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(AOL)   Got long covid at 12 months? You'll probably still have it after 18. Would this be a bad time to remind everyone that a third of all SARS victims remain debilitated by a vast range of maladies over twenty years later?   (aol.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Disease, Symptoms, Hospital, Infection, Completeness, Fatigue, Asymptomatic, Report  
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468 clicks; posted to STEM » on 17 Oct 2022 at 2:50 AM (15 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



28 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-10-16 10:29:16 PM  
That's why I'm paranoid about getting it at all. Flu goes away. Long COVID doesn't.
 
2022-10-16 11:14:54 PM  
Its not the length of your COVID that matters, its the girth.
 
2022-10-16 11:16:29 PM  

syrynxx: That's why I'm paranoid about getting it at all. Flu goes away. Long COVID doesn't.


Exactly. I haven't had it once, let alone three or four times.
 
2022-10-17 4:15:29 AM  
At ten years, 50% of surviving SARS victims were unable to care for themselves.  85% had some sort of permanent disability.  Lots of convertase driven injuries like Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis and age related illness appearing decades early.  Many of these set in after recovery from the acute phase of the illness.

This is what causes problems.  It's hyperactivates the Lectin Pathway of Complement.  You don't need to be a brain genius to see that it is common to SARS, MERS, and Covid:

Fark user imageView Full Size

This is what needs to be said to the charlatans that float the novelty equals severity hoax,even those that function as surrogates for the CDC:
Fark user imageView Full Size


Complement Hyperactivation
has extracellular fluid compartment specific consequences that are noteworthy:

1. Plasma Compartment: Acute Lung Injury (ARDS)

2. Intravascular Compartment: Dysregulation of the ADAMSTS13-VWF axis (sticky platelets)

3. Cerebrospinal Compartment: Amyloidogenesis and Complement Neoantigen deposition. (Dementia and Brain Bleeds)

There's more to Covid then that, but those are the biggies.  Complement also plays important rolls in metabolism, cellular metabolism, and homeostasis.  This is why Covid kills cells without ever challenging them directly--the abundance of activated Complement components accelerated cellular metabolism until the cells just burn right out.  That's going to be a real issue for those that are languishing with Long Covid as their illness drags on.

Can we treat it?  In the interim, we can use Complement Inhibitors to grant them a measure of relief.  But we won't unless people gang up on the FDA to force approval.  Complement Inhibitors target the early inflammatory response, and if that's been treated, recipients don't need drugs targeting later stages of the inflammatory process.  In other words, if the FDA were to authorize a Lectin Pathway inhibitor, it would cost the big boys a tremendous amount of money as the market reorganized around the more effective medication.

Examples: Narsoplimab has a 100% survival rate of administered before the onset of Severe Covid.  80% survival rate among patients expected to die within 24 hours.

C1-INH can be used as a poor man's narsoplimab.  It was also 100% effective when given before the need for ventilation.  Were I being treated, I'd want some prophylactic Icatabant with it too, but the trials demonstrated that the extra Icatabant just wasn't needed for most patients, which kinda blows my mind.

Can these be used to provide relief to longhaulers?  Yeah, probably.  It's a question of getting the dosage right.  It's definitely not a cure though... just shifts the immune system to less pathogenic remediation strategy, one the virus is not so adept at exploiting.
 
2022-10-17 4:47:35 AM  

fragMasterFlash: Its not the length of your COVID that matters, its the girth.


Tuna Can COVID is the worst
 
2022-10-17 5:43:40 AM  
Still masking up in public indoor spaces ever since Spring 2020, but it's getting lonely. And that's in California; the big test will be when I spend a week in Texas next month.
 
2022-10-17 5:51:01 AM  

mofa: Still masking up in public indoor spaces ever since Spring 2020, but it's getting lonely. And that's in California; the big test will be when I spend a week in Texas next month.


Good luck. I'm still one of the few in masks on planes, in the airport, etc. Any time I'm in a crowd.

You're right, it's becoming rare, seems like just everyone has given up.
 
2022-10-17 6:27:05 AM  
Long term illnesses are a great cash-cow, medical debt wise.

It's the gift that keeps on giving excellent returns.

People may have given up on covid, but much like the long view on medical debt collection, covid has not thrown in the towel.
 
2022-10-17 7:09:35 AM  
I'm still having some breathing and sleeping problems over 2 years later.
Thank goodness I am part of a study at a university, and they are covering all costs and trying to figure something out.
 
