Skip to content
Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(NPR)   Is it more important to be able to buy lettuce in the winter, or to have a large city in a desert?   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Interesting, Colorado River, Imperial County, California, Imperial Valley, Irrigation, All-American Canal, Imperial County, irrigation canals, most water  
•       •       •

677 clicks; posted to Business » on 04 Oct 2022 at 7:58 AM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



29 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-10-04 8:13:35 AM  
Charge 'em for it.

It's a seller's market - charge them market rates.  Charge them what I have to pay for water, delivered to my property.

I'm sure they're all about bootstraps - so they'll appreciate the opportunity.

/right?
 
2022-10-04 8:26:10 AM  
Lettuce can be grown indoors with minimal water. Why we are still growing leafy greens on farms is beyond mem
 
2022-10-04 8:32:29 AM  

question_dj: Lettuce can be grown indoors with minimal water. Why we are still growing leafy greens on farms is beyond mem


Hell, you can have a fully automated hydroponic indoor lettuce farm--no bugs, no e coli.
 
2022-10-04 8:36:28 AM  
Doesn't this seem like  the dumbest way to irrigate in the desert?

media.npr.orgView Full Size


The air is insanely dry.  Blasting the water into the air, in lots of tiny drops, then having it settle on the dark surface of the dirt in the sun is just begging to lose as much as possible to evaporation.  They don't have to worry about such things because they don't pay market rates for the water.

They don't pay market rate for the water, of course, because the farms were there first, so I see their point of view.  Cities growing and complaining that the farms are impacting them is like building a subdivision next to a hog farm and having the HOA whine about the smell.
 
2022-10-04 8:39:08 AM  
Can't we just import it from the southern hemisphere?
 
2022-10-04 8:40:20 AM  

question_dj: Lettuce can be grown indoors with minimal water. Why we are still growing leafy greens on farms is beyond mem


Cost.

Simple as that.
 
2022-10-04 8:44:59 AM  
It looked pretty cool at Epcot.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-10-04 8:55:12 AM  

Rapmaster2000: It looked pretty cool at Epcot.
[Fark user image 850x708]


Actually, Disney has really expanded that. Their hydroponics section is pretty impressive. But, again, it's not really cost effective.

But, at the end of the day, cost is not going to matter and we're going to have to embrace doing regional hydroponic farms father than rely on desert farming 2,000 miles from the store. It's going to cost a metric sh*t ton of money and the food produced will be sold at a loss to actually be affordable. Or, they subsidize the hell out of it...

Either way, it's going to be a huge transformation.
 
2022-10-04 9:02:35 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Rapmaster2000: It looked pretty cool at Epcot.
[Fark user image 850x708]

Actually, Disney has really expanded that. Their hydroponics section is pretty impressive. But, again, it's not really cost effective.

But, at the end of the day, cost is not going to matter and we're going to have to embrace doing regional hydroponic farms father than rely on desert farming 2,000 miles from the store. It's going to cost a metric sh*t ton of money and the food produced will be sold at a loss to actually be affordable. Or, they subsidize the hell out of it...

Either way, it's going to be a huge transformation.


That pic is from the long gone Horizons, which had a simulated desert farming portion.  The hydroponics at the Land is still there.
 
2022-10-04 9:12:51 AM  

Rapmaster2000: NewportBarGuy: Rapmaster2000: It looked pretty cool at Epcot.
[Fark user image 850x708]

Actually, Disney has really expanded that. Their hydroponics section is pretty impressive. But, again, it's not really cost effective.

But, at the end of the day, cost is not going to matter and we're going to have to embrace doing regional hydroponic farms father than rely on desert farming 2,000 miles from the store. It's going to cost a metric sh*t ton of money and the food produced will be sold at a loss to actually be affordable. Or, they subsidize the hell out of it...

Either way, it's going to be a huge transformation.

That pic is from the long gone Horizons, which had a simulated desert farming portion.  The hydroponics at the Land is still there.


I meant expanded on that... Not the Giant AT&T ad that Epcot Ball was. They have some boat ride through it or something. Dunno, was years ago.
 
2022-10-04 9:19:04 AM  

NewportBarGuy: question_dj: Lettuce can be grown indoors with minimal water. Why we are still growing leafy greens on farms is beyond mem

Cost.

Simple as that.


If you're in RI, your supermarkets probably have, and you may already be buying, robotically-grown salad mix from these folks:

How We Grow at Little Leaf Farms
Youtube hYnWFQ9aZaE
 
2022-10-04 9:25:04 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Rapmaster2000: NewportBarGuy: Rapmaster2000: It looked pretty cool at Epcot.
[Fark user image 850x708]

Actually, Disney has really expanded that. Their hydroponics section is pretty impressive. But, again, it's not really cost effective.

