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(MSN)   Aaron Judge wins AL MVP, Paul Goldschmidt takes NL prize   (msn.com) divider line
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    More: Interesting, New York Yankees, St. Louis Cardinals, Major League Baseball, Barry Bonds, Atlanta Braves, Alex Rodriguez, Cleveland Indians, National League  
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176 clicks; posted to Sports » on 18 Nov 2022 at 5:18 AM (18 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
Mangoose [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 7:09:42 AM  
Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.
 
Dafatone [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 7:41:02 AM  

Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.


Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.
 
The Bestest
2022-11-18 8:19:40 AM  

Dafatone: And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together.


and that's all it comes down to (though apparently two of the voters disagreed)
 
KingKauff
2022-11-18 8:28:21 AM  

Dafatone: Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.

Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.


I hate to say it, but, This.
I've had no problems with the winners this year for the awards. My only issue is that Kyle Wright, who won more games than any other pitcher and lights out most games, came in 10th for Cy Young. I guess wins don't mean anything anymore.
 
Last Man on Earth
2022-11-18 8:33:00 AM  

Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.


They can't give it to Ohtani purely on the basis that he both hits and pitches.  If MLB is going to force the DH on us, they can't then turn around and give an automatic MVP to the one guy who still doesn't need a DH.  If they were going to consider a pitcher who hits to be some magical thing, they need to normalize pitchers hiatting again, or else they might as well just preemptively hand Ohtani MVP for every year of his career now.

/Just glad Harris got NL RoY
 
The Bestest
2022-11-18 8:50:51 AM  

Last Man on Earth: If they were going to consider a pitcher who hits to be some magical thing, they need to normalize pitchers hiatting again, or else they might as well just preemptively hand Ohtani MVP for every year of his career now.


here's the thing.. Ohtani couldn't do what he did without the DH. There's a reason he played in the Pacific League (Japan's AL) and signed with the Angels (as opposed to the Dodgers or Padres). Without the DH, Ohtani gets -maybe- 7 ABs -per week-, unless you planned on sticking him in the outfield somewhere on "off days", which both exposes him to injury and quite frankly would hamper his pitching effectiveness.

..and before anyone goes "but that's how they did it in ye olde days", stop. It was a different game then, and even Babe Ruth was made to stop pitching when the Yankees realized how much more valuable he was as a hitter.
 
KingKauff
2022-11-18 9:16:50 AM  

Last Man on Earth: /Just glad Harris got NL RoY


And the Stache came in second.
 
Super Chronic
2022-11-18 9:22:57 AM  
It was an interesting race for sure. Judge wins by WAR, by a pretty significant margin. You can argue, though, that WAR doesn't account for the roster flexibility you get from a 2-in-1 guy like Ohtani. One extra bench bat or relief arm in the right spot can give you some extra wins that will never show up in Ohtani's stats.

Judging from the comments I've seen on social media, I appear to be the only person who acknowledges it was a close call. Lots of "if you don't believe [X] deserves it then you just don't understand baseball." (But at least we can all agree that Astro fans, who are personally offended if their guys don't win every award from MVP to ROY, suck.)

In the end I would have voted for Judge, probably.
 
Thank You Black Jesus! [BareFark]
2022-11-18 10:15:14 AM  
Peña got robbed as did Gonsolin
 
johnny_vegas [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 10:20:04 AM  

Thank You Black Jesus!: Peña got robbed as did Gonsolin


Framber Valdez got robbed of the Cy Young.  He out performed Verlander in the postseason
 
virulent_loser [BareFark]
2022-11-18 10:59:58 AM  
neither is a surprise at all, well done to both beasts. Ohtani will continue to be an interesting wrinkle every time he has a good year.
 
Mangoose [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 11:45:48 AM  

Dafatone: Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.

Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.


Ohtani had a Cy young caliber year and an MVP candidate year. Strength of batting alone he doesn't win. For sure. Strength of pitching he doesn't win, for sure. Neither independently give him a win here. Now what does that extra roster spot do? Let's add in the ability to field another player. Take the averages of Angels hiatters and then add that because that's the value he creates. Or add the averages of the pitchers. Where does he stand now? I honestly don't know. Haven't really looked at what that would mean for him or his team.

This isn't a "ooo shiny". It's the reality of what he contributes to any MLB roster that he's on. That's what I don't think people are recognizing. It sells his contribution short because it rest on the laurels of how metrics rate all the other players that aren't able to do what he does.
 
Dafatone [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 12:00:38 PM  

Mangoose: Dafatone: Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.

Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.

Ohtani had a Cy young caliber year and an MVP candidate year. Strength of batting alone he doesn't win. For sure. Strength of pitching he doesn't win, for sure. Neither independently give him a win here. Now what does that extra roster spot do? Let's add in the ability to field another player. Take the averages of Angels hiatters and then add that because that's the value he creates. Or add the averages of the pitchers. Where does he stand now? I honestly don't know. Haven't really looked at what that would mean for him or his team.

