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(SFist)   Involuntarily commitment could be the tool needed to clean up city streets, politics tab   (sfist.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, New York City, New York Mayor Eric Adams, Psychiatry, Mental health, sweeping new policy, press conference Tuesday morning, lack of sufficient mental health, legal challenges  
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1967 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Dec 2022 at 11:20 PM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-12-03 6:52:29 PM  
So  thousands of mental health beds in a facility that is already staffed with licensed professionals have been built in secret and Adams will do a surprise unveiling next week?
 
2022-12-03 7:15:44 PM  

eurotrader: So  thousands of mental health beds in a facility that is already staffed with licensed professionals have been built in secret and Adams will do a surprise unveiling next week?


"Adams said in his remarks Tuesday that NY Governor Kathy Hochul had committed to bringing 50 new mental healthcare beds to the city"

Dozens!
 
2022-12-03 7:23:51 PM  

WickerNipple: eurotrader: So  thousands of mental health beds in a facility that is already staffed with licensed professionals have been built in secret and Adams will do a surprise unveiling next week?

"Adams said in his remarks Tuesday that NY Governor Kathy Hochul had committed to bringing 50 new mental healthcare beds to the city"

Dozens!


50 beds isn't enough to clean up 8th and 48th.
 
2022-12-03 7:27:02 PM  
Well bob we could either build shelters for the homeless and in so doing inject millions into the local economy to build them OR, and here's the kicker, we do none of that and crowd out people from mental hospitals onto the streets, thus making them homeless.
 
2022-12-03 7:42:36 PM  

koder: Well bob we could either build shelters for the homeless and in so doing inject millions into the local economy to build them OR, and here's the kicker, we do none of that and crowd out people from mental hospitals onto the streets, thus making them homeless.


I wonder do you run into NIMBY problems when building facilities like that
 
2022-12-03 8:08:16 PM  
Housing first is supported by data, but it's obviously more important to punish people for failing at life.
 
2022-12-03 8:08:31 PM  
The problem is getting the funding committed (voluntarily or otherwise) to actually care for those people instead of just locking them up in a worse-than-prison prison.
 
2022-12-03 8:19:12 PM  

incendi: The problem is getting the funding committed (voluntarily or otherwise) to actually care for those people instead of just locking them up in a worse-than-prison prison.


Over 50% of all mental health "treatment" in the US occurs in prison and jails. Mostly consists of drugging instead of actual treatment.

/Ask zombie Reagan what happened to all the public money that was going to be spent on community health after closing the big asylums.
 
2022-12-03 8:34:23 PM  
Super Hans And Jez Try To Get Mark Sectioned - Peep Show
Youtube r8ngDnWwFBI

It does make for a great sitcom plotline.
 
2022-12-03 9:05:16 PM  

Gubbo: koder: Well bob we could either build shelters for the homeless and in so doing inject millions into the local economy to build them OR, and here's the kicker, we do none of that and crowd out people from mental hospitals onto the streets, thus making them homeless.

I wonder do you run into NIMBY problems when building facilities like that


That's a smart point to bring up, and yes, you do. You always do.
 
2022-12-03 9:13:02 PM  

Gubbo: koder: Well bob we could either build shelters for the homeless and in so doing inject millions into the local economy to build them OR, and here's the kicker, we do none of that and crowd out people from mental hospitals onto the streets, thus making them homeless.

I wonder do you run into NIMBY problems when building facilities like that


Denver had to change location three times to build a small tiny homes area to house the unhoused.
The first location was in the back parking lot of the Denver coliseum which could be described as a colorful area. NIMBY plus developers is a definite issue
 
2022-12-03 9:24:40 PM  

yahyahyah: Gubbo: koder: Well bob we could either build shelters for the homeless and in so doing inject millions into the local economy to build them OR, and here's the kicker, we do none of that and crowd out people from mental hospitals onto the streets, thus making them homeless.

I wonder do you run into NIMBY problems when building facilities like that

That's a smart point to bring up, and yes, you do. You always do.