But, at the end of the day, cost is not going to matter and we're going to have to embrace doing regional hydroponic farms father than rely on desert farming 2,000 miles from the store. It's going to cost a metric sh*t ton of money and the food produced will be sold at a loss to actually be affordable. Or, they subsidize the hell out of it...

Either way, it's going to be a huge transformation.

That pic is from the long gone Horizons, which had a simulated desert farming portion.  The hydroponics at the Land is still there.

I meant expanded on that... Not the Giant AT&T ad that Epcot Ball was. They have some boat ride through it or something. Dunno, was years ago.


It was always there.  It's a different ride.  It was The Land by Kraft (now Nestle).  Horizons was a GE sponsored dark ride.
 
2022-10-04 9:54:03 AM  

SecondaryControl: Charge 'em for it.

It's a seller's market - charge them market rates.  Charge them what I have to pay for water, delivered to my property.

I'm sure they're all about bootstraps - so they'll appreciate the opportunity.

/right?


All the government has to do is take the rights back by eminent domain.  The hand wringing is silly.  Thanks to Kelo vs New London, the government can take whatever they want for pretty much any reason at the assessed value.  The water in this case is very cheap, and an eminent domain case should be filed on a per gallon or flow unit price only, excluding the future profit or value of the agricultural business.
The foundation of the case is for economic expansion.  The value of the water to support urban growth is far higher than a heavily government subsidized farm business.
 
2022-10-04 9:55:32 AM  
Do farkers actually buy lettuce? I mean besides the few shreds that come with their daily triple cheeseburgers.
 
2022-10-04 9:59:19 AM  

Und Becks: Do farkers actually buy lettuce? I mean besides the few shreds that come with their daily triple cheeseburgers.


I do. My colon doesn't work without ample roughage.
 
hej
2022-10-04 10:02:00 AM  
Lettuce has basically no nutritional value.  So I guess it depends on the city, but the bar is pretty low.
 
2022-10-04 10:05:15 AM  
It's not the cities using the water. It's not even the lettuce using the water. It's alfalfa.

Who's really using up the water in the American West?
Youtube f0gN1x6sVTc
 
2022-10-04 10:16:02 AM  
I live in Phoenix so I'm gonna go with Giant desert citys.
 
2022-10-04 10:25:10 AM  

Izunbacol: Doesn't this seem like  the dumbest way to irrigate in the desert?
[media.npr.org image 850x637]
The air is insanely dry.  Blasting the water into the air, in lots of tiny drops, then having it settle on the dark surface of the dirt in the sun is just begging to lose as much as possible to evaporation.  They don't have to worry about such things because they don't pay market rates for the water.
They don't pay market rate for the water, of course, because the farms were there first, so I see their point of view.  Cities growing and complaining that the farms are impacting them is like building a subdivision next to a hog farm and having the HOA whine about the smell.


It is.  But that's what they started with, back when the pipeline was planted, and the water was infinite, just like everything else on the planet.  That is the cheapest way to irrigate.  Other ways go up in price kind of like putting your electric lines underground.  It's perfectly doable, but we have 100 years of infrastructure that do something else, and they're about as willing to upgrade on their dime as you are willing  to start paying for water by the gallon.  And as I just  heard this morning on the radio, water rights law is 100 years old, and these farkers will die for it.  It's insanely unfair, rewards the already big stakeholders more, and of course, is completely unsustainable.  But it's the LAW, and they like it that way.

They also use a lot of flood irrigation out there, if you can imagine a stupider way to grow trees in the desert, besides growing them at all.  All those almonds and pecans that grow in southern New Mexico are flood-irrigated.  They  have to do it that way because all the salts in the water build up in the soil and will kill trees.  So the only way to outwit the natural soil structure is to flood the hell out of it, and do this every year, frequently, because the salts just keep building up.  The more you use the soil and it doesn't get enough natural irrigation, the more poisons build up ,and there is no way around it except to keep irrigating to a foot deep all around those trees, to wash away the salt one more time.

In 2023, the feds are coming in to make the necessary water cuts to the Colorado River, and it's going to get ugly.  There's no a chance in  hell that they (all these states) are going to agree to cut 50% of their water voluntarily, but that's the line.  Otherwise Hoover Dam will stop working.
 
2022-10-04 10:37:42 AM  

cryinoutloud: Izunbacol: Doesn't this seem like  the dumbest way to irrigate in the desert?
[media.npr.org image 850x637]
The air is insanely dry.  Blasting the water into the air, in lots of tiny drops, then having it settle on the dark surface of the dirt in the sun is just begging to lose as much as possible to evaporation.  They don't have to worry about such things because they don't pay market rates for the water.
They don't pay market rate for the water, of course, because the farms were there first, so I see their point of view.  Cities growing and complaining that the farms are impacting them is like building a subdivision next to a hog farm and having the HOA whine about the smell.

