wheel, whereas in the UK it doesn't.  Or is it due to the nature of our journeys - maybe its perceived that automatics are for those long distance straight cruises which are not very common for the average UK driver.

What are your larger vehicles like?  Do your articulated lorries (Sorry, Do I mean 18 -wheelers?) use manual or automatic transmission?  What about smaller trucks?  if not, at which point in vehicle size does it become natural to go automatic instead of "stick"?
 
bisi
2022-12-13 9:54:09 AM  

Dryad: bisi: jake3988: C) EVs don't even have transmissions... it's purposefully adding something that's going to cost likely a few thousand extra to basically do nothing.  It's stupid.

They're not putting in an actual transmission. It's a set of different torque profiles for the e-motors.

It's still stupid. Just not that stupid.

I could do without the fake noises and variable profiles, but I really DO like the idea of downshifting.
Compression braking and controlling weight distribution with the throttle are useful things an electric lacks.
The rest is silly fluff, but not having those things can kill you in dicey conditions.


How does engine braking work on automatic transmissions? I don't drive them, so I genuinely don't know.
But if they're safe enough, an electric with the same behavior should be fine?

As for more performance oriented driving, I expect the racing world to figure something out once they shift more towards electric.
 
bisi
2022-12-13 10:01:37 AM  

Mayhem_2006: I genuinely find the automatic vs manual debate confusing.

In the UK, we heavily favour manual.  You'd generally have to specify to a salesman that you want an automatic gearshift or he'd assume you wanted manual.  You won't hear questions about "driving a stick" because its just assumed that everybody does.

I don't know why we have so roundly rejected automatic whilst America has wholeheartedly embraced it.  Its not a luddite thing, its like we don't even consider it.

I wonder if part of it is that for the USA, for most people a manual means taking your dominant hand off the wheel, whereas in the UK it doesn't.  Or is it due to the nature of our journeys - maybe its perceived that automatics are for those long distance straight cruises which are not very common for the average UK driver.

What are your larger vehicles like?  Do your articulated lorries (Sorry, Do I mean 18 -wheelers?) use manual or automatic transmission?  What about smaller trucks?  if not, at which point in vehicle size does it become natural to go automatic instead of "stick"?


Manual is also the default on the mainland, so it's not about the hand thing.
Automatic transmissions used to be clunky and inefficient, I figure that has something to do with it.

Nowadays, I see more and more friends and family go for an automatic transmission. Which does make sense in city traffic and with all the traffic jams in a large city.

European lorries are almost always automatic nowadays, I think. Certainly the 40 ton / 18 wheeler type.
 
Mayhem_2006
2022-12-13 10:19:10 AM  

bisi: Mayhem_2006: I genuinely find the automatic vs manual debate confusing.

Automatic transmissions used to be clunky and inefficient, I figure that has something to do with it.


That's probably the issue, now you mention it.

Our fuel prices have always meant an aversion to fuel ineffcient engines and whilst modern automatics may not have the same issue it was certainly the case in the early days.  That and they only worked well in big cars, which again, we tended to shy away from since our road networks developed almost organically from cart trails
 
Koodz
2022-12-13 10:52:31 AM  

aleister_greynight: Stick does give you some more control of your car.  Once learned it's kind of hard to give up.


Real question, speaking as someone who drove a stick to the office this morning.

How does it give you more control as could be observed from the exterior of the vehicle? What can you do with a stick you can't do with a modern auto, CVT, or electric drivetrain?
 
Kar98
2022-12-13 10:58:44 AM  

studebaker hoch: Why is it that all the little obsolete things are what we loved about cars?


There's things that I miss about older cars I had, like illuminated ashtrays and lighters, or seats you could fold completely flat. But I certainly don't miss window cranks, clutch pedals, and cassette decks.
 
Kar98
2022-12-13 11:06:30 AM  
bisi:

How does engine braking work on automatic transmissions? I don't drive them, so I genuinely don't know.
But if they're safe enough, an electric with the same behavior should be fine?

You lift your foot off the gas pedal, and the engine acts as a brake. Same as with a manual trans.
In electric cars, it works the same, except now the engine brakes and feeds electricity back to the battery.
 
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