2022-10-17 7:15:11 AM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: In other words, if the FDA were to authorize a Lectin Pathway inhibitor, it would cost the big boys a tremendous amount of money as the market reorganized around the more effective medication.


What are the clinical trial results on those? Because the big boys can make just as much money of off the new treatments as the old. Often more. I worked in the regulatory field for decades and let me tell you I can't remember a time manufacturers were working to suppress a novel treatment. Quite the reverse, actually. Now trying to stop generic versions of their cash cows is an entirely different kettle of fish, but novel drugs == obscene profit beyond what established ones generally provide and they have been lobbying to remove FDA protections so they can get to market sooner, not the reverse.
 
2022-10-17 8:23:39 AM  

mofa: Still masking up in public indoor spaces ever since Spring 2020, but it's getting lonely. And that's in California; the big test will be when I spend a week in Texas next month.


I was at a ski patrol refresher this weekend.  I was the only one masked, out of about 100 people.  People who are supposed to care about helping others.

There had been an email that masks were going to be required (supposedly due to the larger division) but it got dropped on the day of.  Lots of people commented about how they were 'tired' of masking.

... while I'm standing in line and my O2sat drops below 85% a few times.

But there's so way I'm interested in going through another 2.5 years of shiat like that.  I'm still not back to normal but at least the chronic fatigue and brain fog are gone.  And my monitor warns me before things get too bad, so I can do some deep breathing

For those with long covid, or even if you don't as they need controls, this is the NIH study that I'm in: https://recovercovid.org
 
2022-10-17 8:51:31 AM  
Subby is spreading trolling bullshiat right in the headlines now.
 
2022-10-17 9:13:03 AM  
And now there is XBB so we can all have first hand knowledge, eventually.
 
2022-10-17 9:23:52 AM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: At ten years, 50% of surviving SARS victims were unable to care for themselves.  85% had some sort of permanent disability.  Lots of convertase driven injuries like Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis and age related illness appearing decades early.  Many of these set in after recovery from the acute phase of the illness.

This is what causes problems.  It's hyperactivates the Lectin Pathway of Complement.  You don't need to be a brain genius to see that it is common to SARS, MERS, and Covid:

[Fark user image image 425x159]
This is what needs to be said to the charlatans that float the novelty equals severity hoax,even those that function as surrogates for the CDC:
[Fark user image image 425x196]

Complement Hyperactivationhas extracellular fluid compartment specific consequences that are noteworthy:

1. Plasma Compartment: Acute Lung Injury (ARDS)

2. Intravascular Compartment: Dysregulation of the ADAMSTS13-VWF axis (sticky platelets)

3. Cerebrospinal Compartment: Amyloidogenesis and Complement Neoantigen deposition. (Dementia and Brain Bleeds)

There's more to Covid then that, but those are the biggies.  Complement also plays important rolls in metabolism, cellular metabolism, and homeostasis.  This is why Covid kills cells without ever challenging them directly--the abundance of activated Complement components accelerated cellular metabolism until the cells just burn right out.  That's going to be a real issue for those that are languishing with Long Covid as their illness drags on.

Can we treat it?  In the interim, we can use Complement Inhibitors to grant them a measure of relief.  But we won't unless people gang up on the FDA to force approval.  Complement Inhibitors target the early inflammatory response, and if that's been treated, recipients don't need drugs targeting later stages of the inflammatory process.  In other words, if the FDA were to authorize a Lectin Pathway inhibitor, it would cost the big boys a tremendous amount of money as the market reorganized around the more effective medication.

Examples: Narsoplimab has a 100% survival rate of administered before the onset of Severe Covid.  80% survival rate among patients expected to die within 24 hours.

C1-INH can be used as a poor man's narsoplimab.  It was also 100% effective when given before the need for ventilation.  Were I being treated, I'd want some prophylactic Icatabant with it too, but the trials demonstrated that the extra Icatabant just wasn't needed for most patients, which kinda blows my mind.

Can these be used to provide relief to longhaulers?  Yeah, probably.  It's a question of getting the dosage right.  It's definitely not a cure though... just shifts the immune system to less pathogenic remediation strategy, one the virus is not so adept at exploiting.


I occasionally see comments about the lectin pathway and complement system on threads about covid here.  Can you elaborate as to the conspiracy theory going on?
 
