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(Vail Daily)   And in a move that subby foresees will have absolutely no negative consequences, SCOCO lowers minimum passing bar score   (vaildaily.com) divider line
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2166 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Nov 2022 at 1:02 PM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-11-26 10:15:14 AM  
Bar scores, even bar exams, are not laws of nature. Prior to admission of women and people of color, the LSAT and Bar exam were not even a thing. As for actual performance, I've seen someone who took three tries to pass the bar outperform the hell out of someone who passed the bar on the first try. We have let the testing industry warp our thinking to the point that we are a deluded into believing that we need the testing industry. We do not and we could snatch away that industry's gravy train at any time.
 
2022-11-26 10:20:13 AM  
"Colorado's cut score of 276 was instituted in 1985, before Colorado joined the Uniform Bar Examination, and it is now the second-highest cut score among the 41 states that use the Uniform Bar Examination. Only Alaska uses a higher cut score (280), and only three other Uniform Bar Examination jurisdictions use cut scores above 270: Arizona (273), Idaho (272), and Pennsylvania (272)."
 
2022-11-26 10:26:51 AM  
There already appear to be no standards for lawyers of any kind, as evidenced by the legions of trump lackeys on retainer who have suffered absolutely no consequences for filing frivolous, factless lawsuit after frivolous, factless lawsuit. So why the hell would this even matter. Just get rid of it altogether and just admit that nothing matters anymore.
 
2022-11-26 11:04:55 AM  
So, comparing scores across states is meaningless unless they are all giving the same exam, right? Are they?

/not a lawyer.
 
2022-11-26 1:05:18 PM  
Gotta grease the skids for future GOP SCOTUS nominees.
 
2022-11-26 1:05:21 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-11-26 1:07:37 PM  
My mother always touted SCOCO as the best whiskey in the world, which tells you a lot about her refined palate and why I did not attend Thanksgiving dinner this year.
 
2022-11-26 1:12:29 PM  
Finally addressing that lawyer shortage.
 
2022-11-26 1:14:54 PM  

edmo: So, comparing scores across states is meaningless unless they are all giving the same exam, right? Are they?

/not a lawyer.


There's one exam. Then, many states make slight changes / additions to the exam. Some don't. Also, as far as I know, essay grading is done by each state separately, so like, maybe NY requires a lower score than CO, but if NY grades essays more harshly, it might be harder.
 
2022-11-26 1:15:28 PM  
Also, newsbreak is garbage.
 
2022-11-26 1:15:48 PM  
Cavemanlawyer.jpg
 
2022-11-26 1:16:05 PM  
Also also, the bar exam is pretty dumb and not a particularly good way to test legal competence. If your lawyer ever tries to do something without looking things up first, get a new lawyer.
 
2022-11-26 1:19:05 PM  

edmo: So, comparing scores across states is meaningless unless they are all giving the same exam, right? Are they?

/not a lawyer.


How could they? Each state has different laws and you want people who are trained in the specific ones for where they're going to practice. It's why you have to qualify separately in each state (AFAIK, unless some states have reciprocity agreements with some others that I'm unaware of).
 
2022-11-26 1:21:02 PM  

foo monkey: My mother always touted SCOCO as the best whiskey in the world, which tells you a lot about her refined palate and why I did not attend Thanksgiving dinner this year.


The best whiskey in the world is Pendleton 1910 Rye. One should drink it neat, like cognac.
 
2022-11-26 1:21:56 PM  

edmo: So, comparing scores across states is meaningless unless they are all giving the same exam, right? Are they?

/not a lawyer.


No. Some states have signed on to the UBE, but many haven't.

For more info: https://www.ncbex.org/exams/ube/

Passing the bar exam isn't what makes you a good lawyer. Law school itself doesn't teach you much about actual practice outside of required "experimental learning." Most law schools only require about 5-10% of your credit hours to be "experiential learning." You learn how to be a truly good lawyer on the job. Law school is there to make sure you have a foundation of black-letter law and that you don't write and research like an idiot.

The most useful law classes I took were Legal Writing, Advanced Research, Court Drafting, and Legislative Drafting. The second most-useful were Labor Law, Contract Law, Employment Law, and Privacy Law. Everything else was either mildly helpful (Constitution Law, Estate Law, Criminal Law, Torts) or mostly useful only to pass the bar (Secured Transactions, Family Law, etc.)