Ah. You have not seen drunk Gubbo posting.
 
2022-12-03 9:42:31 PM  
obviously the police will use it reasonably and with total restraint as they do in all things.

/involuntary commitment is cruel and they will weaponize it against the poor, POC, and those who oppose them. Literally today they used the anti-terrorist squad to beat up abortion clinic escorts
 
2022-12-03 11:23:31 PM  
And then they'll pass laws defining LGBT people as mentally ill....
 
2022-12-03 11:24:07 PM  

eurotrader: WickerNipple: eurotrader: So  thousands of mental health beds in a facility that is already staffed with licensed professionals have been built in secret and Adams will do a surprise unveiling next week?

"Adams said in his remarks Tuesday that NY Governor Kathy Hochul had committed to bringing 50 new mental healthcare beds to the city"

Dozens!

50 beds isn't enough to clean up 8th and 48th.


"Look, it's better than nothing."

- moderates to progressives every time progressives complain something isn't good enough
 
2022-12-03 11:24:26 PM  

weddingsinger: obviously the police will use it reasonably and with total restraint as they do in all things.

/involuntary commitment is cruel and they will weaponize it against the poor, POC, and those who oppose them. Literally today they used the anti-terrorist squad to beat up abortion clinic escorts


Damn, is there a link to that ?
 
2022-12-03 11:24:57 PM  

Gubbo: koder: Well bob we could either build shelters for the homeless and in so doing inject millions into the local economy to build them OR, and here's the kicker, we do none of that and crowd out people from mental hospitals onto the streets, thus making them homeless.

I wonder do you run into NIMBY problems when building facilities like that


Of course, we could just give them actual homes as opposed to "shelters."
 
2022-12-03 11:25:48 PM  

revrendjim: Housing first is supported by data, but it's obviously more important to punish people for failing at life.


This.

Housing-first is cheaper and more effective. But we can't do that because we hate poor people.
 
2022-12-03 11:27:08 PM  
Or it may be something cops use to abuse people that upset them.
Tomato, Tomato
 
2022-12-03 11:27:58 PM  

austerity101: revrendjim: Housing first is supported by data, but it's obviously more important to punish people for failing at life.

This.

Housing-first is cheaper and more effective. But we can't do that because we hate poor people.


God, do you even believe in America?
 
2022-12-03 11:28:55 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-12-03 11:30:46 PM  
static01.nyt.comView Full Size

Hey guys, what's going on?
 
2022-12-03 11:31:50 PM  

yahyahyah: Gubbo: koder: Well bob we could either build shelters for the homeless and in so doing inject millions into the local economy to build them OR, and here's the kicker, we do none of that and crowd out people from mental hospitals onto the streets, thus making them homeless.

I wonder do you run into NIMBY problems when building facilities like that

That's a smart point to bring up, and yes, you do. You always do.


You'd think between homeless people on the streets and poor people in homes it would be an easy decision for the NIMBY types, but the cruelty is the point.
 
2022-12-03 11:35:53 PM  

Aussie_As: [YouTube video: Super Hans And Jez Try To Get Mark Sectioned - Peep Show]
It does make for a great sitcom plotline.


This show is great, but man, the way they just stare into the camera is incredibly unnerving.
 
2022-12-03 11:37:37 PM  
This country has had a "Nurse Shortage" since 1918 and Adams is telling me has the staff of mental health professionals in place to handle this?

He's a lying, miserable, piece of used food.
 
2022-12-03 11:40:31 PM  

2wolves: This country has had a "Nurse Shortage" since 1918 and Adams is telling me has the staff of mental health professionals in place to handle this?

He's a lying, miserable, piece of used food.


And all signs point to massive crisis in our medical system. We have widespread medication shortages as well as staffing shortages, and are currently having three pandemics at once: COVID, the most recent flu virus, and RSV.

Hospitals are already buckling under the burden and this jackass thinks we can use rooms to just store people whose only real crime was... not being able to afford housing in an insane housing market that is actively designed to make it difficult to be housed.
 