2022-10-17 10:03:00 AM  
Suffer life-long and then die for the economy. The economy we're purposefully tanking for the benefit of a few.
 
2022-10-17 10:06:13 AM  
The problem is, the won't be disabled enough to STOP POSTING BULLSHIAT  ANTIVAXX AND TRUMP MEMES ON FACEBOOK.
 
2022-10-17 11:07:21 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-10-17 11:08:56 AM  

Russ1642: Subby is spreading trolling bullshiat right in the headlines now.


Read the room, dude.
 
2022-10-17 11:16:00 AM  

Theaetetus: Russ1642: Subby is spreading trolling bullshiat right in the headlines now.

Read the room, dude.


If everyone in the room is spreading lies then I should just go with it.
 
2022-10-17 11:26:13 AM  

Russ1642: Theaetetus: Russ1642: Subby is spreading trolling bullshiat right in the headlines now.

Read the room, dude.

If everyone in the room is spreading lies then I should just go with it.


You missed the politics tab. This is the science tab, where we discuss reality.
 
2022-10-17 11:31:13 AM  
SARS was 20 years ago? Jesus, I'm old
 
2022-10-17 12:33:50 PM  
It continues to amaze me how people are relaxing in the face of zero real inconvenience.

Wear a mask around groups you don't know when close or indoors.  Get your shot every six months.

Do those two things and long COVID becomes a rather small risk... But nope, too much to ask, and our leaders are afraid to lead and lose votes to the right in the process.

Can't imagine how much worse it is in the US.
 
2022-10-17 1:38:26 PM  

syrynxx: That's why I'm paranoid about getting it at all. Flu goes away. Long COVID doesn't.


This.  It's the lasting damage that matters.  This isn't the flu.

Quantumbunny: Good luck. I'm still one of the few in masks on planes, in the airport, etc. Any time I'm in a crowd.

You're right, it's becoming rare, seems like just everyone has given up.


For me it's anytime I'm indoors around anyone but my wife.  I have been able to simply avoid all outdoor crowds, but I would mask in such a situation if I needed to go there.

CheatCommando: What are the clinical trial results on those? Because the big boys can make just as much money of off the new treatments as the old. Often more. I worked in the regulatory field for decades and let me tell you I can't remember a time manufacturers were working to suppress a novel treatment. Quite the reverse, actually. Now trying to stop generic versions of their cash cows is an entirely different kettle of fish, but novel drugs == obscene profit beyond what established ones generally provide and they have been lobbying to remove FDA protections so they can get to market sooner, not the reverse.


True, although they do ignore novel uses of existing drugs.  There's a likely candidate for a male birth control pill, safety profile is very good but whether it's effective enough is unknown.  (Temporary sterility is a known side effect, but since it's users rarely desire conception the prevalence is unknown.)  Nobody's going to fund it because the patent expired long ago and testing will be a bear because it doesn't stop sperm production.  The sperm look normal but won't fertilize the egg.

Oneiros: I was at a ski patrol refresher this weekend. I was the only one masked, out of about 100 people. People who are supposed to care about helping others.


People who ski are risk-takers.
 
2022-10-17 1:41:19 PM  
Whiskey is the biggest threat to my life, but I still carry a mask when around mouth breathers in a confined area.
 
2022-10-17 2:58:55 PM  

CheatCommando: backhand.slap.of.reason: In other words, if the FDA were to authorize a Lectin Pathway inhibitor, it would cost the big boys a tremendous amount of money as the market reorganized around the more effective medication.

What are the clinical trial results on those? Because the big boys can make just as much money of off the new treatments as the old. Often more. I worked in the regulatory field for decades and let me tell you I can't remember a time manufacturers were working to suppress a novel treatment. Quite the reverse, actually. Now trying to stop generic versions of their cash cows is an entirely different kettle of fish, but novel drugs == obscene profit beyond what established ones generally provide and they have been lobbying to remove FDA protections so they can get to market sooner, not the reverse.


Here's a decent one.  Several other small positive studies reported.  Larger studies are needed.  Could have sworn I saw an N = 665 paper with nearly identical results but can not find it now, so maybe I was mistaken on that.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4078179

C1-INH plus a bradykinnin Inhibitor like Icatabant is SOC for hereditary angioedema.  HAE patients that have been vaccinated against acute HAE via preemptive C1-INH have a very low occurrence of Severe Disease.  HAE patients that have not been vaccinated against acute attacks have some of the highest rates of severe disease observed.

