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(Some Guy)   Philosophers and scientists speculate about mind extension beyond brain, and body. Jedi council unavailable for comment   (thecollector.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Philosophy of mind, Thought, Andy Clark, Consciousness, David Chalmers, Extended Mind, first case centers, book Natural-Born Cyborgs  
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400 clicks; posted to STEM » on 26 Nov 2022 at 7:50 PM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



23 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-11-26 2:45:45 PM  
and some people just ponder the existence of commas.
 
2022-11-26 4:58:44 PM  
This is an idea so old even Karl Popper wrote about it.
 
2022-11-26 5:12:31 PM  
Philosophers and ploughmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentality
Closer to the heart
 
2022-11-26 5:19:28 PM  

HugeMistake: This is an idea so old even Karl Popper wrote about it.


John Popper's brother?
 
2022-11-26 6:11:23 PM  

cretinbob: and some people just ponder the existence of commas.


That comma isn't really there, it's its out of body experience
 
2022-11-26 8:20:44 PM  
So, no metacortex yet?
 
2022-11-26 8:22:56 PM  
That's a lot of degrees wasting time over whether a person's tools are a part of them. The answer is yes. And No.

We've been cyborgs since the first apeman picked up a rock or a stick. But mind isn't knowledge or it's container. Mind is how we use the tools at our disposal.
 
2022-11-26 8:43:49 PM  
There are plenty of books on this. Read this one a while back:

The Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain, by Annie Murphy Paul.

OK, this book is related and the her thesis is really cool:

The Memory Code: The Secrets of Stonehenge, Easter Island and Other Ancient Monuments

The book was really not that great, though. Still, the gist of it is really thought provoking. If you can hang through the tediously boring parts, the book is actually of some value.
 
2022-11-26 8:51:23 PM  
It's interesting how the inability of certain philosophers to square how minds appear to the subject and as part of an object keeps them publishing at the center of a healthy make-work project. Fortunately we live in a world in which even relativity of time is understood well enough to make working GPS satellites. Likewise some, Peter March at least, would argue that conceived of as a Turing Machine we are properly the read-write head in a greater machine (which he cunningly names the 'Touring Machine'). Which is to counter things like the Chinese Room or Philosophical Zombie arguments by remapping the notion of brains being computable to being parts of computers. Where brains can be Turing Machines they can extend beyond brains through mechanical means.

For me, I think the problem is with how we treat existence. We typically think of existence as stuff occupying space, and ideas about the stuff's arrangement as purely notional rather than a real part of the world. Shadows have an existence of a sorts, despite being an absence of light as well as our inability to perceive that as anything but a lack of information. Waves have an existence that can be strictly measured in time, although there is no particular substances to a wave like there is to water.

Whether the ontology of minds is restricted to brains, or more generously includes the same set of behaviours is probably important given the former essentially promises robot slaves and the latter would rightly prohibit it.
 
2022-11-26 9:37:31 PM  

ParallelUniverseParking: cretinbob: and some people just ponder the existence of commas.

That comma isn't really there, it's its out of body experience


Well, you know, sometimes they do work. It's a pause in speaking. People tend to forget that one's writing should follow one's speech pattern as well as other rules.
The comma in the headline is perfectly cromulent.
 
2022-11-26 10:29:45 PM  
*summoning my psychic powers*
 
2022-11-26 11:26:22 PM  

cretinbob: ParallelUniverseParking: cretinbob: and some people just ponder the existence of commas.

That comma isn't really there, it's its out of body experience

Well, you know, sometimes they do work. It's a pause in speaking. People tend to forget that one's writing should follow one's speech pattern as well as other rules.
The comma in the headline is perfectly cromulent.


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.comView Full Size

Go, on
 
2022-11-27 5:42:10 AM  
Of course you don't understand.  The Hive rejected you, and to make it stick you were afflicted with "language".
That's the joke!
 
2022-11-27 6:57:45 AM  
I think the mind can extend outside the body. I am in no way a crystal collecting hippie. Both my wife and I are educated high-tech city folk. But we have a link where we can guess what card the other is holding . We can do it one or two times, then we try too hard and lose the connection until later. Sometimes we are correct even if neither one of us has seen the card. I could do this with my partner at work as well.
I also have "sensed" things (like my car getting broken into) or that something bad is about to happen.
When I was younger I could guess lottery numbers...but only a couple minutes before they were picked. (Bummer....) and I knew when someone was calling me on the phone before it rang.
I am not religious in any way, and rely on logic and hard science, and I can't explain it. It just is the way it is, and I have accepted it as a weird universal quirk that works to my advantage occasionally.
 
