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(NPR)   2005: Africa's debt completely forgiven by Western nations. 2022: continent's back in hock. To China. 2039: China forgives the debt?   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Asinine, Middle East, China, Human rights, Africa, North Africa, MENA, Central Asia, United Nations  
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1581 clicks; posted to Politics » and Business » on 07 Dec 2022 at 3:50 PM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-12-07 3:52:12 PM  
China is simply buying Africa and they just don't realize it yet.
 
2022-12-07 3:54:14 PM  
Oh, this will be a fun round of civil wars to oust the Chinese imperials.
 
2022-12-07 3:57:00 PM  

wildcardjack: Oh, this will be a fun round of civil wars to oust the Chinese imperials.


lets hope they are nicer than the Belgians.
 
2022-12-07 4:01:23 PM  
Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.
 
2022-12-07 4:02:36 PM  
They're going to find out that China is not a Western nation.
 
2022-12-07 4:03:27 PM  
I hate the current Chinese leadership with a passion, but pointing out China's role in Africa after the West has raped and pillaged it for centuries is hypocritical to say the least. The West is worried about China's advancement in Africa but let's not pretend that is because of humanitarian reasons.   

In addition, the majority of African debt is still held by Western governments, instutitions and private lenders against worse conditions. 

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-12-07 4:04:17 PM  
China has two opposing choices going forward. The first is to cash in the debt by way of land grabs, and the second is to dissolve completely.

The Chinese regard humans as the most renewable resource nature has to offer. For them, lining up the low hanging fruit to cull the dependents is little more than cutting the grass. In some places, the low hanging fruit number in the millions.

2039: China forgives the debt? Not a chance.

2039: China culls the herd with little to no resistance. When they get here and line you up before the trains, you better say you're a sheet metal fabricator and not a history teacher.
 
2022-12-07 4:05:23 PM  
When the CCP collapses and today's China is 6-8 warlord states, who collects on the debts?
 
2022-12-07 4:07:50 PM  

iToad: They're going to find out that China is not a Western nation.


I imagine that is part of China's appeal in Africa.
 
2022-12-07 4:08:04 PM  

TheSubjunctive: When the CCP collapses and today's China is 6-8 warlord states, who collects on the debts?


Frank Stallone?
 
2022-12-07 4:09:56 PM  

bikkurikun: I hate the current Chinese leadership with a passion, but pointing out China's role in Africa after the West has raped and pillaged it for centuries is hypocritical to say the least. The West is worried about China's advancement in Africa but let's not pretend that is because of humanitarian reasons.   

In addition, the majority of African debt is still held by Western governments, instutitions and private lenders against worse conditions. 

[Fark user image 850x1134]


I guess the main worry is that pretty much all of those "Chinese lenders" are actually the Chinese government, whereas the Western lenders are mostly private institutions.

The latter are in Africa to make money, while the former may have different goals.

And yes, the West's worries have nothing to do with humanitarian issues.
 
2022-12-07 4:10:38 PM  
The PRC has been meddling on the African continent since the mid-1950s with various degrees of short term success.  Time and again they proved just how much of a communist movement they weren't.
 
2022-12-07 4:10:53 PM  
what happened to you, china. you used to be cool
 
2022-12-07 4:11:40 PM  

Subtonic: Frank Stallone?


You guessed it.
 
2022-12-07 4:11:46 PM  
Also, the fact that the Chinese government will issue loans at lower rates than Western financial institutions should tell you that the risk of default isn't the only thing they are taking into consideration.
 
2022-12-07 4:11:55 PM  
So the entire continent of Africa got a loan forgiveness?

Or does this article thing that Africa is just one big country?
 
2022-12-07 4:12:18 PM  
Is the infrastructure being built going to benefit the African countries for whatever their priorities are or to China? Whether China tries to recover what they loaned isn't nearly as important.
 
2022-12-07 4:12:59 PM  

iToad: They're going to find out that China is not a Western nation.


Considering the history Western nations have with Africa, they're probably hoping that's the case.
 
2022-12-07 4:14:25 PM  
Surely things will work out well for Africa this time...
 
2022-12-07 4:15:53 PM  

toraque: iToad: They're going to find out that China is not a Western nation.