2022-12-03 11:40:33 PM  

austerity101: eurotrader: WickerNipple: eurotrader: So  thousands of mental health beds in a facility that is already staffed with licensed professionals have been built in secret and Adams will do a surprise unveiling next week?

"Adams said in his remarks Tuesday that NY Governor Kathy Hochul had committed to bringing 50 new mental healthcare beds to the city"

Dozens!

50 beds isn't enough to clean up 8th and 48th.

"Look, it's better than nothing."

- moderates to progressives every time progressives complain something isn't good enough


Nobody is saying that in this thread. In fact everyone is quite pointedly saying that this is a bad idea for all of the obvious reasons.

Maybe take a break from sprinting in cannons blazing and full on mad about "moderates" when there was no division until you insisted on there being one?
 
2022-12-03 11:43:37 PM  
problem isnt really housing. it's services and and programs after. you cant put a hard core homeless person into a room without onsite monitors and cleaning crews to name a few. people will straight trash that sh*t quick. this is the real issue. then the liability. get sued a few times by a guy who gets sick from smearing sh*t on his walls. its way more complicated than "give everyone a house!"
 
2022-12-03 11:52:16 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


This wasn't a how-to guide.
 
2022-12-03 11:52:31 PM  

thealgorerhythm: [static01.nyt.com image 850x589]
Hey guys, what's going on?


Clinton, Obama Clash at Debate
Youtube opNmTcTwFp0
 
2022-12-03 11:55:25 PM  
Rampant homelessness in the wealthiest nation in the history of the planet is just another symptom of a problem no politician is willing to address.

Building them homes won't solve the problem. Locking them in jails won't solve it. Nor will throwing them in mental institutions, ignoring them, bussing them to Martha's Vineyard, etc.

The problem isn't THAT they're homeless, the problem is how and why they became homeless in the first place: Massive wealth disparity, inequality, racism, and the wealthy 1%'s control of government.
 
2022-12-03 11:56:14 PM  
unhoused

*snerk*

/ what about the unapartmented? Not everyone is cut out for homehouseownership
 
2022-12-03 11:56:36 PM  

Por que tan serioso: problem isnt really housing. it's services and and programs after. you cant put a hard core homeless person into a room without onsite monitors and cleaning crews to name a few. people will straight trash that sh*t quick. this is the real issue. then the liability. get sued a few times by a guy who gets sick from smearing sh*t on his walls. its way more complicated than "give everyone a house!"


I interact with Veterans that I can get into housing by them simply asking and over half still refuse because they are not ready to live by a set of rules again. The problem is much bigger than just available housing.
 
2022-12-03 11:58:02 PM  

austerity101: revrendjim: Housing first is supported by data, but it's obviously more important to punish people for failing at life.

This.

Housing-first is cheaper and more effective. But we can't do that because we hate poor people.


I looked up housing-first, and found it helped Houston. Here's another at the NYTimes.


Sounds promising for the newly homeless. The regular old homeless, the ones that are years into homelessness. It wouldn't work. We like to think everyone will succeed if only we give them a chance, but naw. They would view any help as them "getting over" on you. They are for the streets.

It's like trying to change a hoe into a housewife. If they are for the streets, save yourself the trouble and leave them there.
 
2022-12-03 11:59:51 PM  
Habitual offenders cycle through the legal system like its a revolving door. Something needs to be done to de-incentivize petty crime. Is this proposal the right answer? I don't know but this conversation is long overdue.
 
2022-12-04 12:00:51 AM  
It's really the only way.
 
2022-12-04 12:01:41 AM  
I have a mentally ill sibling, We knew what was coming. The law didn't help, it cost a life.Families aren't  being helped. They are being ignored.
 
2022-12-04 12:02:36 AM  
You involuntarily commit a bunch of people, you trigger a bunch of legal shiat. It's like tossing someone in jail, but instead of a bail hearing, you're asking the state to prove they're a danger to themselves or others.
And they get a lawyer. And they can typically continue to challenge that determination periodically.

