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(ABC7 Chicago)   On the bright side, this validates the US Navy's recent purchase of 10,000 copies of 'How to Avoid Large Ships'   (abc7chicago.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Ship, USS Momsen, USS Harpers Ferry, Dock landing ship, SAN DIEGO, Royal Navy, second Navy official, authenticity of a video  
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3336 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Dec 2022 at 11:35 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-12-02 11:14:43 AM  
Looks like amphibious ship was taking her half of the channel out of the middle of it.
 
2022-12-02 11:37:30 AM  
It wasn't even close and they had to speed up the video to make it appear dramatic.
 
2022-12-02 11:41:21 AM  
If it is anyones fault wouldnt it be the Harbor master?   I thought before entering and leaving most ports you ask the harbor master for permission, for this very reason.
 
2022-12-02 11:41:58 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 11:42:13 AM  
Reminds me of an old urban legend:

A battleship was on exercise at sea in bad weather. The captain was on the bridge. It was foggy. Just after dark the look out spotted a light on the starboard side. The captain asked if it was steady or moving. The look out replied the light was steady meaning they were on direct collision course with that ship! The captain ordered the lookout signal to the other ship:
"Change course 20 degrees. We are on collision course."
The signal came back '"Advisable for you to change course."
The captain signalled '"I am a captain. Change course 20 degrees."
"I am a seaman second class. You had better change course 20 degrees" came the reply.
The captain was furious. He sent back "I am a battleship. Change course!"
Back came the signal, "I am a lighthouse. Your call."
 
2022-12-02 11:42:56 AM  
'I'm going left'

'Ok. Wait, you're left or my left?'

'Starboard!'

'But which one??'
 
2022-12-02 11:45:36 AM  

johnny_vegas: Looks like amphibious ship was taking her half of the channel out of the middle of it.


There's a buoy immediately to port of the Harpers Ferry.  I have no idea what it means in terms of navigational rules, but there it is.

The destroyer has variable pitch propellers, though, and is capable of stopping in less than a ships length even from speed.   It's pretty impressive to see.
 
2022-12-02 11:45:54 AM  

TorpedoOrca: 'I'm going left'

'Ok. Wait, you're left or my left?'

'Starboard!'

'But which one??'


Don't they make captains in the US navy take at least the basic boats exam before they put them behind the wheel?

harbourinsurance.caView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 11:51:13 AM  

Rent Party: johnny_vegas: Looks like amphibious ship was taking her half of the channel out of the middle of it.

There's a buoy immediately to port of the Harpers Ferry.  I have no idea what it means in terms of navigational rules, but there it is.

The destroyer has variable pitch propellers, though, and is capable of stopping in less than a ships length even from speed.   It's pretty impressive to see.


It's a red buoy so it describes the right hand side of the channel as you enter port.  The two ships should have executed a port to port passage (left side of each ship passing the other) with the destroyer just to the left of that buoy
 
2022-12-02 11:53:04 AM  
The best part of the video is the little tug boat nopeing away off to the right. Hell that alone was reason enough to speed up the video.
 
2022-12-02 11:55:19 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


That ship coming out was way too close to the red buoy. He should have been closer to the other buoy. Hogging up the channel. The destroyer captain did the right thing.
 
2022-12-02 11:56:02 AM  

debug: It wasn't even close and they had to speed up the video to make it appear dramatic.


Ship collisions are slow affairs - it takes several minutes for the consequences of a bad decision to really show themselves. This is to give the deck officers plenty of time to regret their mistakes and ponder what their career may hold going forward.
 
2022-12-02 11:57:31 AM  
Locals say a disheveled Italian man was seen fleeing the scene.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 11:59:07 AM  
Red, right, return.
 
2022-12-02 12:01:33 PM  

TorpedoOrca: 'I'm going left'

'Ok. Wait, you're left or my left?'

'Starboard!'

'But which one??'


The both moved portside. Odd choice... US Navy or Royal Navy?
 
TWX
2022-12-02 12:04:25 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]


The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.
 
2022-12-02 12:09:22 PM  

tobcc: If it is anyones fault wouldnt it be the Harbor master?   I thought before entering and leaving most ports you ask the harbor master for permission, for this very reason.


Nah. Being captain of a vessel underway is one of the few situations where the responsibility sits on exactly one person.

This was a nice save on the part of the destroyer captain, but to quote Adm. Ernest King: "The mark of a great ship handler is to never get into situations that require great ship handling."
 
2022-12-02 12:09:59 PM  
They must have traded in an aircraft carrier to afford that many copies of that book.
 
2022-12-02 12:14:02 PM  

TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.


Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.
 
2022-12-02 12:15:13 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image image 826x386]

That ship coming out was way too close to the red buoy. He should have been closer to the other buoy. Hogging up the channel. The destroyer captain did the right thing.


