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(Politico)   Old and busted: Mexico will pay for the wall. New hotness: China will pay for climate change   (politico.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Developing country, Developed country, United Nations, Cyprus, United Kingdom, Human Development Index, Republic of China, Japan  
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1534 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Nov 2022 at 6:30 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



45 Comments     (+0 »)
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2022-11-07 3:28:31 AM  
I've read multiple pieces on this issue and it's clear the Chinese position is, "other countries polluted for a century building their capitalism so now we get to do the same."
 
2022-11-07 6:37:26 AM  

edmo: I've read multiple pieces on this issue and it's clear the Chinese position is, "other countries polluted for a century building their capitalism so now we get to do the same."


Kinda one of those "cutting off your nose" things.
 
2022-11-07 6:46:37 AM  

edmo: I've read multiple pieces on this issue and it's clear the Chinese position is, "other countries polluted for a century building their capitalism so now we get to do the same."


Well when one's pretend president is Winnie the Pooh, theyll wind up the economic foresight of a third grade schoolyard bully
 
2022-11-07 6:48:14 AM  
They wouldn't be the first to take that angle. Mexico still uses R12 and R22, both of which were banned in developed countries in the mid-'90s. There are several countries still using DDT even with its known problems because it's cheap and effective, long term consequences be damned. They can sort of be forgiven because they're still third world in many cases and have been, and often still are, repeatedly exploited by wealthier countries.

However China's really milking it. They're now arguably one of the most advanced economies, certainly in the top 1/4 of countries at least in terms of economic output, and they're still trying to pull the "poor put-upon and downtrodden China! We get to steal and pollute ALL THE THINGS because we got a late start on the mindless capitalism-go-round that is the global economy, and whitey was MEAN TO US 100 years ago, so everything we do is totes cool because you owe us" act.

fark the CCP.
 
2022-11-07 6:57:48 AM  
China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

Or ... hear me out, we can accept the inevitability of climate change and work on relocating those at risk?
 
2022-11-07 6:58:40 AM  
The only thing they're going to pay in is a completely unlivable environmental situation. Just like everyone else.
 
2022-11-07 7:02:01 AM  
I'm sure they'll get right on that.
 
2022-11-07 7:16:26 AM  
*Zchynuh
 
2022-11-07 7:20:48 AM  

Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita


Actually, it's Qatar.

https://graphics.reuters.com/CLIMATE-UN/EMISSIONS/jnvwexaryvw/
 
2022-11-07 7:23:56 AM  

Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

Or ... hear me out, we can accept the inevitability of climate change and work on relocating those at risk?


I think we're actually low teens, not first. It's gone down since the 90s with fracking, and natural gas.
 
2022-11-07 7:26:11 AM  
Chinas actions on climate change, or lack there of, is indefensible... that said, the US is hardly in a position to scold anyone given the fact we still have a large portion of our government that campaigns on the belief it doesn't exist.
 
Xai
2022-11-07 7:28:39 AM  
China produces roughly 5x fewer emissions per person than us citizens do.

That's a fact.
 
2022-11-07 7:29:13 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-11-07 7:29:30 AM  
Well, China already paid for their wall so...
 
2022-11-07 7:29:52 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita

Actually, it's Qatar.

https://graphics.reuters.com/CLIMATE-UN/EMISSIONS/jnvwexaryvw/


Stop bothering people with facts.
 
2022-11-07 7:35:26 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: edmo: I've read multiple pieces on this issue and it's clear the Chinese position is, "other countries polluted for a century building their capitalism so now we get to do the same."

Kinda one of those "cutting off your nose" things.


They kind of have a point, don't they? The 30'ish years they've been a true industrial power didn't cause this mess.
 
2022-11-07 7:37:03 AM  
It'll ultimately be like the Great Pacific Garbage Patch- It's not the responsibility of any one country, so no one country feels responsible for it.
 
2022-11-07 7:41:11 AM  
The US was the first great oil power, and developed fossil fuels and industry more than anyone else, and still has one of the highest per capita footprints. The historical emissions from the US are a significant part of why we have such a big problem and the current fracking and use of natural gas for every farking thing is making things worse faster than ever.

I don't know, who is to blame?