Now if you ignore the extra caseload the health department lawyers and the public defenders are saddled with, you're still wasting the judge's time and the clerks' time. Chucking this at already overworked PDs will just result in them quitting. All of this is external to the padded room and shoelace storage, and also costs money.

And incidentally, IVCing somebody really doesn't help them mentally. The tactic is threat elimination - whisking you somewhere, drugging you, and stripping you of anything remotely dangerous - not actually trying to treat you. IVCing someone who is just kind of dirty will literally drive them nuts. Maybe that's Adams's goal?
 
2022-12-04 12:02:45 AM  

Ringshadow: 2wolves: This country has had a "Nurse Shortage" since 1918 and Adams is telling me has the staff of mental health professionals in place to handle this?

He's a lying, miserable, piece of used food.

And all signs point to massive crisis in our medical system. We have widespread medication shortages as well as staffing shortages, and are currently having three pandemics at once: COVID, the most recent flu virus, and RSV.

Hospitals are already buckling under the burden and this jackass thinks we can use rooms to just store people whose only real crime was... not being able to afford housing in an insane housing market that is actively designed to make it difficult to be housed.


Yes, but dealing with THAT would imply getting in the way of oligarch criminals using housing for money laundering and smaller oligarchs using it for rent-seeking. In addition to NIMBYs and BANANAs. So we get "solutions" like "yeah just send them to worse-than-prison prison" instead.

The problem is only made worse because land prices are legitimately extremely high in big cities so anyone proposing affordable housing will be directly fought and also stabbed in the back by property developers at every turn.

We're having some degree of success here in Bumbase Alpha with safe shelter facilities, mini houses, huts, etc... What was a tidal wave of homelessness rising all through the 2010s, then getting even worse thanks to covid, is visibly receding. It's not exactly peachy but there are no longer people with carts by every park bench or tents under every overpass. I also believe up in Portland they finally rearranged how the city's executive works which might help resolve some of its catastrophic dysfunction as well.
 
2022-12-04 12:02:50 AM  

thealgorerhythm: [static01.nyt.com image 850x589]
Hey guys, what's going on?


God, I hate that guy. His sickly sweet, down home, country bigotry. His aw shucks grandfatherly trickle down bullshiat. He normalized the abdication of institutional responsibility. Worse than Nixon. Worse than Trump. Worse than Buchanan. A farking shiatstain of worthless populist idiocy.
 
2022-12-04 12:04:03 AM  
The comment section was just as rational and polite as expected for any discussion to be found on the internet.
 
2022-12-04 12:12:07 AM  
Y'all elected a cop for mayor. WTF did you expect?
 
2022-12-04 12:12:39 AM  

Ringshadow: [Fark user image image 679x382]


Wow, it only costs them $401,500 a year to take care of their healthcare??

/kidding, but there are no units in this image
 
2022-12-04 12:12:56 AM  

Roastbeast Sammich: weddingsinger: obviously the police will use it reasonably and with total restraint as they do in all things.

/involuntary commitment is cruel and they will weaponize it against the poor, POC, and those who oppose them. Literally today they used the anti-terrorist squad to beat up abortion clinic escorts

Damn, is there a link to that ?


Yeah, I can't find anything about it.  Do you have details?
 
2022-12-04 12:13:04 AM  
I'm ok with this

/But then, I'm f*cking nuts, too
 
2022-12-04 12:14:21 AM  

Por que tan serioso: problem isnt really housing. it's services and and programs after. you cant put a hard core homeless person into a room without onsite monitors and cleaning crews to name a few. people will straight trash that sh*t quick. this is the real issue. then the liability. get sued a few times by a guy who gets sick from smearing sh*t on his walls. its way more complicated than "give everyone a house!"


Of course, housing-first approach absolutely addresses this, and anyone who thinks housing-first means "Housing and literally no other support" is either a f*cking moron or a deliberately dishonest asshole.
 
2022-12-04 12:14:23 AM  

BoneSmuggler: thealgorerhythm: [static01.nyt.com image 850x589]
Hey guys, what's going on?

