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(Some Guy)   How ironic would it be that the once place where everything is trying to kill you becomes the one place that's actually saving the planet?   (returntonow.net) divider line
25
    More: Cool, Hydrogen vehicle, Fuel cell, Electric vehicle, hydrogen-powered vehicles, Automobile, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, conventional electric vehicle, Clean Technica's words  
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911 clicks; posted to STEM » on 02 Dec 2022 at 11:42 AM (15 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



25 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
Drunken Rampage [TotalFark]
2022-12-02 10:37:30 AM  
No irony there. Kill humans, save the planet. For other animals and plants.
 
Badmoodman [TotalFark]
2022-12-02 10:40:43 AM  
How ironic would it be that the once place where everything is trying to kill you becomes the one place that's actually saving the planet?


Narrator: It isn't, and won't, save the planet.
 
no1curr [TotalFark]
2022-12-02 11:15:43 AM  
The only thing that can save the planet now is if a big purple alien with a pretty rock collection snaps his fingers

/s
 
NewportBarGuy [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-02 11:23:07 AM  
You mean the technology Elon Musk has been railing against for decades?
 
natazha [BareFark]
2022-12-02 11:51:16 AM  

Badmoodman: How ironic would it be that the once place where everything is trying to kill you becomes the one place that's actually saving the planet?


Narrator: It isn't, and won't, save the planet.


Hydrogen is so energy-intensive to make, transport and store it is unlikely to ever be a significant part of the economy. You lose half the input energy in making it and 40-60% in the fuel cells. Contrast that to the 90%+ efficiency for battery EVs.
 
DecemberNitro
2022-12-02 11:54:19 AM  

NewportBarGuy: You mean the technology Elon Musk has been railing against for decades?


That probably means it's good.
 
Spectrum
2022-12-02 12:00:59 PM  
Hydrogen is a pipe dream. But I repeat myself. For 20 damn years. Right here on Fark.
 
NewportBarGuy [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-02 12:09:08 PM  

DecemberNitro: NewportBarGuy: You mean the technology Elon Musk has been railing against for decades?

That probably means it's good.


Exactly.
 
FarkingChas
2022-12-02 12:12:59 PM  
Just wait until all the flooded roads from the water being created. Where will your hydrogen god be then?
:)
 
Vlad_the_Inaner
2022-12-02 12:17:06 PM  
" Unlike a traditional electric vehicle, hydrogen vehicles have no heavy battery to store electricity. Instead, they produce a steady supply of electricity as the car drives by pulling in oxygen from the atmosphere and mixing it with the hydrogen stored in their tanks. The process is called electrolysis.  "

Pretty sure that's called oxidation (inside a fuel cell), as opposed to breaking water into its elemental components using electricity.
 
Incog_Neeto
2022-12-02 12:33:10 PM  

Drunken Rampage: No irony there. Kill humans, save the planet. For other animals and plants.


Yes I killed 700 people your honor but think of all the emissions I saved the planet.
 
Evil Twin Skippy [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-02 1:25:02 PM  

natazha: Badmoodman: How ironic would it be that the once place where everything is trying to kill you becomes the one place that's actually saving the planet?


Narrator: It isn't, and won't, save the planet.

Hydrogen is so energy-intensive to make, transport and store it is unlikely to ever be a significant part of the economy. You lose half the input energy in making it and 40-60% in the fuel cells. Contrast that to the 90%+ efficiency for battery EVs.


The other non-Starter is the complete lack of energy density, at least as compared to fossil fuel. One kilogram of gasoline contain 45 megajoules of energy. (A stick of dynamite is about 1 megajoule.) That gallon can be stored in a simple tank. One kg of gasoline fills a volume slightly more than 1 liter.

On one hand, hydrogen has an energy density of 145 megajoules per kilogram. However 1 kg of hydrogen is a pain in the ass to store. As a cryogenic liquid it would occupy 14 liters of space. But nobody in their right mind would be driving around with it as a cryogenic liquid, so instead you end up with a massive high pressure tank.

The only reason it works at all is because fuel cells and electric motors are a more efficient power conversion than burning gasoline inside of a cylinder. But the added weight of storage tanks and complete lack of useful cargo space make a hydrogen vehicle a niche product at vast.
 