Yeah, as you come around the northern end of North Island you make a ~90 degree turn over 4 legs or so.  It looks like the amphib was cutting a corner in two of the legs

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 12:17:11 PM  

TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.


Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.
 
2022-12-02 12:23:21 PM  
thumbs.gfycat.comView Full Size

Part 2 in a series.
 
2022-12-02 12:27:24 PM  

I Ate Shergar: Reminds me of an old urban legend:

A battleship was on exercise at sea in bad weather. The captain was on the bridge. It was foggy. Just after dark the look out spotted a light on the starboard side. The captain asked if it was steady or moving. The look out replied the light was steady meaning they were on direct collision course with that ship! The captain ordered the lookout signal to the other ship:
"Change course 20 degrees. We are on collision course."
The signal came back '"Advisable for you to change course."
The captain signalled '"I am a captain. Change course 20 degrees."
"I am a seaman second class. You had better change course 20 degrees" came the reply.
The captain was furious. He sent back "I am a battleship. Change course!"
Back came the signal, "I am a lighthouse. Your call."

Came here for this, was not disappointed.

 
TWX
2022-12-02 12:29:43 PM  

Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.


I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.


We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.
 
2022-12-02 12:32:45 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image image 494x245]


If this is Star Wars than one or two naval captains are about to start choking.

The Anakin Skywalker Incentive program certainly cuts back on wasting money on court martials.
 
2022-12-02 12:36:22 PM  

Rent Party: The destroyer has variable pitch propellers, though, and is capable of stopping in less than a ships length even from speed.   It's pretty impressive to see.


Neat, thanks. It continually surprised me how navy craft handle like speedboats. Even the 100,000 ton carriers.


i.insider.comView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 12:39:16 PM  
24 year quartermaster here.  Harpers Ferry is definitely way left of track into the red side of the channel.  She should have been over on the green side going outbound.  I don't know what circumstances led to her being that far over but Momsen did the right thing by turning to port to avoid collision even though she had the right of way.
The preferred action is for vessels to always turn to starboard/right but COLREG #7 states that: "every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt, such risk shall be deemed to exist."If Momsen had turned to starboard she runs the risk of going out of the channel and possibly grounding.
 
2022-12-02 12:39:18 PM  
i.chzbgr.comView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 12:48:48 PM  

Erik_Emune: debug: It wasn't even close and they had to speed up the video to make it appear dramatic.

Ship collisions are slow affairs - it takes several minutes for the consequences of a bad decision to really show themselves. This is to give the deck officers plenty of time to regret their mistakes and ponder what their career may hold going forward.


Welcome to Wal-Mart!
 
2022-12-02 12:53:44 PM  

TK-593: 24 year quartermaster here.  Harpers Ferry is definitely way left of track into the red side of the channel.  She should have been over on the green side going outbound.  I don't know what circumstances led to her being that far over but Momsen did the right thing by turning to port to avoid collision even though she had the right of way.
The preferred action is for vessels to always turn to starboard/right but COLREG #7 states that: "every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt, such risk shall be deemed to exist."If Momsen had turned to starboard she runs the risk of going out of the channel and possibly grounding.


I wish the video started sooner, so that we can see how they both came into that part of the channel.  You could image Momsen was going to start bearing to starboard towards the buoy expecting Harper's Ferry would also bear out towards the green buoy, but delayed her turn when someone on the bridge said something to the effect of "Captain, what the f*ck is that fatass phib doing in our lane...Sir?" Good thing they then got on the radio and worked it out.  My guess is comes down onto the folks on Harper's Ferry, not Momsen, but who really knows?

The article says they were in active communication, and they agreed to
 
2022-12-02 12:58:46 PM  
Great headline.

They should paint a yellow lane marker on the ocean like on the highway. Maybe some orange cones too.
 
2022-12-02 1:01:05 PM  
Alternative title:  "Two Navy Ships Do NOT Hit Each Other."
 
2022-12-02 1:03:47 PM  

TWX: Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.

I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.

We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.


images.squarespace-cdn.comView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 1:03:56 PM  

I Ate Shergar: Reminds me of an old urban legend:

A battleship was on exercise at sea in bad weather. The captain was on the bridge. It was foggy. Just after dark the look out spotted a light on the starboard side. The captain asked if it was steady or moving. The look out replied the light was steady meaning they were on direct collision course with that ship! The captain ordered the lookout signal to the other ship:
"Change course 20 degrees. We are on collision course."
The signal came back '"Advisable for you to change course."
The captain signalled '"I am a captain. Change course 20 degrees."
"I am a seaman second class. You had better change course 20 degrees" came the reply.
The captain was furious. He sent back "I am a battleship. Change course!"
Back came the signal, "I am a lighthouse. Your call."


That's a Sea Story, you know because the original starts with "This is no shiat".
 