God, I hate that guy. His sickly sweet, down home, country bigotry. His aw shucks grandfatherly trickle down bullshiat. He normalized the abdication of institutional responsibility. Worse than Nixon. Worse than Trump. Worse than Buchanan. A farking shiatstain of worthless populist idiocy.


YouKeepUsingThatWord.jpg

"I welcome anyone who wants to join the fight against conservatism, a movement that will celebrate the 40th anniversary of Ronald Reagan's presidential triumph this November. But whenever we hear our designated authorities and opinion leaders use 'populism' as a synonym for everything that is wrong with that movement, we should remember that the word was originally invented to designate precisely the opposite sensibility.

Unlike other political terms, we know almost exactly where, when, and why the word 'populism' came to be. It was coined in May 1891 by a group of Kansas politicos riding on a train between Kansas City and Topeka; a 'populist' was to be a shorthand expression for supporters of a third-party movement then beginning to challenge the shibboleths of 19-century politics and economics.

The Populist party, as it came to be known, was part of a leftwing flowering then happening around the world, the rough American equivalent of the labor parties and social-democratic unions springing up in other lands. 'Populism', as its adherents saw it, was a fine and hopeful thing, a mass movement of farmers and industrial workers demanding action by the government to improve the economic situation of ordinary people and, while they were at it, a war on corruption as well. In an extremely unusual move for the time, the populists tried, in the movement's early days, to enlist black farmers alongside white ones in the south in their fight for economic reform. (It didn't end well.)"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/12/we-need-to-reclaim-populism-from-the-right-it-has-a-long-proud-leftwing-history
 
2022-12-04 12:14:32 AM  
There are three primary causes for homelessness.
1. Mental illness
2. Substance abuse
3. Lack of affordable low cost housing.

They're not interchangeable. Giving someone a house without addressing their mental illness ensures they'll be living in squalor or worse in no time; tying housing to not using drugs (like Section 8 already does) puts an impossible burden on people trying to get clean and get jobs.

All these things need to happen at the same time before homelessness is going to be cured. There have to be more hospital beds and the requirements for involuntary commitment have to be loosened. AND there need to be more support services for substance abuse recovery and less NIMBYism blocking treatment centers. AND we need to stop this bullshiat about tiny houses and just bring back single room occupancy apartments so low-income workers can pay a hundred bucks a week for rent.

Stop shooting for perfection and aim for best possible.
 
2022-12-04 12:17:38 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: unhoused

*snerk*

/ what about the unapartmented? Not everyone is cut out for homehouseownership


I'm sure they have a reason for using all these farking terms but this PC word of the day shiat really doesn't help.
The only one I ever understood was "experiencing homelessness" because yes, you are hopefully not permanently homeless, not defined by your homelessness, sure.

But the amount of time people spend discussing and inventing these more precise words, someone is still unsheltered/houseless/unhoused/experiencing homelessness and the grant this masters degree dipshiat would be better spent on nails and 2x4s. Rather than destigmatizing, they're becoming less intelligible to a broader audience.
 
2022-12-04 12:17:57 AM  

Por que tan serioso: problem isnt really housing. it's services and and programs after. you cant put a hard core homeless person into a room without onsite monitors and cleaning crews to name a few. people will straight trash that sh*t quick. this is the real issue. then the liability. get sued a few times by a guy who gets sick from smearing sh*t on his walls. its way more complicated than "give everyone a house!"


You've got 3 basic overlapping classes of those who are homeless:

Poor folks who were one unlucky event away from not making rent whose luck finally ran out (the have nots) - the majority
People who have serious mental problems to the point they cannot hold down a job (the can nots) - a significant minority
Criminal parasites who are perfectly capable of being useful members of society but actively choose not to be (the will nots) - a small minority of assholes who ruin everything for everyone

Without getting them real, actual, serious treatment, putting people with mental health problems or drug addictions into housing is a recipe for nothing other than the housing being destroyed.
 
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