Hal5423
2022-12-02 1:30:04 PM  
I remember hearing about this on NPR when I was driving home from school in the late 90s/ early 2000s. I never thought we would actually see this technology on the roads.
 
amigafin [BareFark]
2022-12-02 2:12:24 PM  
Hydrogen?  "I can't wait for the next Graf Turismo to come out!"
 
aarond12
2022-12-02 3:20:32 PM  

FarkingChas: Just wait until all the flooded roads from the water being created. Where will your hydrogen god be then?
:)


Okay, that's funny... but it's also rooted in reality. I was following a Toyota Mirai going 80+ in California. The amount of water vapor produced to keep the vehicle going that fast was enough that I needed to use my wipers occasionally. Seriously, if every car was a fuel-cell vehicle, that is a real concern.

Also, TFA is spouting the ideal refueling time for FCVs. In reality, the 5-minute refueling time is only on certain stations when they're working at full capacity. Most of the time, the refueling time is 15-20 minutes, which is on-par with the fastest-recharging EVs.
 
aarond12
2022-12-02 3:25:54 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: " Unlike a traditional electric vehicle, hydrogen vehicles have no heavy battery to store electricity.


Actually, they do. Fuel cells cannot produce the amount of power needed to run the motors at full power. They use a smaller battery (than an EV) as a buffer to provide those "peak" energy requirements, like accelerating from a stop and storing the charge from the regenerative braking.
 
MythDragon [TotalFark]
2022-12-02 3:37:05 PM  
So they emit water as a waste product.  And people are okay with this?  Sure a few cars don't make a difference, but what happens when you've got a million cars all putting out water every day?  How long before water levels start rising and flood coastal cities?

These cars are a huge threat to us.
 
Ivo Shandor [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-02 4:07:54 PM  

natazha: Badmoodman: How ironic would it be that the once place where everything is trying to kill you becomes the one place that's actually saving the planet?


Narrator: It isn't, and won't, save the planet.

Hydrogen is so energy-intensive to make, transport and store it is unlikely to ever be a significant part of the economy. You lose half the input energy in making it and 40-60% in the fuel cells. Contrast that to the 90%+ efficiency for battery EVs.


Australia is one place where it might make sense, at least for highway transportation. If you have an oversupply of solar electricity for part of each day, you can afford to lose some of it by creating and compressing hydrogen. If you can get better range and faster refueling vs. hauling a shiat-ton of batteries then it might be an acceptable tradeoff.

For regular cars driving to/from work and shopping malls in a city, batteries are going to win.
 
Ivo Shandor [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-12-02 4:18:07 PM  

aarond12: FarkingChas: Just wait until all the flooded roads from the water being created. Where will your hydrogen god be then?
:)

Okay, that's funny... but it's also rooted in reality. I was following a Toyota Mirai going 80+ in California. The amount of water vapor produced to keep the vehicle going that fast was enough that I needed to use my wipers occasionally. Seriously, if every car was a fuel-cell vehicle, that is a real concern.

Also, TFA is spouting the ideal refueling time for FCVs. In reality, the 5-minute refueling time is only on certain stations when they're working at full capacity. Most of the time, the refueling time is 15-20 minutes, which is on-par with the fastest-recharging EVs.


Regular cars produce water too, from the hydrogen in gasoline. I would have to do some math to figure out how it compares to a fuel-cell vehicle but I doubt if it's a vast difference. A car's A/C will also drip water if the air around it is humid enough.

If it is a real problem then it shouldn't be too hard to fix. Point the drain pipe in a different direction, condense more liquid water out and then mix fresh air into the remaining exhaust stream, etc.
 
Dinjiin [BareFark]
2022-12-02 4:34:31 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: On one hand, hydrogen has an energy density of 145 megajoules per kilogram. However 1 kg of hydrogen is a pain in the ass to store. As a cryogenic liquid it would occupy 14 liters of space. But nobody in their right mind would be driving around with it as a cryogenic liquid, so instead you end up with a massive high pressure tank.


