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(Salon)   John Oliver reminds Americans the British monarchy is toxic   (salon.com) divider line
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2396 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 19 Nov 2022 at 5:35 AM (17 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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Beerguy [TotalFark]
2022-11-19 1:55:47 AM  
The Monarchy: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)
Youtube KWterDbJKjY


Here is the entire segment if you prefer to not visit the 3rd party site.

/Not Subby
 
Jesus McSordid [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-11-19 4:29:34 AM  
Good for him. It had to be said. Lap dogs are OK, I guess, but not if they're human. I prefer people with a bit of bite to them.
 
Bungles
2022-11-19 5:43:16 AM  
Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.
 
chucknasty [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2022-11-19 5:46:04 AM  
did I just get traveled in time back six days?
 
Kris_Romm
2022-11-19 6:59:24 AM  

Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.


Yeah, but there's a lot of people who are between the two poles.  Who "loved the Queen" but had no strong feelings on the Monarchy otherwise.
 
Norfolking Chance
2022-11-19 7:14:41 AM  

Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.


I agree.

Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.
 
RoyFokker'sGhost
2022-11-19 7:47:10 AM  
It's really no different than the long overdue conversation that Americans need to have about the Founding Fathers.

Yes. Thomas Jefferson gave the world 'All Men Are Created Equal' and other brilliant, essential core philosophies and procedures of modern democracy. He did good on that and deserves the praise.

He also was notoriously unfaithful to his wife, an owner of a massive number of slaves (as in among the top 1% of slave owners), and, oh yeah...raped many of those female slaves (not just Sally Hemmings). He failed massively as a human being on that point and deserves to be called out for it.

Americans need to be able to praise the good of our history and historical figures, while condemning the absolutely evil shiat our government has done. Only praising America and ignoring the bad is just the flip side of only condemning America and ignoring the good; it's both sides of flawed logic.
 
Xythero [TotalFark]
2022-11-19 7:49:55 AM  
I like John Oliver but his newer segments seem less jokey and more like he's just yelling at me. I think he's letting the news get to him and his show is getting less fun because of it.
 
TheMysteriousStranger
2022-11-19 8:11:47 AM  

Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.


That is completely wrong.

Citation: The John Oliver piece in question, ironically.
 
Unsung_Hero
2022-11-19 8:31:00 AM  
The modern monarchy is a live action soap opera for bored peasants who want to pretend the world is a magical place where there are people who are inherently better than they are.

Why you'd want to believe this, or reward people for having ancestors who oppressed yours, I don't understand.
 
gregario
2022-11-19 8:39:31 AM  
I know it's extremely fictionalized, but when mrs. gregario and I watch The Crown, all we can think is what is the purpose of a monarchy today. It's stupid.
 
gregario
2022-11-19 8:41:25 AM  

lurkey: Norfolking Chance: Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.

I agree.

Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.

Other than just not having it and stripping it of it's stolen wealth?


Well yeah. The alternative is just to get rid of it.
 
wouldestous
2022-11-19 9:02:19 AM  

Xythero: I like John Oliver but his newer segments seem less jokey and more like he's just yelling at me. I think he's letting the news get to him and his show is getting less fun because of it.


well, yeah
*gestures broadly at everything*
 
educated [TotalFark]
2022-11-19 9:32:48 AM  

Xythero: I like John Oliver but his newer segments seem less jokey and more like he's just yelling at me. I think he's letting the news get to him and his show is getting less fun because of it.


Or maybe the world is worth yelling about.
 
dionysusaur [TotalFark]
2022-11-19 9:36:43 AM  
It's not just the Royals. There's an army of the titled who want to hang on to their power, wealth & literal privilege.
Chuckles should be the last king.
 
guinsu
2022-11-19 9:38:40 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.

That is completely wrong.

Citation: The John Oliver piece in question, ironically.


Also see: this site when the Queen died.
 
Norfolking Chance
2022-11-19 9:40:14 AM  

lurkey: Norfolking Chance: Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.

I agree.

Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.

Other than just not having it and stripping it of it's stolen wealth?


So do we just hand the power other the PM or do we go for a different option?

If it is a president how do we elect them? Is it a vote from the two houses of parliament or a direct vote Weeners the post from the general public? Or maybe the vote should be alternative voting.

Then should the president be mostly ceremonial like the Irish president or actually have some executive power? If they have executive power how much should they have?


What you are suggesting is ripping off a leaking roof without any plan in place to replace it.
.
 