China has high emissions because they have literally a billion people and are copying the same industrial system that exists in the Europe and the US, which is absolutely firmly rooted in fossil fuels and materials (don't forget all the asphalt and plastic and chemicals). And that system was very disproportionately built by the US.

But rather than trying to find who to blame or arguing about who pays - it really doesn't matter two cents or yuan who is at fault, and it's not something that can be fixed by playing a fine - rather than wasting air arguing about this shiat, which won't save a single life or prevent one iota of damage...

How about we start FIXING it? Aggressively. As fast as possible. Not "maybe by 2050". Not "you guys but not us". The poor countries would be farking idiots to go deep into fossil fuels if they can leapfrog to an electric/renewable system. The rich countries have the institutions and industry to develop that electric/renewable system, which already has pieces in place but suffers from issues all the same.

Rather than playing this dumb game of words, do some fixing.
 
2022-11-07 7:44:55 AM  

adamatari: The US was the first great oil power, and developed fossil fuels and industry more than anyone else, and still has one of the highest per capita footprints. The historical emissions from the US are a significant part of why we have such a big problem and the current fracking and use of natural gas for every farking thing is making things worse faster than ever.

I don't know, who is to blame?

China has high emissions because they have literally a billion people and are copying the same industrial system that exists in the Europe and the US, which is absolutely firmly rooted in fossil fuels and materials (don't forget all the asphalt and plastic and chemicals). And that system was very disproportionately built by the US.

But rather than trying to find who to blame or arguing about who pays - it really doesn't matter two cents or yuan who is at fault, and it's not something that can be fixed by playing a fine - rather than wasting air arguing about this shiat, which won't save a single life or prevent one iota of damage...

How about we start FIXING it? Aggressively. As fast as possible. Not "maybe by 2050". Not "you guys but not us". The poor countries would be farking idiots to go deep into fossil fuels if they can leapfrog to an electric/renewable system. The rich countries have the institutions and industry to develop that electric/renewable system, which already has pieces in place but suffers from issues all the same.

Rather than playing this dumb game of words, do some fixing.


Main problem is that it can't be fixed by a solitary actor
 
2022-11-07 7:44:56 AM  

freidog: Well, China already paid for their wall so...


It's taller than our non-existant wall would be too. It varies based on the terrain but it's  like 25 feet in some places.
 
2022-11-07 7:48:22 AM  

Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

Entirely?  No, of course not...just for their share.

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

No longer accurate; China took that dubious honor from us years ago.
 
2022-11-07 7:49:37 AM  

PIP_the_TROLL: ArcadianRefugee: edmo: I've read multiple pieces on this issue and it's clear the Chinese position is, "other countries polluted for a century building their capitalism so now we get to do the same."

Kinda one of those "cutting off your nose" things.

They kind of have a point, don't they? The 30'ish years they've been a true industrial power didn't cause this mess.


They do, but they're still squarely in the "you're not helping" camp.

As is my country, America.

/Costa Rica is about the only place making headway, afaik.
 
2022-11-07 7:50:52 AM  

alex10294: Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

Or ... hear me out, we can accept the inevitability of climate change and work on relocating those at risk?

I think we're actually low teens, not first. It's gone down since the 90s with fracking, and natural gas.


Ah good to know. Poster above said it was Qatar now. Still, it's not like we're doing as much as we could to quench our carbon thirst, though, at least we're doing something now.

Carbon taxes sound like a nice compromise that everyone runs away from. Build in the externalities on the price and suddenly the will of the market decides which carbon heavy products are worth the extra costs.
 
2022-11-07 7:51:13 AM  

adamatari: How about we start FIXING it?


We'll start, just as soon as we can figure out how to make money in the process.

The Dilemma of the Commons may be one of the Great Filters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter#The_Great_Filter
 
2022-11-07 7:53:34 AM  

PunGent: Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

Entirely?  No, of course not...just for their share.

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

No longer accurate; China took that dubious honor from us years ago.


Chinas total emissions are, indeed, higher than the US, but they have 5x the population, so that's not entirely surprising.

What *is* surprising is that on a per capita basis, they pollute nearly 80% less than we do. Which is to say that if the population of China lived like the US, China would be polluting five times as much as they currently do.
 
2022-11-07 8:05:55 AM  

Xai: China produces roughly 5x fewer emissions per person than us citizens do.