2022-12-02 1:06:15 PM  

ShamanGator: The best part of the video is the little tug boat nopeing away off to the right. Hell that alone was reason enough to speed up the video.


Lol. I missed that on the first watch.
 
2022-12-02 1:06:30 PM  
Okay, Sal Mercogliano is on it, as usual:

USS Momsen & Harpers Ferry Both at Fault? The More Context Version of Chicken in San Diego Channel
Youtube 8s18O_iAlKE


Just watching now.
 
2022-12-02 1:09:50 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
TWX
2022-12-02 1:18:22 PM  

Gleeman: TWX: Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.

I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.

We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.

[images.squarespace-cdn.com image 820x1500]


they did meet out of plane a few times actually.  Though that was usually reserved for when something was wrong, like in the TNG season-7 episode, "Genesis," where Picard and Data returning to the ship find it disabled and floating in space as the crew has been incapacitated.

The future-setting in the finale, "All Good Things..." was the notable example where there was an off-plane meeting that resulted in a battle:

Fark user imageView Full Size


But it doesn't really matter what franchise it was, Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, or Battlestar Galactica (the original Glen Larson production), or Star Wars, or even shows like Firefly or Babylon 5, ships generally met in-plane except when something was wrong.
 
2022-12-02 1:19:31 PM  

Warthog: Okay, Sal Mercogliano is on it, as usual:

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/8s18O_iAlKE]

Just watching now.


Having watched the video, I can now safely say that both sides are bad, but both sides did well to avoid the collision after having put themselves in a position to have it.  This might have gone differently at night.
 
TWX
2022-12-02 1:20:24 PM  

Pershing123: [Fark user image 850x637]


Yes, many of us are well-aware that the Soviets produced many of the most detailed maps of the United States (and of other NATO nations) albeit with occasional glaring errors due to misinterpretation of some structure or feature, to aid them in the event that WWIII had come to fruition and required ground campaigns and invasions.
 
2022-12-02 1:29:16 PM  

TWX: Gleeman: TWX: Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.

I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.

We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.

[images.squarespace-cdn.com image 820x1500]

they did meet out of plane a few times actually.  Though that was usually reserved for when something was wrong, like in the TNG season-7 episode, "Genesis," where Picard and Data returning to the ship find it disabled and floating in space as the crew has been incapacitated.

The future-setting in the finale, "All Good Things..." was the notable example where there was an off-plane meeting that resulted in a battle:

[Fark user image image 350x263]

But it doesn't really matter what franchise it was, Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, or Battlestar Galactica (the original Glen Larson production), or Star Wars, or even shows like Firefly or Babylon 5, ships generally met in-plane except when something was wrong.


For Star Trek, they would want to keep it in plane because of the huge cross section you'd present a ship approaching from above or below. Which would probably be an issue in itself.
 
2022-12-02 1:33:30 PM  

ArkPanda: TWX: Gleeman: TWX: Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.

I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.

We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.

[images.squarespace-cdn.com image 820x1500]

they did meet out of plane a few times actually.  Though that was usually reserved for when something was wrong, like in the TNG season-7 episode, "Genesis," where Picard and Data returning to the ship find it disabled and floating in space as the crew has been incapacitated.

The future-setting in the finale, "All Good Things..." was the notable example where there was an off-plane meeting that resulted in a battle:

[Fark user image image 350x263]

But it doesn't really matter what franchise it was, Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, or Battlestar Galactica (the original Glen Larson production), or Star Wars, or even shows like Firefly or Babylon 5, ships generally met in-plane except when something was wrong.

For Star Trek, they would want to keep it in plane because of the huge cross section you'd present a ship approaching from above or below. Which would probably be an issue in itself.


FWIW the Borg cubes were the most practical space-only ship design in the Trekverse.
 
2022-12-02 1:35:58 PM  

TWX: Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.

I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.

We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.


It gets more laughably bad with spacecraft lining up to fire broadsides at each other *cough*Honor Harrington*cough*
 
2022-12-02 1:37:16 PM  
FTA... "The incident occurred in a somewhat narrow part of the channel that requires constant turns, according to the Navy official. The commanders of both ships agreed in advance to traverse the channel simultaneously and pass by in opposite directions."

That was the first avoidable mistake.
 
2022-12-02 1:37:34 PM  

Warthog: TK-593: 24 year quartermaster here.  Harpers Ferry is definitely way left of track into the red side of the channel.  She should have been over on the green side going outbound.  I don't know what circumstances led to her being that far over but Momsen did the right thing by turning to port to avoid collision even though she had the right of way.
The preferred action is for vessels to always turn to starboard/right but COLREG #7 states that: "every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt, such risk shall be deemed to exist."If Momsen had turned to starboard she runs the risk of going out of the channel and possibly grounding.

