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(Yahoo)   Rolls-Royce successfully tests hydrogen-powered jet engine so quietly and smoothly not even the clocks knew it   (finance.yahoo.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Internal combustion engine, aircraft engine, Britain's Rolls-Royce, Turbine, Airbus, Aircraft engine, Turboprop, Eric Schulz  
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988 clicks; posted to Business » on 28 Nov 2022 at 10:00 AM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



16 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-11-28 9:24:04 AM  
Here's one with a fuel tank that will keep it flying for nearly half an hour.
hips.hearstapps.comView Full Size
 
2022-11-28 9:26:03 AM  
Been buying their stock for a "throw $1,000 at it and forget about it for 20 years"...
 
2022-11-28 10:03:43 AM  
Hydrogen in an airship?  What could go wrong?

cdn.britannica.comView Full Size
 
2022-11-28 10:25:11 AM  

Wireless Joe: Hydrogen in an airship?  What could go wrong?

[cdn.britannica.com image 850x678]


good thing JP-8 isn't flammable
 
2022-11-28 10:39:10 AM  
I wonder how they're resolving the energy density problem. Hydrogen compresses, obviously, so that helps, but what kind of pressures are we talking here to get it to hydrocarbon levels?

I'm thinking that the vessels will need to have carbon fiber involved at least, and dear gods, the valve system...
 
2022-11-28 10:41:57 AM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Wireless Joe: Hydrogen in an airship?  What could go wrong?

[cdn.britannica.com image 850x678]

good thing JP-8 isn't flammable


I think it's more an issue of stability than flammability.  Plus, everyone knows jet fuel is safer because it can't melt steel beams.
 
2022-11-28 10:54:41 AM  
Here's a chart explaining why this is very likely a bad idea. Basically any amount of hydrogen + air is explosive. There's no 'careful balance of fuel-air' required to make it combust.

Fark user imageView Full Size


It's also hard to store it efficiently. It's not very dense, even as a liquid--though it does have an impressive expansion ratio from liquid. It's also a tiny molecule--so it will seep through almost any material.

See also page 1-24 for what a "fire from ruptured hydrogen fuel cell" looks like in a car, then imagine that coming out the side of your airplane: https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm01r0.pdf

Don't get me wrong, hydrogen would solve a lot of problems as a fuel. But the safety thing still worries me, a lot. If my neighbor's car exploded right now, I might hear it with my headphones on. If it were filled with hydrogen and exploded, it would likely level my house.
 
2022-11-28 11:11:04 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Here's one with a fuel tank that will keep it flying for nearly half an hour.
[hips.hearstapps.com image 850x550]


To be honest, that might not be as crazy as it looks.  Planes loaded up for the London/Sydney trip tend to take off with more than half their weight in jet fuel.  Of course, I can't imagine making a plane exclusively for trans-pacific *plus* trips, but for that tiny reason, hydrogen *might* make sense.  Can't see a plane being designed specifically for that route, even though it means you only need 10% or less of the plane to be fuel and can carry more passengers and cargo instead of fuel.

ajgeek: I wonder how they're resolving the energy density problem. Hydrogen compresses, obviously, so that helps, but what kind of pressures are we talking here to get it to hydrocarbon levels?

I'm thinking that the vessels will need to have carbon fiber involved at least, and dear gods, the valve system...


No.  Liquid hydrogen is as compressed as it will get.  I'm sure some deluded farker will suggest "storing it in a matrix".  Except said matrix will weigh a lot more than hydrogen itself.  Although you can compress hydrogen fairly well by linking it to a fairly light element, preferably with multiple hydrogen atoms at a time.  Carbon chains can hold two hydrogens together and 4 hydrogen atoms individually.

In fact the one place hydrogen works well as a fuel (space, especially launching beyond Earth's orbit), it is being replaced by methane (the "connect 4 hydrogen atoms to one carbon atom" storage method) for all future US crewed rockets (not counting nearly entirely redesigned SLS models needing massive funding because they need a new stage).

Engineering Explained skewering a (from 6-12 years ago?   Not sure why he picked it now) BMW hydrogen car project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AouW9_jyZck
 
2022-11-28 11:32:49 AM  

ajgeek: I wonder how they're resolving the energy density problem. Hydrogen compresses, obviously, so that helps, but what kind of pressures are we talking here to get it to hydrocarbon levels?

I'm thinking that the vessels will need to have carbon fiber involved at least, and dear gods, the valve system...


It would probably be liquid, at a relatively low pressure. The tank would be double-walled with a vacuum and/or aerogel layer providing thermal insulation. Light but bulky, so the airplane might be more of a lifting-body configuration than a traditional tube+wings. There's a lot of engineering required to get there but that's a good reason to start working on it now.
 