It is.  But that's what they started with, back when the pipeline was planted, and the water was infinite, just like everything else on the planet.  That is the cheapest way to irrigate.  Other ways go up in price kind of like putting your electric lines underground.  It's perfectly doable, but we have 100 years of infrastructure that do something else, and they're about as willing to upgrade on their dime as you are willing  to start paying for water by the gallon.  And as I just  heard this morning on the radio, water rights law is 100 years old, and these farkers will die for it.  It's insanely unfair, rewards the already big stakeholders more, and of course, is completely unsustainable.  But it's the LAW, and they like it that way.

They also use a lot of flood irrigation out there, if you can imagine a stupider way to grow trees in the desert, besides growing them at all.  All those almonds and pecans that grow in southern New Mexico are flood-irrigated.  They  have to do it that way because all the salts in the water build up in the soil and will kill trees.  So the only way to outwit the natural soil structure is to flood the hell out of it, and do this every year, frequently, because the salts just keep building up.  The more you use the soil and it doesn't get enough natural irrigation, the more poisons build up ,and there is no way around it except to keep irrigating to a foot deep all around those trees, to wash away the salt one more time.

In 2023, the feds are coming in to make the necessary water cuts to the Colorado River, and it's going to get ugly.  There's no a chance in  hell that they (all these states) are going to agree to cut 50% of their water voluntarily, but that's the line.  Otherwise Hoover Dam will stop working.


Cattle ranching makes no sense out west either.  Then again, beef is an extremely inefficient means of raising protein.  Like you said, the laws which govern water rights are over a century old, and those folks are determined to keep them as-is rather than searching for equitable solutions to modern problems.  Just like anything else that confronts the hubris of mankind, it will take a cataclysmic event to occur before changes take place.
 
2022-10-04 10:40:46 AM  

cryinoutloud: Izunbacol: Doesn't this seem like  the dumbest way to irrigate in the desert?
[media.npr.org image 850x637]
The air is insanely dry.  Blasting the water into the air, in lots of tiny drops, then having it settle on the dark surface of the dirt in the sun is just begging to lose as much as possible to evaporation.  They don't have to worry about such things because they don't pay market rates for the water.
They don't pay market rate for the water, of course, because the farms were there first, so I see their point of view.  Cities growing and complaining that the farms are impacting them is like building a subdivision next to a hog farm and having the HOA whine about the smell.

It is.  But that's what they started with, back when the pipeline was planted, and the water was infinite, just like everything else on the planet.  That is the cheapest way to irrigate.  Other ways go up in price kind of like putting your electric lines underground.  It's perfectly doable, but we have 100 years of infrastructure that do something else, and they're about as willing to upgrade on their dime as you are willing  to start paying for water by the gallon.  And as I just  heard this morning on the radio, water rights law is 100 years old, and these farkers will die for it.  It's insanely unfair, rewards the already big stakeholders more, and of course, is completely unsustainable.  But it's the LAW, and they like it that way.

They also use a lot of flood irrigation out there, if you can imagine a stupider way to grow trees in the desert, besides growing them at all.  All those almonds and pecans that grow in southern New Mexico are flood-irrigated.  They  have to do it that way because all the salts in the water build up in the soil and will kill trees.  So the only way to outwit the natural soil structure is to flood the hell out of it, and do this every year, frequently, because the salts just keep building up.  The more you use the soil and it doesn't get enough natural irrigat ...


just need to wait for the arsenic storms once the great salt lake is gone. then the problem will solve itself.
 
2022-10-04 11:30:40 AM  
Make the mega city citizens live in the pods and eat the bugs.  Save the non bug food for the elites.

Problems solved.
 
2022-10-04 11:45:40 AM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: Cattle ranching makes no sense out west either. Then again, beef is an extremely inefficient means of raising protein. Like you said, the laws which govern water rights are over a century old, and those folks are determined to keep them as-is rather than searching for equitable solutions to modern problems. Just like anything else that confronts the hubris of mankind, it will take a cataclysmic event to occur before changes take place.


Oh fark no.  I am one of the original ranching haters. I don't hate ranchers, except a lot of them are assholes, but I hate their cows.  I'm a biologist, and those things don't belong out here.  Period.  The entire ranching and cowboy culture is a fraud that only remains because of federal subsidies and a lot of freedom on the part of the ranchers.  You don't bat an eye, for instance, when the rancher moves his herd down the main road to another pasture and blocks the road for 45 minutes or an hour.  OK, I can deal with it, I live here.  But still.

and I'm not a meat-eater, so there's that.  We don't need all those cows.  These are not Masai herdsmen who have nothing else, and follow a few cows around their entire lives.  They have trucks that cost as much as my house, and federal land that is practically free.