Actual practice was so tedious that I spent some time making a name for myself in niche privacy and employment law topics, published a handful of academic articles on those topics, and then went back into academia.
 
2022-11-26 1:24:12 PM  

edmo: So, comparing scores across states is meaningless unless they are all giving the same exam, right? Are they?

/not a lawyer.


Of course they are not giving the same exam.  Because states often have different laws.  Law schools are pretty much focused on the general theory of American law.  Bar exams are often about applying those theories in very narrow ways commiserate with an actual court case in the state the bar is being given in*.  When my fried was studying for his bar exam, the practice questions were not "Discuss the warm fuzzies of the Fifth Amendment", but "**insert amazingly specific set of circumstances here** and explain your argument to get X result from a judge with a titanium rod up his ass for these specific rulings in state court".  If Arizona and Florida have different takes on grandparental custody, they could not give the same question on a bar exam, even if the underlying facts were identical.  Now, some states are close enough with their laws that they allow you to transfer cleanly between them, but otherwise, you need to take a new exam in the new state.  My friend above has had to take three different bar exams because he moved to states that despise each other.


*  Think o fit like this:  Virtually every decent engineering school will teach the same basic curriculum.  But when you go to your job at GM or NASA, they aren't going to be asking you to work on the same types of projects.
 
2022-11-26 1:24:14 PM  
The sole stated purpose of the BAR exam was explicitly to prevent minorities (and later women) from entering the law profession.
It was developed for that express purpose when law schools, the former racial gatekeepers, were forced to allow minority students.
Since it no longer performs its one and only design purpose, why do we still have it at all?
 
2022-11-26 1:26:26 PM  

jjorsett: edmo: So, comparing scores across states is meaningless unless they are all giving the same exam, right? Are they?

/not a lawyer.

How could they? Each state has different laws and you want people who are trained in the specific ones for where they're going to practice. It's why you have to qualify separately in each state (AFAIK, unless some states have reciprocity agreements with some others that I'm unaware of).


Many states have reciprocity with 5 years of practice and good standing in the states you are (currently) barred in. The UBE has also made it much easier to get barred in multiple states right out of law school. A law student I was mentoring graduated in the last few years and was able to get barred easily in two states right away because of the UBE.

Most state laws are adopted on "model uniform" codes now. For instance, laws about business formation are often exactly the same across most states, because lobbying groups talk to several states at once. Same for insurance regulation, consumer protection, etc.
 
2022-11-26 1:34:21 PM  

Dryad: The sole stated purpose of the BAR exam was explicitly to prevent minorities (and later women) from entering the law profession.
It was developed for that express purpose when law schools, the former racial gatekeepers, were forced to allow minority students.
Since it no longer performs its one and only design purpose, why do we still have it at all?


I think pass rates of poc are still way lower than whites. It's definitely still effective in its original purpose, and much to the detriment of the profession.

Our bar association recently hosted an edi cle with a panel of white men and women. /sigh
 
2022-11-26 1:40:23 PM  
Thank goodness, because we don't have nearly enough lawyers in Colorado. Just the other day, I was thinking, "You know what this place needs? More lawyers."
 
2022-11-26 1:46:50 PM  

The Dog Ate My Homework: Thank goodness, because we don't have nearly enough lawyers in Colorado. Just the other day, I was thinking, "You know what this place needs? More lawyers."


And they need to be worse lawyers than the ones you have now.
 
2022-11-26 1:50:19 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-11-26 2:33:00 PM  
RIP Coco

Fark user imageView Full Size


RIP
 
2022-11-26 2:47:33 PM  

Aquapope: The Dog Ate My Homework: Thank goodness, because we don't have nearly enough lawyers in Colorado. Just the other day, I was thinking, "You know what this place needs? More lawyers."

And they need to be worse lawyers than the ones you have now.


Why would POC make worse lawyers than white people? Interested to hear your take on that.
 
2022-11-26 2:59:59 PM  
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I'm sure she will pass this time,
 
2022-11-26 3:20:52 PM  
This?  This is the entirety of the linked article?  Twitter posts linking to real articles with minimal commentary are bad enough, partial articles linking to full articles are only slightly better, but this is just pathetic.  What the fark?  How did this get greened?