Mangoose [TotalFark]
2022-11-19 9:53:07 AM  

Norfolking Chance: So do we just hand the power other the PM or do we go for a different option?

If it is a president how do we elect them? Is it a vote from the two houses of parliament or a direct vote Weeners the post from the general public? Or maybe the vote should be alternative voting.

Then should the president be mostly ceremonial like the Irish president or actually have some executive power? If they have executive power how much should they have?


What you are suggesting is ripping off a leaking roof without any plan in place to replace it.


Better to point out the problems instead of doing anything about it. Instead, let's just let one of the cornerstones of white supremacy sit content in the warm embrace of divine mandate.
 
trialpha
2022-11-19 9:54:31 AM  

Norfolking Chance: What you are suggesting is ripping off a leaking roof without any plan in place to replace it.


All of the people who go "just get rid of the monarchy!" don't seem to realize that it is a massive, massive pain in the ass to do so. To the point where it's just easier to let it continue. Plus, there's no guarantee you'd end up with something better.
 
Tyrone Slothrop
2022-11-19 9:58:01 AM  

trialpha: Norfolking Chance: What you are suggesting is ripping off a leaking roof without any plan in place to replace it.

All of the people who go "just get rid of the monarchy!" don't seem to realize that it is a massive, massive pain in the ass to do so. To the point where it's just easier to let it continue. Plus, there's no guarantee you'd end up with something better.


Simply having it not exist is inherently better.
 
Mangoose [TotalFark]
2022-11-19 10:01:33 AM  

trialpha: Norfolking Chance: What you are suggesting is ripping off a leaking roof without any plan in place to replace it.

All of the people who go "just get rid of the monarchy!" don't seem to realize that it is a massive, massive pain in the ass to do so. To the point where it's just easier to let it continue. Plus, there's no guarantee you'd end up with something better.


"Change? Ugh. That's so much work! And what if it we get it wrong!?! We can never make another change again!!!"
 
trialpha
2022-11-19 10:04:48 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: trialpha: Norfolking Chance: What you are suggesting is ripping off a leaking roof without any plan in place to replace it.

All of the people who go "just get rid of the monarchy!" don't seem to realize that it is a massive, massive pain in the ass to do so. To the point where it's just easier to let it continue. Plus, there's no guarantee you'd end up with something better.

Simply having it not exist is inherently better.


That reminds me: there is one benefit to the British: the monarchy seems to invoke this utter visceral reaction in Americans that's amusing to watch.

The British aren't exactly going to go to the extreme effort of reworking their entire government just because some Americans really really hate the idea of a monarch.
 
SirDigbyChickenCaesar
2022-11-19 10:07:31 AM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: It's really no different than the long overdue conversation that Americans need to have about the Founding Fathers.

Yes. Thomas Jefferson gave the world 'All Men Are Created Equal' and other brilliant, essential core philosophies and procedures of modern democracy. He did good on that and deserves the praise.

He also was notoriously unfaithful to his wife, an owner of a massive number of slaves (as in among the top 1% of slave owners), and, oh yeah...raped many of those female slaves (not just Sally Hemmings). He failed massively as a human being on that point and deserves to be called out for it.

Americans need to be able to praise the good of our history and historical figures, while condemning the absolutely evil shiat our government has done. Only praising America and ignoring the bad is just the flip side of only condemning America and ignoring the good; it's both sides of flawed logic.


People also need to stop retroactively judging people from the past based on the morals shared today.  Societies evolve.
 
portnoyd
2022-11-19 10:10:22 AM  

Xythero: I like John Oliver but his newer segments seem less jokey and more like he's just yelling at me. I think he's letting the news get to him and his show is getting less fun because of it.


It's why I stopped watching his show altogether. It became too patronizing and "talk down-y".
 
Rent Party
2022-11-19 10:19:24 AM  

Norfolking Chance: Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.


The French came up with a decent alternative.   The Irish came up with a decent alternative and it smells like they may come up with even more.  America came up with a better alternative, but didn't take care of their implementation,

Monarchy, the very notion of nobility in general, is an absurdity.   If someone tells you they were chosen personally by God to rule you, they should be locked up for their own protection.
 
Unsung_Hero
2022-11-19 10:36:38 AM  

Rent Party: If someone tells you they were chosen personally by God to rule you, they should be locked up for their own your protection


Occasionally you get a nutbar, but realistically it's always a calculated lie to encourage you to obey with less effort on their part.