2022-11-27 8:43:01 AM  

amigafin: I think the mind can extend outside the body. I am in no way a crystal collecting hippie. Both my wife and I are educated high-tech city folk. But we have a link where we can guess what card the other is holding . We can do it one or two times, then we try too hard and lose the connection until later. Sometimes we are correct even if neither one of us has seen the card. I could do this with my partner at work as well.
I also have "sensed" things (like my car getting broken into) or that something bad is about to happen.
When I was younger I could guess lottery numbers...but only a couple minutes before they were picked. (Bummer....) and I knew when someone was calling me on the phone before it rang.
I am not religious in any way, and rely on logic and hard science, and I can't explain it. It just is the way it is, and I have accepted it as a weird universal quirk that works to my advantage occasionally.


I would argue that's not mind though. It's your mind processing data.

You just have slightly better and mysterious tools to access data sooner others.

For a less unusual example: A person who can read has access to a wealth of data that can be unavailable, or at least more difficult to obtain, for someone who can't read. Their inability to access the data doesn't preclude the data's existence.

Mind is how you interpret and choose to apply the data you do have access to.
 
2022-11-27 10:06:03 AM  

Boudyro: amigafin: I think the mind can extend outside the body. I am in no way a crystal collecting hippie. Both my wife and I are educated high-tech city folk. But we have a link where we can guess what card the other is holding . We can do it one or two times, then we try too hard and lose the connection until later. Sometimes we are correct even if neither one of us has seen the card. I could do this with my partner at work as well.
I also have "sensed" things (like my car getting broken into) or that something bad is about to happen.
When I was younger I could guess lottery numbers...but only a couple minutes before they were picked. (Bummer....) and I knew when someone was calling me on the phone before it rang.
I am not religious in any way, and rely on logic and hard science, and I can't explain it. It just is the way it is, and I have accepted it as a weird universal quirk that works to my advantage occasionally.

I would argue that's not mind though. It's your mind processing data.

You just have slightly better and mysterious tools to access data sooner others.

For a less unusual example: A person who can read has access to a wealth of data that can be unavailable, or at least more difficult to obtain, for someone who can't read. Their inability to access the data doesn't preclude the data's existence.

Mind is how you interpret and choose to apply the data you do have access to.


I knew you were going to say that!

(only kidding...)
 
2022-11-27 10:28:49 AM  

ParallelUniverseParking: cretinbob: ParallelUniverseParking: cretinbob: and some people just ponder the existence of commas.

That comma isn't really there, it's its out of body experience

Well, you know, sometimes they do work. It's a pause in speaking. People tend to forget that one's writing should follow one's speech pattern as well as other rules.
The comma in the headline is perfectly cromulent.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 306x165]
Go, on


i.pinimg.comView Full Size



some people just say fark it altogether
 
2022-11-27 10:35:23 AM  

amigafin: I think the mind can extend outside the body. I am in no way a crystal collecting hippie. Both my wife and I are educated high-tech city folk. But we have a link where we can guess what card the other is holding . We can do it one or two times, then we try too hard and lose the connection until later. Sometimes we are correct even if neither one of us has seen the card. I could do this with my partner at work as well.
I also have "sensed" things (like my car getting broken into) or that something bad is about to happen.
When I was younger I could guess lottery numbers...but only a couple minutes before they were picked. (Bummer....) and I knew when someone was calling me on the phone before it rang.
I am not religious in any way, and rely on logic and hard science, and I can't explain it. It just is the way it is, and I have accepted it as a weird universal quirk that works to my advantage occasionally.


There's a group of people that think they're empaths, but the fact is that they've all experienced abuse that trained them to be acute observers/processors of human expression.

Likewise I've noticed that supposedly logical people often can't explain what logics are, or give a satisfactory explanation of the null hypothesis. I mean, we like to think we're all logical (which seems to be the new word for what people meant when they used to say 'sensible' or 'reasonable') because most of us intuit that logic is +good. My observation from a couple of years TA'ing logic & critical thinking courses at a 3rd rate university in Canada is that (a) people think of themselves as being logical much like they think they could handle themselves in a fight, and (b) most people's ability to learn these things is limited to rote repetition.

Which isn't a dig at you. People with technical jobs do show excellent reasoning skills when applied to the problems they're used to dealing with, and average when applied to problems they're not ("How hard can it be?"). Which is part of the problem of other minds and consciousness because it's not a set of problems that we have anything more than a folkloric handle on.
 