Considering the history Western nations have with Africa, they're probably hoping that's the case.


Surely the Chinese will treat them right...
 
2022-12-07 4:16:23 PM  
2039: China forgives the debt?

thumbs.gfycat.comView Full Size
 
2022-12-07 4:18:35 PM  

Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.


Apparently it also encourages the borrower to enter into foolish deals assuming that those too will be forgiven. Anyone who's payed any attention to China knows this is beyond foolish bordering on ruinous.
 
2022-12-07 4:18:45 PM  

guestguy: Surely things will work out well for Africa this time...


China is sitting on a demographics bomb.  Africa on the other hand is expected to continue to grow faster than the rest of the world.

maybe in the not too distant future your smart phone will have a "made in Kenya" sticker on it.
 
2022-12-07 4:21:15 PM  
[Insert Topic Here]

Some people think [insert topic] is good. Other people think [insert topic] is bad. I'm a journalism.

The Independent
 
2022-12-07 4:21:16 PM  

GoldSpider: China is simply buying Africa and they just don't realize it yet.


No, China thinksthey're buying Africa. Just like the West thought it was buying Africa. And just like the West, China is going to realize that making African countries with little real permanence and nothing to lose pay up on their debt is impossible. And they're either going to realize it the way way, like the West did post-colonialism and just forgive the debt and call it a lesson learned, or they're going to realize it the hard way, like the West did pre-colonialism where they'll send in troops to fight a losing colonialist war that disillusions their voters and breaks their political establishment.
 
2022-12-07 4:26:54 PM  
Africa being exploited for natural resources in a way that leaves the native people just as poor or even worse than before is a tale as old as time
 
2022-12-07 4:27:14 PM  

Lusiphur: GoldSpider: China is simply buying Africa and they just don't realize it yet.

No, China thinksthey're buying Africa. Just like the West thought it was buying Africa. And just like the West, China is going to realize that making African countries with little real permanence and nothing to lose pay up on their debt is impossible. And they're either going to realize it the way way, like the West did post-colonialism and just forgive the debt and call it a lesson learned, or they're going to realize it the hard way, like the West did pre-colonialism where they'll send in troops to fight a losing colonialist war that disillusions their voters and breaks their political establishment.


Assuming it follows the second path, does the West get involved in another Cold War-esque proxy fight to stick it to China, or do we actually learn from our mistakes and stay the fark out of it?

/You already know the answer
 
2022-12-07 4:27:25 PM  

Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.


How the hell does that make any mathematical sense?

If I am $100 in debt and can't pay, if the debt holder forgives my debt, I have what the 100 got me and no debt?  Am I not better off than before the debt forgiveness?  I have a thing and no debt.  And now I am worse off than when I had the debt?
 
2022-12-07 4:28:27 PM  

toraque: iToad: They're going to find out that China is not a Western nation.

Considering the history Western nations have with Africa, they're probably hoping that's the case.


They'd do well to study world history then. Cozying up to ruZZia and China isn't the brilliant move they think it is. Stalin and Mao make Hitler's death toll look like amateur hour.
 
2022-12-07 4:28:54 PM  
Africa has resources that China needs. China will happily build infrastructure at cut-rate prices to move the resources to seaports.  China will happily make loans at cut-rate prices to shore up political support for the resources move to seaports.  China will happily sell arms to boost local security so the resources can get to seaports.  China will build the seaports, too.

This is China's version of Banana Republics.

This is known.
 
2022-12-07 4:29:11 PM  
How Capitalism Robs the Developing World
Youtube 35Ax-psPZ1g
 
2022-12-07 4:30:47 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.

How the hell does that make any mathematical sense?

If I am $100 in debt and can't pay, if the debt holder forgives my debt, I have what the 100 got me and no debt?  Am I not better off than before the debt forgiveness?  I have a thing and no debt.  And now I am worse off than when I had the debt?


Agreed. I'd wish my mortgage lender would forgive my debt. I'd buy RA Total Fark for a year.
 
2022-12-07 4:32:43 PM  

Bith Set Me Up: [Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/35Ax-psPZ1g]


Is there anything Hargreave doesn't have his damned fingers in?
 
2022-12-07 4:34:37 PM  

Luse: AmbassadorBooze: Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.