The 'rule by brute force' and the 'rule by superstition' classes have been mostly cooperating in a symbiotic relationship for as long as both have been significantly organized.   The priest tells you it's god's will that you submit to the local lord, the local lord has thugs to make sure you tithe to the priest.  They're both locked in a power struggle to gain supremacy over the population, but will generally cooperate enough to make sure they're the only players in the game.
 
Obituary Birthday
2022-11-19 10:37:25 AM  
Doesn't the alternative already exist as the parliment? Isn't the monarchy just cosplay at this point?
 
trialpha
2022-11-19 10:39:53 AM  

Rent Party: Norfolking Chance: Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.

The French came up with a decent alternative.   The Irish came up with a decent alternative and it smells like they may come up with even more.  America came up with a better alternative, but didn't take care of their implementation,

Monarchy, the very notion of nobility in general, is an absurdity.   If someone tells you they were chosen personally by God to rule you, they should be locked up for their own protection.


Parliamentary monarchy is basically just a regular democracy with some vestigial historical aspects. The monarch is just a figurehead. They don't actually rule over their subjects anymore that a president rules over their citizens.

Having trouble with the idea of a king/queen? Just replace any usage of the term with "government". ie, "for the Queen!" with "for the British government!".
 
Rent Party
2022-11-19 10:43:35 AM  

Unsung_Hero: Rent Party: If someone tells you they were chosen personally by God to rule you, they should be locked up for their own your protection

Occasionally you get a nutbar, but realistically it's always a calculated lie to encourage you to obey with less effort on their part.

The 'rule by brute force' and the 'rule by superstition' classes have been mostly cooperating in a symbiotic relationship for as long as both have been significantly organized.   The priest tells you it's god's will that you submit to the local lord, the local lord has thugs to make sure you tithe to the priest.  They're both locked in a power struggle to gain supremacy over the population, but will generally cooperate enough to make sure they're the only players in the game.


I will state right here, for the record, before God and all His saints.

The only "Right of Kings" is conquest.  It's not just the last argument of Kings.  It is the only argument of Kings.


upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size
 
Rent Party
2022-11-19 10:54:52 AM  

trialpha: Rent Party: Norfolking Chance: Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.

The French came up with a decent alternative.   The Irish came up with a decent alternative and it smells like they may come up with even more.  America came up with a better alternative, but didn't take care of their implementation,

Monarchy, the very notion of nobility in general, is an absurdity.   If someone tells you they were chosen personally by God to rule you, they should be locked up for their own protection.

Parliamentary monarchy is basically just a regular democracy with some vestigial historical aspects. The monarch is just a figurehead. They don't actually rule over their subjects anymore that a president rules over their citizens.

Having trouble with the idea of a king/queen? Just replace any usage of the term with "government". ie, "for the Queen!" with "for the British government!".


The new Prime Minister's first act is to seek The Monarch's permission to form a new government, which is known as "His Majesty's Government."

In any case, you do not entertain a clearly delusional person, no matter how well dressed.   Those who think God picked them for some stated purpose involving other people clearly are.  The English should rightfully call their government "The Lunatic We Pay to Entertain Us' Government."

I'm preferential to the French solution, myself.
 
trialpha
2022-11-19 11:02:55 AM  

Rent Party: The new Prime Minister's first act is to seek The Monarch's permission to form a new government, which is known as "His Majesty's Government."

In any case, you do not entertain a clearly delusional person, no matter how well dressed. Those who think God picked them for some stated purpose involving other people clearly are. The English should rightfully call their government "The Lunatic We Pay to Entertain Us' Government."

I'm preferential to the French solution, myself.


This is what I mean about American's reactions to the monarchy being amusing. All of that is just paper/procedural. Hell, it's basically the opposite: the Prime Minister is "asking" permission in the same way a police officer "asks" you to step out of the car.
 
Rent Party
2022-11-19 11:10:08 AM  

trialpha: Rent Party: The new Prime Minister's first act is to seek The Monarch's permission to form a new government, which is known as "His Majesty's Government."

In any case, you do not entertain a clearly delusional person, no matter how well dressed. Those who think God picked them for some stated purpose involving other people clearly are. The English should rightfully call their government "The Lunatic We Pay to Entertain Us' Government."

I'm preferential to the French solution, myself.

This is what I mean about American's reactions to the monarchy being amusing. All of that is just paper/procedural. Hell, it's basically the opposite: the Prime Minister is "asking" permission in the same way a police officer "asks" you to step out of the car.