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-11-26 3:25:06 PM  

Professoressa: edmo: So, comparing scores across states is meaningless unless they are all giving the same exam, right? Are they?

/not a lawyer.

No. Some states have signed on to the UBE, but many haven't.

For more info: https://www.ncbex.org/exams/ube/

Passing the bar exam isn't what makes you a good lawyer. Law school itself doesn't teach you much about actual practice outside of required "experimental learning." Most law schools only require about 5-10% of your credit hours to be "experiential learning." You learn how to be a truly good lawyer on the job. Law school is there to make sure you have a foundation of black-letter law and that you don't write and research like an idiot.

The most useful law classes I took were Legal Writing, Advanced Research, Court Drafting, and Legislative Drafting. The second most-useful were Labor Law, Contract Law, Employment Law, and Privacy Law. Everything else was either mildly helpful (Constitution Law, Estate Law, Criminal Law, Torts) or mostly useful only to pass the bar (Secured Transactions, Family Law, etc.)

Actual practice was so tedious that I spent some time making a name for myself in niche privacy and employment law topics, published a handful of academic articles on those topics, and then went back into academia.


The instructor for my Legal Writing class required that everyone pass his basic English grammar exam on the first day of class or hire a tutor.  Sadly, many failed.  Years later I saw why he did it.
 
2022-11-26 3:38:06 PM  

Dryad: Aquapope: The Dog Ate My Homework: Thank goodness, because we don't have nearly enough lawyers in Colorado. Just the other day, I was thinking, "You know what this place needs? More lawyers."

And they need to be worse lawyers than the ones you have now.

Why would POC make worse lawyers than white people? Interested to hear your take on that.


Generally, people with lower BAR admission test scores would be considered worse lawyers than those with higher scores.  Where did you get the POC reference?
 
2022-11-26 3:46:06 PM  

bzdrummer: [Fark user image 425x283]I'm sure she will pass this time,


I think Kim is studying for the California First Year Law Student Examination, or "Baby Bar", a one day festival of 4 essays on Crimes, Torts, and Contracts and a multiple choice exam that is offered twice a year for students at schools that aren't accredited by the ABA, aren't otherwise tolerated by the bars of most other states, and are begrudgingly tolerated by the State of California.

California does not use the Uniform Bar Examination this article talks about as it continues to hone its infamous examination content and methods year after year.  Louisiana does not use the UBE, either, interestingly, and is the state with a truly unique bar exam as I understand it.
 
2022-11-26 3:53:08 PM  

sgleason818: "Colorado's cut score of 276 was instituted in 1985, before Colorado joined the Uniform Bar Examination, and it is now the second-highest cut score among the 41 states that use the Uniform Bar Examination. Only Alaska uses a higher cut score (280), and only three other Uniform Bar Examination jurisdictions use cut scores above 270: Arizona (273), Idaho (272), and Pennsylvania (272)."


Huh. I always heard New York, cali and Delaware were the hardest. Knew some law talking people in PA who described it thusly.
 
2022-11-26 3:53:16 PM  

Aquapope: Dryad: Aquapope: The Dog Ate My Homework: Thank goodness, because we don't have nearly enough lawyers in Colorado. Just the other day, I was thinking, "You know what this place needs? More lawyers."

And they need to be worse lawyers than the ones you have now.

Why would POC make worse lawyers than white people? Interested to hear your take on that.

Generally, people with lower BAR admission test scores would be considered worse lawyers than those with higher scores.  Where did you get the POC reference?


Because the whole intent of the test was originally designed to exclude us. Even today the racial outcomes are extremely disparate regardless of academic achievement.
Its is very easy to unintentionally weight tests toward cultural biases and experiences and not objective levels of education. Doubly so with done on purpose. Triply so with essay questions.
The test was designed to gatekeep, not ensure competence. Intentional or not, it still does that.
 
2022-11-26 3:56:01 PM  

guinsu: sgleason818: "Colorado's cut score of 276 was instituted in 1985, before Colorado joined the Uniform Bar Examination, and it is now the second-highest cut score among the 41 states that use the Uniform Bar Examination. Only Alaska uses a higher cut score (280), and only three other Uniform Bar Examination jurisdictions use cut scores above 270: Arizona (273), Idaho (272), and Pennsylvania (272)."

Huh. I always heard New York, cali and Delaware were the hardest. Knew some law talking people in PA who described it thusly.