That's a fact.


And that is a stupid defense.  That's a fact.

There are 2 people shooting at you from a car. There are 5 people shooting at you from a bus.  But there are 50 people on the bus so that makes it less of a threat proportionally. Worry about the car and let the bus take care of itself.
 
2022-11-07 8:05:59 AM  

Mugato: freidog: Well, China already paid for their wall so...

It's taller than our non-existant wall would be too. It varies based on the terrain but it's  like 25 feet in some places.


When my very conservative friends were ready to "Build the wall! Make Mexico pay!", I would remind them that I, too, am a capitalist.

If the wall was 20' high, I was going to start a chain of stores along the southern border called "Get Over It" that specialized in 25' ladders.

They didn't have a sense of humor about this at the time. Unfortunately.
 
2022-11-07 8:24:51 AM  

qorkfiend: Main problem is that it can't be fixed by a solitary actor


Everybody knows this. Everyone has to participate.

If there is even a slight chance we could make it work, the entire world has to work towards it. And frustratingly, we have technology that can make it work - yes, there are serious problems, yes, embedded emissions are an issue, but you know, you can smelt steel with electricity. It works on itself.

I know we can't ignore questions of justice but it seems to me a lot of this is about political gotchas and not how to fix real issues.
 
2022-11-07 8:31:03 AM  
They just need to find some poor country willing to poison their environment and population in order to pull themselves out of third world status and offshore their worst manufacturing jobs to them... problem solved.
 
2022-11-07 8:32:35 AM  

StanleyPuff: They didn't have a sense of humor about this at the time. Unfortunately.


Conservatives don't have a sense of humor and when they try it's usually cringe-worthy.
 
2022-11-07 9:02:47 AM  

Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

Or ... hear me out, we can accept the inevitability of climate change and work on relocating those at risk?


But what if we go to all the trouble of building a better world, and Global Warming turns out to be a hoax?
 
2022-11-07 9:05:41 AM  

sensitive yet dangerous: fark the CCP.


statcdn.fandango.comView Full Size
 
2022-11-07 9:14:17 AM  

jso2897: Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

Or ... hear me out, we can accept the inevitability of climate change and work on relocating those at risk?

But what if we go to all the trouble of building a better world, and Global Warming turns out to be a hoax?


But, you can't.

That's the issue. We're already past the point of no return. You can scream and cry and pout all you want, but the world isn't putting the carbon genie back into that bottle.

So, now you need to figure out what to do in the face of 7 billion people basically telling you to go fark yourself, because, you may not like to hear it, but majority rules or it will require a fascist system to command compliance.

So, are you a fascist or democratic? Because one has the possibility of maybe lessening the impact while the other will go full steam ahead and I hate to say it, but the majority of the world isn't going to vote to give up the modern comfort they've been waiting centuries to achieve because some baby seals are going to die.

Hell, even the first world is woefully failing at their commitments:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/nations-miss-paris-targets-climate-driven-weather-events-cost-billions

https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2021/sep/15/governments-falling-short-paris-climate-pledges-study

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/3460944-the-paris-agreement-is-failing-we-need-a-new-approach/amp/

https://www.cdp.net/en/articles/investor/g7-firms-failing-paris-agreement

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/15/world/climate-pledges-insufficient-cat-intl/index.html

Wanting to save the planet and actually saving the planet are two VERY different things. You can want all you want but nobody is following and the few who have thrown token agreements to do so are falling so far behind as to be basically worthless.
 
2022-11-07 9:36:01 AM  
The Earth is dying
Youtube Nn8XaZmAR-w
 
2022-11-07 10:05:33 AM  
Yeah, yeah, yeah.  And Russia will pay for invading Ukraine.

/Sure Jan
 
2022-11-07 11:26:05 AM  

lilbjorn: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  And Russia will pay for invading Ukraine.

/Sure Jan


Germany paid for invading Serbia, and we saw how well that worked out.
 
2022-11-07 12:05:56 PM  
Any bets on the odds of India acting unilaterally in the Great Climate Geoengineeringkludging* Wonder?  With everybody else just dragging their feet, India is both one of the countries most effected, and one that has a shoestring budget that has performed some impressive feats (trips to Mars, and a lunar mission that went well with the exception of the lander lithobraking).