This isn't a "ooo shiny". It's the reality of what he contributes to any MLB roster that he's on. That's what I don't think people are recognizing. It sells his contribution short because it rest on the laurels of how metrics rate all the other players that aren't able to do what he does.


He had a great pitching year, but he was noticeably behind the three guys who finished ahead of him. And his offensive year wasn't any better than "very good."

Again, what you're saying is that what Ohtani does is so unique that he HAS to win the MVP every year that he does it, regardless of what anyone else does. And that's silly. Judge had the best offensive season anyone's had in almost 20 years and one of the top five or ten offensive seasons since like the 60s. And he played decent defense at a premium position.

If Ohtani were in the NL, he wins unanimously. But he's in the AL, and Judge had a monster year.

Lots of people have thought about the value of the roster spot saved by Ohtani. Here's one example: https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/68403/baseball-therapy-the-war-over-ohtanis-value/

The ultimate answer is that the last spot on a roster is rarely a particularly valuable player, so adding one extra roster spot (which is overselling Ohtani's flexibility a little) doesn't add a ton.

Judge had a better year than pitching Ohtani and hitting Ohtani combined. So he should win the MVP.
 
Dafatone [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 12:01:30 PM  

Mangoose: Dafatone: Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.

Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.

Ohtani had a Cy young caliber year and an MVP candidate year. Strength of batting alone he doesn't win. For sure. Strength of pitching he doesn't win, for sure. Neither independently give him a win here. Now what does that extra roster spot do? Let's add in the ability to field another player. Take the averages of Angels hiatters and then add that because that's the value he creates. Or add the averages of the pitchers. Where does he stand now? I honestly don't know. Haven't really looked at what that would mean for him or his team.

This isn't a "ooo shiny". It's the reality of what he contributes to any MLB roster that he's on. That's what I don't think people are recognizing. It sells his contribution short because it rest on the laurels of how metrics rate all the other players that aren't able to do what he does.


Just to follow up, opening up another roster spot doesn't give you an average player. It gives you whoever's up next from your AAA team.
 
Dafatone [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 1:44:26 PM  

KingKauff: Dafatone: Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.

Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.

I hate to say it, but, This.
I've had no problems with the winners this year for the awards. My only issue is that Kyle Wright, who won more games than any other pitcher and lights out most games, came in 10th for Cy Young. I guess wins don't mean anything anymore.


Wins died with Felix Hernandez.
 
Mangoose [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 1:48:04 PM  

Dafatone: Mangoose: Dafatone: Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.

Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.

Ohtani had a Cy young caliber year and an MVP candidate year. Strength of batting alone he doesn't win. For sure. Strength of pitching he doesn't win, for sure. Neither independently give him a win here. Now what does that extra roster spot do? Let's add in the ability to field another player. Take the averages of Angels hiatters and then add that because that's the value he creates. Or add the averages of the pitchers. Where does he stand now? I honestly don't know. Haven't really looked at what that would mean for him or his team.

This isn't a "ooo shiny". It's the reality of what he contributes to any MLB roster that he's on. That's what I don't think people are recognizing. It sells his contribution short because it rest on the laurels of how metrics rate all the other players that aren't able to do what he does.

He had a great pitching year, but he was noticeably behind the three guys who finished ahead of him. And his offensive year wasn't any better than "very good."

Again, what you're saying is ...


See, I disagree with the idea that the additional roster spot is only worth a meaningless AAA player, or the lowest player on the team. I also accept that it certainly isn't the least fair way to judge. What if you have a Julio Rodriguez coming up. Does that mean the value of the additional spot is greater?
 
Dafatone [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 2:02:36 PM  

Mangoose: Dafatone: Mangoose: Dafatone: Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.

Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.

Ohtani had a Cy young caliber year and an MVP candidate year. Strength of batting alone he doesn't win. For sure. Strength of pitching he doesn't win, for sure. Neither independently give him a win here. Now what does that extra roster spot do? Let's add in the ability to field another player. Take the averages of Angels hiatters and then add that because that's the value he creates. Or add the averages of the pitchers. Where does he stand now? I honestly don't know. Haven't really looked at what that would mean for him or his team.

This isn't a "ooo shiny". It's the reality of what he contributes to any MLB roster that he's on. That's what I don't think people are recognizing. It sells his contribution short because it rest on the laurels of how metrics rate all the other players that aren't able to do what he does.

He had a great pitching year, but he was noticeably behind the three guys who finished ahead of him. And his offensive year wasn't any better than "very good."

Again, what you're saying is ...

See, I disagree with the idea that the additional roster spot is only worth a meaningless AAA player, or the lowest player on the team. I also accept that it certainly isn't the least fair way to judge. What if you have a Julio Rodriguez coming up. Does that mean the value of the additional spot is greater?


If the team were run well, the hypothetical Julio would be up already and the 26th man would be worse than the 25 already on the roster.

But this is the Angels, so forget about running the team well.
 