The Monarch has the power to refuse the government, and to dissolve it.  That's not paper/procedural.  That is actual political power in the hands of a lunatic for no reason than his lunatic ancestors had it.
 
STRYPERSWINE
2022-11-19 11:10:19 AM  
I've been studying the monarchy going back to Alfred the Great as a hobby for a while.  I think it's fascinating.  I hope we don't see the end of this ancient institution in my lifetime because of American misconception about what it is.

We seem to think if it as a ruling class.  They don't actually rule anything and in fact, are kept in check by being very much aware that Parliament rules and this can all be taken away.  They're figureheads who generate more income than they spend and raise fortunes for charities. They provide pageantry while Parliament does the actual governing.

We look at the 1,200 year old institution through 200 year old eyes (even though parts of our country are 500 years old.  Visiting Santa Fe was an eye-opener).
 
oldfarthenry [TotalFark]
2022-11-19 11:16:22 AM  
Britain is physically stuck in its history - to the point where you can't throw a scone into a UK crowd without it bonking one historian in the head then having it ricochet into the head of another historian.
Yes, the BBC has done a wonderful job of hiring pretty women for their documentary programs but the country as a whole needs to STFU about monarchs, empires, colonialism (unless it's admitting to the genocides it begat) , etc and concentrate on the "now" & the future.

The boat is sinking - stop rearranging the deck-chairs!
 
Lipspinach
2022-11-19 11:16:24 AM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: RoyFokker'sGhost: It's really no different than the long overdue conversation that Americans need to have about the Founding Fathers.

Yes. Thomas Jefferson gave the world 'All Men Are Created Equal' and other brilliant, essential core philosophies and procedures of modern democracy. He did good on that and deserves the praise.

He also was notoriously unfaithful to his wife, an owner of a massive number of slaves (as in among the top 1% of slave owners), and, oh yeah...raped many of those female slaves (not just Sally Hemmings). He failed massively as a human being on that point and deserves to be called out for it.

Americans need to be able to praise the good of our history and historical figures, while condemning the absolutely evil shiat our government has done. Only praising America and ignoring the bad is just the flip side of only condemning America and ignoring the good; it's both sides of flawed logic.

People also need to stop retroactively judging people from the past based on the morals shared today.  Societies evolve.


Heritage not hate, right?
GFY.
 
skinink [OhFark]
2022-11-19 11:18:49 AM  

Xythero: I like John Oliver but his newer segments seem less jokey and more like he's just yelling at me. I think he's letting the news get to him and his show is getting less fun because of it.


You made me think of David Letterman. His NBC years were pretty fantastic and better than Johnny Carson's show by a long shot.

Then Letterman moved to CBS, and after some years his show was stale and there just wasn't worth catching.
 
trialpha
2022-11-19 11:28:41 AM  

Rent Party: The Monarch has the power to refuse the government, and to dissolve it. That's not paper/procedural. That is actual political power in the hands of a lunatic for no reason than his lunatic ancestors had it.


Just as much as you have the power to refuse the policeman's request to exit the car.

If the monarch ever tried that, they would very quickly have that power removed along with the rest of the monarchy. It is paper power only.
 
wouldestous
2022-11-19 11:39:37 AM  

Rent Party: ...
Monarchy, the very notion of nobility in general, is an absurdity.   If someone tells you they were chosen personally by God to rule you, they should be locked up for their own protection.


'if I went 'round saying I was an emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away'
 
Dear Jerk
2022-11-19 11:42:41 AM  
Monarchy may be an outdated idea, but it's culturally ingrained. If you yank it away without having provided an alternative, god knows what sort of mongoloid identity would grow. Great Britain might try the North American approach. Have someone come in and kill everyone currently living in Great Britain, then repopulate it with democracy-minded folks.
 
ukexpat
2022-11-19 11:45:21 AM  

Norfolking Chance: Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.

I agree.

Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.


A presidential system like they have in Ireland would work just fine. Replace the monarch head of state with a president head of state.
 
BunkyBrewman [TotalFark]
2022-11-19 11:45:30 AM  
There's a podcast called Dark Dynasties that just started.  It's going to cover the royals also but begins with the Hammer family.  https://www.audacy.com/podcast/dark-dynasties-1aafd/episodes
 
Kris_Romm
2022-11-19 11:57:29 AM  

Norfolking Chance: Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.

I agree.

Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.


Alternative?

Just... not having it.

The buildings are the tourist draw, not the royal people no tourist sees.
 
trialpha
2022-11-19 12:12:25 PM  

Kris_Romm: Norfolking Chance: Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.