It's going to get real interesting out here in the next few years.  I will avoid the water issue, maybe, but there is an awful lot of real estate moving around here.   A lot more homeless people.  And there's going to be a lot more, as westerners are chased out of their homes by wildfires and lack of water.  It's on now.  I've been waiting my entire life for this to start.  And it still takes your breath away.
 
2022-10-04 1:51:19 PM  

hej: Lettuce has basically no nutritional value.  So I guess it depends on the city, but the bar is pretty low.


Low caloric value (which is a reason that indoor farming makes sense) but there's more to nutrition than energy content.
 
hej
2022-10-04 2:28:31 PM  

Ivo Shandor: hej: Lettuce has basically no nutritional value.  So I guess it depends on the city, but the bar is pretty low.

Low caloric value (which is a reason that indoor farming makes sense) but there's more to nutrition than energy content.


I suppose it depends on which variant of lettuce you're talking about.  I'm thinking iceberg, as that's what's most common.
 
2022-10-04 2:48:01 PM  

cryinoutloud: Chief Superintendent Lookout: Cattle ranching makes no sense out west either. Then again, beef is an extremely inefficient means of raising protein. Like you said, the laws which govern water rights are over a century old, and those folks are determined to keep them as-is rather than searching for equitable solutions to modern problems. Just like anything else that confronts the hubris of mankind, it will take a cataclysmic event to occur before changes take place.

Oh fark no.  I am one of the original ranching haters. I don't hate ranchers, except a lot of them are assholes, but I hate their cows.  I'm a biologist, and those things don't belong out here.  Period.  The entire ranching and cowboy culture is a fraud that only remains because of federal subsidies and a lot of freedom on the part of the ranchers.  You don't bat an eye, for instance, when the rancher moves his herd down the main road to another pasture and blocks the road for 45 minutes or an hour.  OK, I can deal with it, I live here.  But still.

and I'm not a meat-eater, so there's that.  We don't need all those cows.  These are not Masai herdsmen who have nothing else, and follow a few cows around their entire lives.  They have trucks that cost as much as my house, and federal land that is practically free.

It's going to get real interesting out here in the next few years.  I will avoid the water issue, maybe, but there is an awful lot of real estate moving around here.   A lot more homeless people.  And there's going to be a lot more, as westerners are chased out of their homes by wildfires and lack of water.  It's on now.  I've been waiting my entire life for this to start.  And it still takes your breath away.


I was almost going to say something about the damage cattle so to the ecology, but there's no way I could do it justice.  Glad you offered some input.
 
2022-10-04 2:59:40 PM  

Northern: excluding the future profit or value of the agricultural business


Courts in California already ruled you can't do that.

Remember the "high speed" train being built in California? The things tied up in court with eminent domain over land seizures also drove the price up much higher. The people thought they could find some (example) pistachio farmer with trees in a field and just say the land is with $100,000 or whatever, and pay them that. The farmers went to court and explained that planting a new tree on new land would take 10-15 years to reach productive maturity and each tree is $50,000 a year in income, so that's $750,000 per tree you have to compensate the farmer for the time it would take a new grove of trees in a new location to get back to full productivity. Find a grove of 100 trees and that's now $7.5 million you have to pay them for ripping out their mature crop to take their land.

For your example of wanting to seize farm land and say you don't have to pay the farmer for future production? Good luck with that.
 
2022-10-04 10:19:02 PM  

mrmopar5287: Northern: excluding the future profit or value of the agricultural business

Courts in California already ruled you can't do that.

Remember the "high speed" train being built in California? The things tied up in court with eminent domain over land seizures also drove the price up much higher. The people thought they could find some (example) pistachio farmer with trees in a field and just say the land is with $100,000 or whatever, and pay them that. The farmers went to court and explained that planting a new tree on new land would take 10-15 years to reach productive maturity and each tree is $50,000 a year in income, so that's $750,000 per tree you have to compensate the farmer for the time it would take a new grove of trees in a new location to get back to full productivity. Find a grove of 100 trees and that's now $7.5 million you have to pay them for ripping out their mature crop to take their land.

For your example of wanting to seize farm land and say you don't have to pay the farmer for future production? Good luck with that.


So in CA the farmer can claim in court that the water rights and their business are one and the same?  Congress has taken securities like stonks and bonds by eminent domain.  Water rights should be no different.
If true, then the majority of people are experiencing a tragedy of the commons, and a handful of farmers will keep using the water inefficiently until it literally dries up and their business fails anyway.
 
2022-10-05 5:44:47 AM  
The biggest hubris is thinking that the water shortage will wait until everyone haggles out a solution. They think they're stronger than nature. Sorry, cotton growers of Arizona, your water's drying up for good whether you're ready or not.
 
Displayed 29 of 29 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking




On Twitter


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.