2022-11-27 11:21:29 AM  
Me to my son: Do you know how to get there?
Son: Yes, it's on my phone
 
2022-11-27 11:38:26 AM  

Nurglitch: amigafin: I think the mind can extend outside the body. I am in no way a crystal collecting hippie. Both my wife and I are educated high-tech city folk. But we have a link where we can guess what card the other is holding . We can do it one or two times, then we try too hard and lose the connection until later. Sometimes we are correct even if neither one of us has seen the card. I could do this with my partner at work as well.
I also have "sensed" things (like my car getting broken into) or that something bad is about to happen.
When I was younger I could guess lottery numbers...but only a couple minutes before they were picked. (Bummer....) and I knew when someone was calling me on the phone before it rang.
I am not religious in any way, and rely on logic and hard science, and I can't explain it. It just is the way it is, and I have accepted it as a weird universal quirk that works to my advantage occasionally.

There's a group of people that think they're empaths, but the fact is that they've all experienced abuse that trained them to be acute observers/processors of human expression.

Likewise I've noticed that supposedly logical people often can't explain what logics are, or give a satisfactory explanation of the null hypothesis. I mean, we like to think we're all logical (which seems to be the new word for what people meant when they used to say 'sensible' or 'reasonable') because most of us intuit that logic is +good. My observation from a couple of years TA'ing logic & critical thinking courses at a 3rd rate university in Canada is that (a) people think of themselves as being logical much like they think they could handle themselves in a fight, and (b) most people's ability to learn these things is limited to rote repetition.

Which isn't a dig at you. People with technical jobs do show excellent reasoning skills when applied to the problems they're used to dealing with, and average when applied to problems they're not ("How hard can it be?"). Which is part ...


I am definitely more "aware" than other people, I have been told many times. I can enter a room and instantly notice little details that others will never see.  The ability to predict events that have not yet occurred, in which NO data has been created, is the freaky part.

I just did the card thing with my wife, I thought of the five of clubs, and she guessed it right away. This isn't unusual. I'm sure there is some scientific reason for it, I just don't know what it is.
 
2022-11-27 1:05:23 PM  

amigafin: Nurglitch: amigafin: I think the mind can extend outside the body. I am in no way a crystal collecting hippie. Both my wife and I are educated high-tech city folk. But we have a link where we can guess what card the other is holding . We can do it one or two times, then we try too hard and lose the connection until later. Sometimes we are correct even if neither one of us has seen the card. I could do this with my partner at work as well.
I also have "sensed" things (like my car getting broken into) or that something bad is about to happen.
When I was younger I could guess lottery numbers...but only a couple minutes before they were picked. (Bummer....) and I knew when someone was calling me on the phone before it rang.
I am not religious in any way, and rely on logic and hard science, and I can't explain it. It just is the way it is, and I have accepted it as a weird universal quirk that works to my advantage occasionally.

There's a group of people that think they're empaths, but the fact is that they've all experienced abuse that trained them to be acute observers/processors of human expression.

Likewise I've noticed that supposedly logical people often can't explain what logics are, or give a satisfactory explanation of the null hypothesis. I mean, we like to think we're all logical (which seems to be the new word for what people meant when they used to say 'sensible' or 'reasonable') because most of us intuit that logic is +good. My observation from a couple of years TA'ing logic & critical thinking courses at a 3rd rate university in Canada is that (a) people think of themselves as being logical much like they think they could handle themselves in a fight, and (b) most people's ability to learn these things is limited to rote repetition.

Which isn't a dig at you. People with technical jobs do show excellent reasoning skills when applied to the problems they're used to dealing with, and average when applied to problems they're not ("How hard can it be?"). Which is part ...

I am definitely more "aware" than other people, I have been told many times. I can enter a room and instantly notice little details that others will never see.  The ability to predict events that have not yet occurred, in which NO data has been created, is the freaky part.

I just did the card thing with my wife, I thought of the five of clubs, and she guessed it right away. This isn't unusual. I'm sure there is some scientific reason for it, I just don't know what it is.


Confirmation bias, I'd say. Again, not to knock you but you're very good at noticing your own successes.
 
2022-11-27 4:11:33 PM  

cretinbob: ParallelUniverseParking: cretinbob: ParallelUniverseParking: cretinbob: and some people just ponder the existence of commas.

That comma isn't really there, it's its out of body experience

Well, you know, sometimes they do work. It's a pause in speaking. People tend to forget that one's writing should follow one's speech pattern as well as other rules.
The comma in the headline is perfectly cromulent.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 306x165]
Go, on

[i.pinimg.com image 736x995]


some people just say fark it altogether


That's cool. I like that. Thanks for sharing.
 
2022-11-27 4:32:16 PM  
"What if I change the definition of a word so I can ask if it means something else?"
 
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