Stud Gerbil
2022-11-18 2:14:03 PM  
there are people who believe that Ohtani did more to help his team than Judge did. Fortunately, only one or two have MVP votes.
 
Dafatone [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 2:41:25 PM  

Stud Gerbil: there are people who believe that Ohtani did more to help his team than Judge did. Fortunately, only one or two have MVP votes.


I mean, Ohtani did more to help his team, the Angels, than Judge did to help the Angels.
 
Mangoose [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 3:43:30 PM  

Dafatone: Mangoose: Dafatone: Mangoose: Dafatone: Mangoose: Aaron Judge had an historic year. Ohtani had two in one.

Just goes to show that baseball hasn't modernized it's thinking quite as much as it likes to pretend.

Judge was better.

Ohtani had a great pitching year and a very good offensive year.

Judge had the single best offensive year since Peak Bonds. While playing a decent center field.

Advanced metrics, traditional stats, whatever you like, Judge wins. He wins in fWAR and bWAR. He wins in counting stats and black ink. Dude led all of MLB in runs, hr, rbi, slg, and obp. If you want to get even more traditional, he was only 5 points off from leading the AL in batting average and winning a triple crown.

Ohtani had a cooler season. But MVP should be based on which player was better. And Judge was better than both halves of Ohtani put together. Ohtani only wins if the conclusion is that he must win all MVPs because of how unique he is, with no regard to how players actually perform.

Ohtani had a Cy young caliber year and an MVP candidate year. Strength of batting alone he doesn't win. For sure. Strength of pitching he doesn't win, for sure. Neither independently give him a win here. Now what does that extra roster spot do? Let's add in the ability to field another player. Take the averages of Angels hiatters and then add that because that's the value he creates. Or add the averages of the pitchers. Where does he stand now? I honestly don't know. Haven't really looked at what that would mean for him or his team.

This isn't a "ooo shiny". It's the reality of what he contributes to any MLB roster that he's on. That's what I don't think people are recognizing. It sells his contribution short because it rest on the laurels of how metrics rate all the other players that aren't able to do what he does.

He had a great pitching year, but he was noticeably behind the three guys who finished ahead of him. And his offensive year wasn't any better than "very good."

Again, wh ...


Around the time that Carew said he was trying to get involved with the Angels org on some level but he was turned down I had the response "Imagine having a guy like Rod Carew wanting to help you out and being all "nah, we're fine the way we are". It's like finding out how boxed out Hernandez was with the Mets under the Wilpons after Cohen took over.

If a player is seen coming, yeah, sure. But look how many players seemingly come out of left field to actually produce. deGrom wasn't a top prospect for us. The guys who were aren't anywhere near that level if they're still around. It's not uncommon to have a player standout coming in to the league. Staying a standout is something else. The reality is they couldn't ignore him putting it together last year. They could this year. I get that he's the Angels and they're going to stay on the bottom until Moreno is forced out. I get the Yankees are the Yankees and they made the playoffs while the Angels did what the Angels do.

I don't know how rational I'm being when it comes to this, but I genuinely feel that when we look back, there's a chance that we see the game differently because of Ohtani.
 
puffy999 [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 5:14:53 PM  
The Yankees were still a playoff team without Judge. Don't win the East, but they're comfortably in the Wild Card.

The Angels are the worst team in baseball without Ohtani. And quote honestly would probably be up for consideration as the worst franchise in baseball without Ohtani and Trout.
 
puffy999 [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 5:16:50 PM  
But I have no qualms with this. The arguments FOR Judge are legit.

The arguments I see in this thread AGAINST Ohtani are ridiculous, though.
 
Dafatone [TotalFark]
2022-11-18 5:17:00 PM  

puffy999: The Yankees were still a playoff team without Judge. Don't win the East, but they're comfortably in the Wild Card.

The Angels are the worst team in baseball without Ohtani. And quote honestly would probably be up for consideration as the worst franchise in baseball without Ohtani and Trout.


Have you seen the lineup the Yankees were rolling out in August and September? I'm honestly not sure they make the playoffs without Judge. They probably do given that the next team out was the 83-79 Orioles, but good lord did Judge carry them.
 
The Bestest
2022-11-18 5:26:28 PM  

puffy999: But I have no qualms with this. The arguments FOR Judge are legit.

The arguments I see in this thread AGAINST Ohtani are ridiculous, though.


I'm not really seeing any arguments -against- Ohtani per se. He absolutely had an MVP caliber year, and in any league that does not contain 2022 Aaron Judge, he wins it unanimously.

The question is purely "Is 2022 Shohei Ohtani > 2022 Aaron Judge?", and that answer is no.

That's not to take anything away from Ohtani. 2022 Ohtani IS > any previous year Aaron Judge. Hell, 2022 Ohtani > 2021 Ohtani, when he DID win MVP.. that's just how insane a year Judge had.
 
Thank You Black Jesus! [BareFark]
2022-11-18 7:19:52 PM  
hoo lawd imagine if Ohtani was a dodger
 
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