How the hell does that make any mathematical sense?

If I am $100 in debt and can't pay, if the debt holder forgives my debt, I have what the 100 got me and no debt?  Am I not better off than before the debt forgiveness?  I have a thing and no debt.  And now I am worse off than when I had the debt?

Agreed. I'd wish my mortgage lender would forgive my debt. I'd buy RA Total Fark for a year.


Wait... The whole student debt relief is a scheme by Biden to make the people with student debt worse off!

Team blue unite!  Don't fall for the trap.  Don't allow student debt relief.  Debt forgiveness is a trap to make you worse off!
 
2022-12-07 4:35:00 PM  
"Yes, China is exploiting Africa, but whatabout that time the West did it? "

I'm not sure what value this brings, but OK.  It's noted.  Everyone's mind has been blown.
 
2022-12-07 4:35:58 PM  
The Chinese are taking the lessons learned from the Opium Wars, and are basically refighting them.
 
2022-12-07 4:38:12 PM  
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/551337-chinas-debt-trap-diplomacy/

When these countries default on the variable interest loans that China generously provides, it is the asset that's surrendered. China then seizes and operates the port, railway, power grid, etc for their own profit. When China runs your port, who are you to say they can't park a naval destroyer or two there?
 
2022-12-07 4:41:13 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: Luse: AmbassadorBooze: Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.

How the hell does that make any mathematical sense?

If I am $100 in debt and can't pay, if the debt holder forgives my debt, I have what the 100 got me and no debt?  Am I not better off than before the debt forgiveness?  I have a thing and no debt.  And now I am worse off than when I had the debt?

Agreed. I'd wish my mortgage lender would forgive my debt. I'd buy RA Total Fark for a year.

Wait... The whole student debt relief is a scheme by Biden to make the people with student debt worse off!

Team blue unite!  Don't fall for the trap.  Don't allow student debt relief.  Debt forgiveness is a trap to make you worse off!


Which is why it hasn't been done before now! If it was such a "good" thing the boomers would have had it for themselves! Instead they "complained" that only the kids get it and they don't! It's a brilliant sucker play! We're being checkmatermixed liberalos!!!
 
2022-12-07 4:42:40 PM  

Rapmaster2000: "Yes, China is exploiting Africa, but whatabout that time the West did it? "

I'm not sure what value this brings, but OK.  It's noted.  Everyone's mind has been blown.


Bingo! I respond to whataboutism with one of two responses, ignore or mock.
 
2022-12-07 4:43:54 PM  

sabreWulf07: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/551337-chinas-debt-trap-diplomacy/

When these countries default on the variable interest loans that China generously provides, it is the asset that's surrendered. China then seizes and operates the port, railway, power grid, etc for their own profit. When China runs your port, who are you to say they can't park a naval destroyer or two there?


What's "IED" in Mandarin?
 
2022-12-07 4:49:49 PM  

Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.


So there is no reason to forgive school loans?
<kidding, sort of>

Isn't this a case of something is better than nothing?
Or "The perfect is the enemy of the good"?
 
2022-12-07 4:57:09 PM  

Markus5: Africa has resources that China needs. China will happily build infrastructure at cut-rate prices to move the resources to seaports.  China will happily make loans at cut-rate prices to shore up political support for the resources move to seaports.  China will happily sell arms to boost local security so the resources can get to seaports.  China will build the seaports, too.

This is China's version of Banana Republics.

This is known.


Goes beyond that level of corporate colonialism.  It's worse.  China is going to use Africa like the US used China, to offshore the humanitarian and pollution costs of sustaining their inflated standard of living.
 
2022-12-07 5:16:54 PM  

Lusiphur: GoldSpider: China is simply buying Africa and they just don't realize it yet.

No, China thinksthey're buying Africa. Just like the West thought it was buying Africa. And just like the West, China is going to realize that making African countries with little real permanence and nothing to lose pay up on their debt is impossible. And they're either going to realize it the way way, like the West did post-colonialism and just forgive the debt and call it a lesson learned, or they're going to realize it the hard way, like the West did pre-colonialism where they'll send in troops to fight a losing colonialist war that disillusions their voters and breaks their political establishment.