I read somewhere that HAE patients currently spend around $38K on medications over the course of a lifetime.  Elderly HAE patients are not uncommon.  I suppose they could jack the price up on the recombinant C1-INH, but as regular C1-INH can be harvested via plasma donation, there's definitely going to be opportunities for competition if they try to sell it for too much.

Finally, this treatment must be administered before the MASP-2 on N-protein complexes occur.  Won't do a bit of good once they're formed as C1-INH neither denatures the N-protein nor displaces MASP-2.

Antibodies can denature the MASP-2 binding site on the nucleocapsid by binding to other locations along the nucleocapsid, twisting the nucleocapsid to make MASP-2 pop off.  It's an allosteric phenomenon rather than a direct deposition, quite fickle, and at the mercy of antigenic drift which is likely why we don't have monoclonals pressed into service targeting the N-protein.

Here's a paper describing the denaturing process, if you're interested.  IMO one of the most historically important Covid papers ever written.  The whole point of using C1-INH to treat Covid is to prevent the release of the nucleocapsid into the extracellular fluid by making sure that C1-dependent process is never initiated.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-23036-9
 
2022-10-17 5:58:43 PM  
Reminds me of the secondary effects of polio showing up in victims in the 1970s and 1980s.

Mother Nature is a serial killer, and she's a methodical, patient killer.
 
2022-10-18 12:19:18 AM  

Theaetetus: Russ1642: Theaetetus: Russ1642: Subby is spreading trolling bullshiat right in the headlines now.

Read the room, dude.

If everyone in the room is spreading lies then I should just go with it.

You missed the politics tab. This is the science tab, where we discuss reality.


SARS did not leave 1/3 of those infected with longterm debilitating illness
 
2022-10-18 6:38:04 AM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: CheatCommando: backhand.slap.of.reason: In other words, if the FDA were to authorize a Lectin Pathway inhibitor, it would cost the big boys a tremendous amount of money as the market reorganized around the more effective medication.

What are the clinical trial results on those? Because the big boys can make just as much money of off the new treatments as the old. Often more. I worked in the regulatory field for decades and let me tell you I can't remember a time manufacturers were working to suppress a novel treatment. Quite the reverse, actually. Now trying to stop generic versions of their cash cows is an entirely different kettle of fish, but novel drugs == obscene profit beyond what established ones generally provide and they have been lobbying to remove FDA protections so they can get to market sooner, not the reverse.

Here's a decent one.  Several other small positive studies reported.  Larger studies are needed.  Could have sworn I saw an N = 665 paper with nearly identical results but can not find it now, so maybe I was mistaken on that.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4078179

C1-INH plus a bradykinnin Inhibitor like Icatabant is SOC for hereditary angioedema.  HAE patients that have been vaccinated against acute HAE via preemptive C1-INH have a very low occurrence of Severe Disease.  HAE patients that have not been vaccinated against acute attacks have some of the highest rates of severe disease observed.

I read somewhere that HAE patients currently spend around $38K on medications over the course of a lifetime.  Elderly HAE patients are not uncommon.  I suppose they could jack the price up on the recombinant C1-INH, but as regular C1-INH can be harvested via plasma donation, there's definitely going to be opportunities for competition if they try to sell it for too much.

Finally, this treatment must be administered before the MASP-2 on N-protein complexes occur.  Won't do a bit of good once they're formed as C1-INH neither denatures the N-protein nor displaces MASP-2.

Antibodies can denature the MASP-2 binding site on the nucleocapsid by binding to other locations along the nucleocapsid, twisting the nucleocapsid to make MASP-2 pop off.  It's an allosteric phenomenon rather than a direct deposition, quite fickle, and at the mercy of antigenic drift which is likely why we don't have monoclonals pressed into service targeting the N-protein.

Here's a paper describing the denaturing process, if you're interested.  IMO one of the most historically important Covid papers ever written.  The whole point of using C1-INH to treat Covid is to prevent the release of the nucleocapsid into the extracellular fluid by making sure that C1-dependent process is never initiated.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-23036-9


I will admit that most of those articles are somewhat over my head, but what I'm really curious about his safety. Efficacy is usually fairly easy to show: It's the side effects that are the trick. I've seen trials ended because of a single case of liver toxicity.
 
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