My guess is that while the "developed nations" would rather have more meetings and discuss risks, the Indians will just go and do something after they lose a few million to heat stroke.  It won't be the best "we" can do, but it will be what gets done.  On the other hand it might be better to use all those nukes as a threat for other nations to actually get things done, but I think just doing it their selves makes more sense.

/* seriously, there should be no such term as geoengineering
// engineering requires a lot of science we don't have for unknown additions to the climate
/// geokludging should be the correct term
 
2022-11-07 12:31:21 PM  

starsrift: [Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/Nn8XaZmAR-w]


The earth isn't dying. It's going to be fine. The life forms on the earth however...,
 
2022-11-07 1:24:47 PM  
Mexico paying for the wall has been explained so many times, it must be intentional to ignore it at this time.

If we had a wall, less US money would be going back to Mexico. It's really not hard to understand.

But yeah, CCP are thieves and liars.
 
2022-11-07 1:45:25 PM  

Flushing It All Away: PunGent: Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

Entirely?  No, of course not...just for their share.

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

No longer accurate; China took that dubious honor from us years ago.

Chinas total emissions are, indeed, higher than the US, but they have 5x the population, so that's not entirely surprising.

What *is* surprising is that on a per capita basis, they pollute nearly 80% less than we do. Which is to say that if the population of China lived like the US, China would be polluting five times as much as they currently do.


Official numbers look to be about twice as high per capita in the U.S. vs China...15 vs 8...but China 1) cooks their numbers, and 2) still has a lot of rural point-source cooking fires, that are a) hard to measure, and b) horrifically polluting.

They've gone from 3% of global GDP to 30%, just in my lifetime...they're rich enough to stop using coal for everything.  The question is, where do they go from here...and so far, they're building more coal plants.
 
2022-11-07 1:46:59 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: If we had a wall, less US money would be going back to Mexico.


Well, there it is.jpg

People have been subverting walls with ladders and tunnels for thousands of years now.

But that's the level of knowledge I expect from the GOP.
 
2022-11-07 1:58:37 PM  

PunGent: Kangaroo_Ralph: If we had a wall, less US money would be going back to Mexico.

People have been subverting walls with ladders and tunnels for thousands of years now.


Money can't climb ladders, Q.E.D.
 
2022-11-07 1:59:22 PM  

PunGent: Flushing It All Away: PunGent: Flushing It All Away: China is installing more wind and solar than the rest of the world - combined - and we think we should blame them entirely?

Entirely?  No, of course not...just for their share.

The US is - by far - the largest carbon polluter per capita, so I guess we all need to pay a fine for the rest of our lives.

No longer accurate; China took that dubious honor from us years ago.

Chinas total emissions are, indeed, higher than the US, but they have 5x the population, so that's not entirely surprising.

What *is* surprising is that on a per capita basis, they pollute nearly 80% less than we do. Which is to say that if the population of China lived like the US, China would be polluting five times as much as they currently do.

Official numbers look to be about twice as high per capita in the U.S. vs China...15 vs 8...but China 1) cooks their numbers, and 2) still has a lot of rural point-source cooking fires, that are a) hard to measure, and b) horrifically polluting.

They've gone from 3% of global GDP to 30%, just in my lifetime...they're rich enough to stop using coal for everything.  The question is, where do they go from here...and so far, they're building more coal plants.


But, again, they are installing more solar and wind capacity than everyone else on the planet - combined.

It's not like they are doing nothing,
 
2022-11-07 2:06:42 PM  
Good luck with that.
 
2022-11-08 3:37:09 AM  

Flushing It All Away: But, again, they are installing more solar and wind capacity than everyone else on the planet - combined.

It's not like they are doing nothing,



Sure, if only more western countries used slavery to make more solar capacity like China and have its solar manufacturers hoarding materials then the world would be a much better place.
Even if you want to believe China is not cooking their books you're ignoring that the bus of 50 people are not only shooting 5 guns, but bought a ton more guns to shoot and plan to buy even more guns to shoot.  China had more carbon emissions than all developed nations combined and China is currently building over half of the world's new coal-based power plants. The fact is US and Europe CO2 emissions are dropping while China is coughing up a storm.  Focusing on only China's solar and wind development is misleading.
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