The difference is China is colonizing Chinese-style. As of last year there were an estimated 2 million Chinese workers in Africa. If the Europeans had killed all the locals that would have been the same as losing since there would have been no one left to do the work. The Chinese can simply kill everyone and accelerate their migration to New Tibet.
 
2022-12-07 5:31:07 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: Luse: AmbassadorBooze: Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.

How the hell does that make any mathematical sense?

If I am $100 in debt and can't pay, if the debt holder forgives my debt, I have what the 100 got me and no debt?  Am I not better off than before the debt forgiveness?  I have a thing and no debt.  And now I am worse off than when I had the debt?

Agreed. I'd wish my mortgage lender would forgive my debt. I'd buy RA Total Fark for a year.

Wait... The whole student debt relief is a scheme by Biden to make the people with student debt worse off!

Team blue unite!  Don't fall for the trap.  Don't allow student debt relief.  Debt forgiveness is a trap to make you worse off!


Is... is the answer cannibalism?
 
2022-12-07 5:49:46 PM  

Luse: Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.

Apparently it also encourages the borrower to enter into foolish deals assuming that those too will be forgiven. Anyone who's payed any attention to China knows this is beyond foolish bordering on ruinous.


Like a payday loan or sub-prime mortgage?
 
2022-12-07 6:04:24 PM  

Ragin' Asian: Luse: Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.

Apparently it also encourages the borrower to enter into foolish deals assuming that those too will be forgiven. Anyone who's payed any attention to China knows this is beyond foolish bordering on ruinous.

Like a payday loan or sub-prime mortgage?


Cute. Perhaps Africans should ask the Uighurs how China treats "others". I'm sure Africa will be eager to join them in "re-education" camps.
 
2022-12-07 6:08:26 PM  

Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.


Why not?  Seriously, Africans are human beings, not dumb animals.  Within tiny, tiny fractions of a fraction they're genetically the same as everyone else.

Africa has plenty of resources and plenty of ingenious people, and unlike when Western civilization was forming and developing into the Developed Western Democracies, the nations of Africa have access to hoards of modern knowledge.

Released from debt, the raw ingredients to be successful existed, and they didn't have to figure out the recipe either.  They could have kicked out any exploitative foreign companies.  So far as I'm aware, the US isn't currently engaging in regime change and supporting brutal dictatorships on the continent.

Failed or failing nations in Africa have cultural problems, and those can eventually be overcome.  Eventually.  It's a shame that couldn't be accomplished before the Chinese started their financial conquest, though.
 
2022-12-07 6:22:04 PM  

severedtoe: wildcardjack: Oh, this will be a fun round of civil wars to oust the Chinese imperials.

lets hope they are nicer than the Belgians.


Chubby Checker Psycho
 
2022-12-07 6:25:18 PM  

bikkurikun: I hate the current Chinese leadership with a passion, but pointing out China's role in Africa after the West has raped and pillaged it for centuries is hypocritical to say the least. The West is worried about China's advancement in Africa but let's not pretend that is because of humanitarian reasons.   

In addition, the majority of African debt is still held by Western governments, instutitions and private lenders against worse conditions. 

[Fark user image image 850x1134]


It is grotesque that we charge Africa any interest at all. Hell, we should just be giving them money, no questions asked.
 
2022-12-07 6:39:05 PM  

Unsung_Hero: Ragin' Asian: Forgiving debt doesn't do shiat without providing sustainable support that eventually leads to self-sufficiency.

Why not?  Seriously, Africans are human beings, not dumb animals.  Within tiny, tiny fractions of a fraction they're genetically the same as everyone else.

Africa has plenty of resources and plenty of ingenious people, and unlike when Western civilization was forming and developing into the Developed Western Democracies, the nations of Africa have access to hoards of modern knowledge.

Released from debt, the raw ingredients to be successful existed, and they didn't have to figure out the recipe either.  They could have kicked out any exploitative foreign companies.  So far as I'm aware, the US isn't currently engaging in regime change and supporting brutal dictatorships on the continent.

Failed or failing nations in Africa have cultural problems, and those can eventually be overcome.  Eventually.  It's a shame that couldn't be accomplished before the Chinese started their financial conquest, though.


All those modern bootstraps and access to modern aglet technology?  You're right, how could that possibly not have worked out.
 
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