2022-11-28 12:52:28 PM  
Does that include ones given to the Saudi soccer team for beating Argentina?

https://www.thedrive.com/news/saudi-arabia-world-cup-players-rewarded-with-rolls-royce-phantoms
 
2022-11-28 12:56:17 PM  
CSB:  Many years ago a few of my peeps and I took a trip to the desert (to "prospect" for Uranium ore, which was really just mine tailings)  with Bob Lazar. He told us that his truck was running on Hydrogen.  He said that the tank had a Group 1 metal in it and the H was stored as a hydride.

Obviously, the metal would add a lot of weight, but it allowed the tank to be low pressure.

I'm not sure I believe him.
 
2022-11-28 1:10:42 PM  

yet_another_wumpus: Marcus Aurelius: Here's one with a fuel tank that will keep it flying for nearly half an hour.
[hips.hearstapps.com image 850x550]

To be honest, that might not be as crazy as it looks.  Planes loaded up for the London/Sydney trip tend to take off with more than half their weight in jet fuel.  Of course, I can't imagine making a plane exclusively for trans-pacific *plus* trips, but for that tiny reason, hydrogen *might* make sense.  Can't see a plane being designed specifically for that route, even though it means you only need 10% or less of the plane to be fuel and can carry more passengers and cargo instead of fuel.

ajgeek: I wonder how they're resolving the energy density problem. Hydrogen compresses, obviously, so that helps, but what kind of pressures are we talking here to get it to hydrocarbon levels?

I'm thinking that the vessels will need to have carbon fiber involved at least, and dear gods, the valve system...

No.  Liquid hydrogen is as compressed as it will get.  I'm sure some deluded farker will suggest "storing it in a matrix".  Except said matrix will weigh a lot more than hydrogen itself.  Although you can compress hydrogen fairly well by linking it to a fairly light element, preferably with multiple hydrogen atoms at a time.  Carbon chains can hold two hydrogens together and 4 hydrogen atoms individually.

In fact the one place hydrogen works well as a fuel (space, especially launching beyond Earth's orbit), it is being replaced by methane (the "connect 4 hydrogen atoms to one carbon atom" storage method) for all future US crewed rockets (not counting nearly entirely redesigned SLS models needing massive funding because they need a new stage).

Engineering Explained skewering a (from 6-12 years ago?   Not sure why he picked it now) BMW hydrogen car project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AouW9_jyZck


Nice link, thanks for the rabbit hole today.
 
2022-11-28 2:08:54 PM  

ajgeek: I wonder how they're resolving the energy density problem. Hydrogen compresses, obviously, so that helps, but what kind of pressures are we talking here to get it to hydrocarbon levels?

I'm thinking that the vessels will need to have carbon fiber involved at least, and dear gods, the valve system...


They can combine the hydrogen with carbon atoms and form long molecular chains. This also has the side benefit of keeping the hydrogen from leaking through metals and making them brittle.
 
2022-11-28 2:29:51 PM  

Ivo Shandor: ajgeek: I wonder how they're resolving the energy density problem. Hydrogen compresses, obviously, so that helps, but what kind of pressures are we talking here to get it to hydrocarbon levels?

I'm thinking that the vessels will need to have carbon fiber involved at least, and dear gods, the valve system...

It would probably be liquid, at a relatively low pressure. The tank would be double-walled with a vacuum and/or aerogel layer providing thermal insulation. Light but bulky, so the airplane might be more of a lifting-body configuration than a traditional tube+wings. There's a lot of engineering required to get there but that's a good reason to start working on it now.


You are going to have to keep it pretty cold for it to remain a liquid.
 
2022-11-28 2:49:41 PM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Ivo Shandor: ajgeek: I wonder how they're resolving the energy density problem. Hydrogen compresses, obviously, so that helps, but what kind of pressures are we talking here to get it to hydrocarbon levels?

I'm thinking that the vessels will need to have carbon fiber involved at least, and dear gods, the valve system...

It would probably be liquid, at a relatively low pressure. The tank would be double-walled with a vacuum and/or aerogel layer providing thermal insulation. Light but bulky, so the airplane might be more of a lifting-body configuration than a traditional tube+wings. There's a lot of engineering required to get there but that's a good reason to start working on it now.

You are going to have to keep it pretty cold for it to remain a liquid.


Yes, about 20K if you don't want to deal with high pressures.
 
2022-11-28 11:06:57 PM  

Obscene_CNN: ajgeek: I wonder how they're resolving the energy density problem. Hydrogen compresses, obviously, so that helps, but what kind of pressures are we talking here to get it to hydrocarbon levels?

I'm thinking that the vessels will need to have carbon fiber involved at least, and dear gods, the valve system...

They can combine the hydrogen with carbon atoms and form long molecular chains. This also has the side benefit of keeping the hydrogen from leaking through metals and making them brittle.


Not too long of a carbon chain. Then you need to heat it up before you can pump it.
 
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