CNG powered vehicles have fuel tanks pressurized to 3600 psi, while it can be as high as 10,000 psi for CH.  Given that the occasional CNG fuel tank pops from time to time, it'll be interesting to see how hydrogen fares.  Plus you have the problem of hydrogen embrittlement of metals.  Yeah, that's going to be an expensive fuel system that will demand regular inspection, certification, and replacement.
 
cryinoutloud [BareFark]
2022-12-02 5:21:15 PM  

natazha: Badmoodman: How ironic would it be that the once place where everything is trying to kill you becomes the one place that's actually saving the planet?
Narrator: It isn't, and won't, save the planet.
Hydrogen is so energy-intensive to make, transport and store it is unlikely to ever be a significant part of the economy. You lose half the input energy in making it and 40-60% in the fuel cells. Contrast that to the 90%+ efficiency for battery EVs.


Sure, that car cost $500,000 to make, and there's no reliable fuel, but think of how great it could be.

Incog_Neeto: Drunken Rampage: No irony there. Kill humans, save the planet. For other animals an
d plants.
Yes I killed 700 people your honor but think of all the emissions I saved the planet.


We could save 700 people every day if we all cut down on our consumption.
No, huh?  You'd rather just keep being a pig, and kill them directly.  It's a power trip.
 
Cephelo
2022-12-02 5:27:05 PM  
The design is neither new nor revolutionary. It is in fact the exact same tech used to power most of manned space flight.

Now to go rewatch Apollo 13 again.
 
yet_another_wumpus
2022-12-02 5:28:23 PM  

aarond12: Vlad_the_Inaner: " Unlike a traditional electric vehicle, hydrogen vehicles have no heavy battery to store electricity.

Actually, they do. Fuel cells cannot produce the amount of power needed to run the motors at full power. They use a smaller battery (than an EV) as a buffer to provide those "peak" energy requirements, like accelerating from a stop and storing the charge from the regenerative braking.


So every "fuel cell" vehicle is a hybrid, with a motor more powerful than the fuel cell can provide.  So if you want to avoid the hassle of most of that hydrogen refueling (because of the disaster of H2's density), you enlarge the battery and make it a plug in hybrid.

But then you have to ask: why are you building the infrastructure nightmare that is a "hydrogen economy" for that 10%-50% use of fuel instead of sticking with gasoline as a range extender for your (mostly) electric car?

And that's the fundamental problem with hydrogen.  First, as mentioned at length above it absolutely sucks as a fuel.  And then there isn't a good means of getting to all that suck: at each step it makes much more sense to jump off and stick with electricity and some hydrocarbon fuel.

/if you really wanted to, that 'final hydrocarbon fuel' could be ethanol
//might require nuclear power or possibly solar furnaces to heat the haber process (or some non-carbon intense similar process)
///but that's seriously long term.  Plug in hybrids show how existing tech can reduce gas use by 90% without huge batteries (Li issue) or the (non-home) charging issues (sucks if you can't get a charger where you park).
 
Spectrum
2022-12-02 9:53:06 PM  

MythDragon: So they emit water as a waste product.  And people are okay with this?  Sure a few cars don't make a difference, but what happens when you've got a million cars all putting out water every day?  How long before water levels start rising and flood coastal cities?

These cars are a huge threat to us.


Every gallon of gasoline burned produces a gallon of water. Brand new water. Burning hydrogen produces no new water.
 
Likwit
2022-12-02 10:33:22 PM  

Ivo Shandor: natazha: Badmoodman: How ironic would it be that the once place where everything is trying to kill you becomes the one place that's actually saving the planet?


Narrator: It isn't, and won't, save the planet.

Hydrogen is so energy-intensive to make, transport and store it is unlikely to ever be a significant part of the economy. You lose half the input energy in making it and 40-60% in the fuel cells. Contrast that to the 90%+ efficiency for battery EVs.

Australia is one place where it might make sense, at least for highway transportation. If you have an oversupply of solar electricity for part of each day, you can afford to lose some of it by creating and compressing hydrogen. If you can get better range and faster refueling vs. hauling a shiat-ton of batteries then it might be an acceptable tradeoff.

For regular cars driving to/from work and shopping malls in a city, batteries are going to win.


The problem is that you lose like 80% of it and it's a huge expense to make, store, and transport. It's a terrible "fuel" for most applications.
 
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