As mentioned upthread, the test has large subjective/arbitrary elements, so depending on strictness of scrutiny or biases the test could be much harder even if the objective metric is lower.  
Objective metrics only matter when judging objective results.
 
2022-11-26 4:00:44 PM  
So literacy no longer a requirement?
 
2022-11-26 4:07:43 PM  
So, lemme make sure I understand this:

The very group complaining about schools adjusting scores so lower performing students can still graduate.. are lowering the passing score to become lawyers?

I find it.. humorous.
 
2022-11-26 4:14:48 PM  
There aren't enough right-wing judges in Colorado?
 
2022-11-26 4:21:11 PM  

Aquapope: Dryad: Aquapope: The Dog Ate My Homework: Thank goodness, because we don't have nearly enough lawyers in Colorado. Just the other day, I was thinking, "You know what this place needs? More lawyers."

And they need to be worse lawyers than the ones you have now.

Why would POC make worse lawyers than white people? Interested to hear your take on that.

Generally, people with lower BAR admission test scores would be considered worse lawyers than those with higher scores.  Where did you get the POC reference?


An excerpt for reference:
"The AccessLex report reveals that even after controlling for all of these factors (household size, household income, employment, use of a commercial prep course, LSAT score, law school selectivity), candidates of color were significantly more likely to fail the bar exam than White candidates.
This effect occurred for every racial group studied: Black, Latinx, and Asian/Pacific Islander candidates were all significantly more likely than White candidates to fail, even when they enjoyed similar LSAT scores, financial resources, and other supports
."
Fark user imageView Full Size

So there are a couple of choices - claim black people are just naturally stupid, or acknowledge the test is not one of competence.
 
2022-11-26 4:24:20 PM  
Ok, how many people posting understand that "bar" refers to the actual bar divider in old-time courtrooms, and isn't an acronym?
 
2022-11-26 5:01:56 PM  
SCOCO lowers minimum passing bar score

... and COSCO lowers the price of big tubs of hummus
 
2022-11-26 5:44:02 PM  
As an attorney, passing the bar exam is as easy as memorizing all sorts of theories that will barely matter for most attorneys in their professional lives. You don't need to be bright etc., just good at taking tests and having a clean nose when interviewed by who what ever your local who rubber stamps you (in some states).

I am bared in two states but unless the questions were narrowed to my little part of the legal world, no way would I pass today and I am too old to devote time to study again.
 
2022-11-26 5:57:27 PM  

jjorsett: edmo: So, comparing scores across states is meaningless unless they are all giving the same exam, right? Are they?

/not a lawyer.

How could they? Each state has different laws and you want people who are trained in the specific ones for where they're going to practice. It's why you have to qualify separately in each state (AFAIK, unless some states have reciprocity agreements with some others that I'm unaware of).


Bar exams don't test state law. There are some weird states out there, like NY has a separate test for NY law. But generally, bar exams don't test state law.
 
2022-11-26 6:38:20 PM  

damageddude: As an attorney, passing the bar exam is as easy as memorizing all sorts of theories that will barely matter for most attorneys in their professional lives. You don't need to be bright etc., just good at taking tests and having a clean nose when interviewed by who what ever your local who rubber stamps you (in some states).



What a 'clean nose' might look like
media-amazon.comView Full Size
 
2022-11-26 10:38:32 PM  
Bar frowns on your shenanigans

external-content.duckduckgo.comView Full Size
 
2022-11-27 1:14:54 AM  

Breaker Moran: bzdrummer: [Fark user image 425x283]I'm sure she will pass this time,

I think Kim is studying for the California First Year Law Student Examination, or "Baby Bar", a one day festival of 4 essays on Crimes, Torts, and Contracts and a multiple choice exam that is offered twice a year for students at schools that aren't accredited by the ABA, aren't otherwise tolerated by the bars of most other states, and are begrudgingly tolerated by the State of California.

California does not use the Uniform Bar Examination this article talks about as it continues to hone its infamous examination content and methods year after year.  Louisiana does not use the UBE, either, interestingly, and is the state with a truly unique bar exam as I understand it.


Every state except Louisiana is rooted in English common law. Louisiana is rooted in the French legal system (not sure what that means in practice). Like Louisiana has parishes not counties like the other states do.
 
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