I wish the video started sooner, so that we can see how they both came into that part of the channel.  You could image Momsen was going to start bearing to starboard towards the buoy expecting Harper's Ferry would also bear out towards the green buoy, but delayed her turn when someone on the bridge said something to the effect of "Captain, what the f*ck is that fatass phib doing in our lane...Sir?" Good thing they then got on the radio and worked it out.  My guess is comes down onto the folks on Harper's Ferry, not Momsen, but who really knows?

The article says they were in active communication, and they agreed to


I don't know those waters, and didn't bother to look at a chart, but the only thing I can think of is maybe Harper's Ferry was constrained by draft to that side of the channel, or somebody found out where that big pry bar that they lost the last time while they were working on the steering gear went to... or maybe it was break time on the bridge..  should be interdasting to read the final report.
 
2022-12-02 1:37:53 PM  

ArkPanda: TWX: Gleeman: TWX: Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.

I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.

We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.

[images.squarespace-cdn.com image 820x1500]

they did meet out of plane a few times actually.  Though that was usually reserved for when something was wrong, like in the TNG season-7 episode, "Genesis," where Picard and Data returning to the ship find it disabled and floating in space as the crew has been incapacitated.

The future-setting in the finale, "All Good Things..." was the notable example where there was an off-plane meeting that resulted in a battle:

[Fark user image image 350x263]

But it doesn't really matter what franchise it was, Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, or Battlestar Galactica (the original Glen Larson production), or Star Wars, or even shows like Firefly or Babylon 5, ships generally met in-plane except when something was wrong.

For Star Trek, they would want to keep it in plane because of the huge cross section you'd present a ship approaching from above or below. Which would probably be an issue in itself.


Yeah, but I cross your T with all the weaponry that cross section could bring to bear.
 
2022-12-02 1:41:07 PM  
th.bing.comView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 1:43:52 PM  

TWX: Gleeman: TWX: Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.

I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.

We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.

[images.squarespace-cdn.com image 820x1500]

they did meet out of plane a few times actually.  Though that was usually reserved for when something was wrong, like in the TNG season-7 episode, "Genesis," where Picard and Data returning to the ship find it disabled and floating in space as the crew has been incapacitated.

The future-setting in the finale, "All Good Things..." was the notable example where there was an off-plane meeting that resulted in a battle:

[Fark user image image 350x263]

But it doesn't really matter what franchise it was, Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, or Battlestar Galactica (the original Glen Larson production), or Star Wars, or even shows like Firefly or Babylon 5, ships generally met in-plane except when something was wrong.


Babylon 5 first large scale battle with the Shadow
Youtube c-Nu3A-q1mU

This one had ships oriented the same way while arriving as a fleet, but plenty of stuff going in different directions during combat.

If two spaceships happened to be approaching each other for a peaceful meeting, the navigation computers could easily be programmed to agree on a common definition for "up" and both rotate to that orientation before they were close enough to see the other ship outside your window.
 
2022-12-02 1:48:30 PM  

Ivo Shandor: TWX: Gleeman: TWX: Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.

I could see it having been necessary during the Age of Sail, simply because smallcraft couldn't muster the speed and endurance for pursuits, and it would have been necessary for one fairly large ship to come alongside another ship in order to perform a hostile boarding.

Smallcraft would have either been unable to mount the sails necessary to maintain speed with the ship being pursued, or if using muscle-power to propel, would've suffered enough fatigue among the crew to where they were ineffective on trying to board.

Charlie Freak: Well, not to mention Star Destroyers all seem to be operated on the same horizontal plane. You never see one upside-down or any other kind of a-sconce. That would eliminate their defensive blind spots.

We can't really attribute that to just Star Wars though.  It's so vanishingly-rare when science fiction features ships' rendezvous at oblique angles that it's frankly noteworthy.

[images.squarespace-cdn.com image 820x1500]

they did meet out of plane a few times actually.  Though that was usually reserved for when something ...


y.yarn.coView Full Size
 
2022-12-02 2:07:50 PM  

Erik_Emune: TWX: Red Shirt Blues: [Fark user image 494x245]

The more I read military science fiction, the more that scene pisses me off.

In most SF literature, space engagements are conducted at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.  Interceptions are conducted with smallcraft and teams of specialized soldiers.

Capital ships are used for line-of-battle/wall-of-battle scenarios, or for pursuits of sufficiently large adversarial ships or task forces.  Capital ships launch those smallcraft when pursuits need to get especially close, lest, like in this scene, simple ship-handling errors lead to exactly the kinds of situations featured in that scene.

Yet, it happens - or happened - with disturbing regularity back when capital ships slugged it out in ship-to-ship engagements. Even moreso when there was no concept of bridge resource management and the captain's orders were the Voice of God.


Also it tended to be really hard to see and even harder to communicate effectively ship to ship
 
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