I agree.

Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.

Alternative?

Just... not having it.

The buildings are the tourist draw, not the royal people no tourist sees.


That involves a huge amount of work to change the entire governmental system, laws, etc. Given that the current system is working basically just as well as the other systems for the British, there's no real impetus for change.
 
Rent Party
2022-11-19 12:13:48 PM  

trialpha: Rent Party: The Monarch has the power to refuse the government, and to dissolve it. That's not paper/procedural. That is actual political power in the hands of a lunatic for no reason than his lunatic ancestors had it.

Just as much as you have the power to refuse the policeman's request to exit the car.

If the monarch ever tried that, they would very quickly have that power removed along with the rest of the monarchy. It is paper power only.


That is the power of a King.  It is his by Divine Right.  Parliament has no authority to remove anything from the Crown without Crown approval.

/ Absurdity
 
Rent Party
2022-11-19 12:16:44 PM  

ukexpat: Norfolking Chance: Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.

I agree.

Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.

A presidential system like they have in Ireland would work just fine. Replace the monarch head of state with a president head of state.


Or just merge the head of state with the head of government into one office, American style.

The problem is a bi-cameral congress.  The Senate serves no purpose other than to keep the Vice President busy and obstruct progress.
 
Unsung_Hero
2022-11-19 12:20:18 PM  

Rent Party: The problem is a bi-cameral congress. The Senate serves no purpose other than to keep the Vice President busy and obstruct progress.


I've been propagandised into the "house of sober second thought" belief.

The issue with the US isn't that the senate exists as a check on the house, it's that there is zero effort to at least abstract senators from partisan politics.  It's the same problem the American judiciary has - you're not putting qualified people in place, you're putting partisans in place.  Deliberately and enthusiastically.
 
ukexpat
2022-11-19 12:22:04 PM  

Rent Party: ukexpat: Norfolking Chance: Bungles: Royalists in the UK are quite rare if you hang around "normal" circles. Probably like the hardcore MAGA in the US: sure, you know they're out there, but somewhere over the hills.

I agree.

Most agree that the monarchy is an outdated idea. No one has put out there a decent alternative.

A presidential system like they have in Ireland would work just fine. Replace the monarch head of state with a president head of state.

Or just merge the head of state with the head of government into one office, American style.

The problem is a bi-cameral congress.  The Senate serves no purpose other than to keep the Vice President busy and obstruct progress.


Er no, definitely not.
 
Rent Party
2022-11-19 12:22:58 PM  

wouldestous: Rent Party: ...
Monarchy, the very notion of nobility in general, is an absurdity.   If someone tells you they were chosen personally by God to rule you, they should be locked up for their own protection.

'if I went 'round saying I was an emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away'


Exactly.  There are many reasons we love that scene, (the whole movie in general, really), and high among them is the absolute truth of it.  But for some reason, we look at people born into a millennia old  grift and say "Oh yeah, God picked that guy I guess!"    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Norfolking Chance
2022-11-19 12:31:00 PM  

Rent Party: trialpha: Rent Party: The Monarch has the power to refuse the government, and to dissolve it. That's not paper/procedural. That is actual political power in the hands of a lunatic for no reason than his lunatic ancestors had it.

Just as much as you have the power to refuse the policeman's request to exit the car.

If the monarch ever tried that, they would very quickly have that power removed along with the rest of the monarchy. It is paper power only.

That is the power of a King.  It is his by Divine Right.  Parliament has no authority to remove anything from the Crown without Crown approval.

/ Absurdity


Nope.

Under English Common Law the King/Queen does not have a divine right to rule. Please see Charles I vs The People of England 1649. It settled in law rather emphatically that the King/Queen is answerable to the people of England.
 
Norfolking Chance
2022-11-19 12:33:52 PM  

Mangoose: trialpha: Norfolking Chance: What you are suggesting is ripping off a leaking roof without any plan in place to replace it.

All of the people who go "just get rid of the monarchy!" don't seem to realize that it is a massive, massive pain in the ass to do so. To the point where it's just easier to let it continue. Plus, there's no guarantee you'd end up with something better.

"Change? Ugh. That's so much work! And what if it we get it wrong!?! We can never make another change again!!!"


No, change has to be better than what we had. Historically just dumping an entire governmental system without a solid plan to change it results in a very time. Deciding what to do with the governmental system after getting rid of the monarch would be an idea so stupid it would make Brexit seem like a good idea.
 
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