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(Axios)   The housing market is suck   (axios.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Real estate, Home prices, real estate company, Bottom Line, housing market, Home sellers, Mortgage, big housing crash  
•       •       •

1021 clicks; posted to Business » on 03 Oct 2022 at 8:50 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



46 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-10-03 8:23:06 AM  
All the smug farkers crowing about "waiting for the crash and buying cheap" are pretty quiet now that mortgage rates are up around 7%
 
2022-10-03 8:28:18 AM  
People expecting a big housing crash might not see it happen so fast.

Just elect people who will pass 10x property taxes on unoccupied non-homestrad properties. Magically the market crashes and people can buy some farking homes.
 
2022-10-03 8:31:49 AM  
Well, that's what happens when you flood the economy with trillions in cash and then generate like 20 years of price appreciation in 2 years.

Eventually, the market finds it's equilibrium and there's literally nothing you can do about it.

We have been trying to game the market, all markets, for the past 15 years and now we get to enjoy watching the reset which is going to be 10X more painful than what would happened if we just let them all go as they should have.

You bail out the auto industry... absolutely. The cost there is too severe. You do not make Wall Street whole again like we did. You let them cannibalize each other way more than happened. Then you go in and regulate the sh*t out of who is left. You do not keep interest rates artificially low and completely distort the mortgage and bond markets for a decade. that was idiotic. They ran away like small children when they tried to normalize rates and stock traders threw a fit. "Taper tantrum"

Then you add the addloads of money given out during the pandemic... Yeah, some of it was needed, but not all of that. Most of it was what has led to where we are. The "shutdown" did not last as long as thought and they did not claw anything back. They just injected all that sh*t into all the overheated parts of the markets. Housing/Stocks/Crypto... that is why they all went up as much as they did. That's all. That is the only reason.

And that is why they are all falling at the same time...

Debt... Worldwide we have almost $50 trillion more debt than we did just 10 years ago.

We have all mortgaged today for tomorrow and the bill is now due. There's nothing left to beg borrow or steal.

There is no happy ending here.
 
2022-10-03 8:35:23 AM  
This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).
 
2022-10-03 8:37:15 AM  

koder: Magically the market crashes and people can buy some farking homes.


Problem is, when you have a crash like this... you're going to have 10-15% mortgages and the underwriting standards are going to be insanely harder.

Those who could qualify for houses at 2-5% before prices exploded are not going to be the same people who can qualify at higher rates and higher credit standards.

That's why prices will plummet further, not because of taxes. Banks won't want to lend out money unless you can come to closing with a gigantic pile of cash on hand.
 
2022-10-03 8:40:46 AM  

giantmeteor: This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).


And now that money will be harder to find, you're going to see a lot more pressure for state and local governments to spearhead "affordable housing" and subsidize the builders to make those houses.

Good, yes, but we're essentially going to be backstopping and funding the assholes who made a fortune building and selling luxury real estate to build homes for regular people that will, going on past experience, be built like absolute sh*t and still be unaffordable. You'll also see plenty of them just walk away from projects 1/3 to 1/2 the way through when the subsidies run out and they have to start using their own money, file for bankruptcy and walk away.
 
2022-10-03 8:45:38 AM  

NewportBarGuy: koder: Magically the market crashes and people can buy some farking homes.

Problem is, when you have a crash like this... you're going to have 10-15% mortgages and the underwriting standards are going to be insanely harder.

Those who could qualify for houses at 2-5% before prices exploded are not going to be the same people who can qualify at higher rates and higher credit standards.

That's why prices will plummet further, not because of taxes. Banks won't want to lend out money unless you can come to closing with a gigantic pile of cash on hand.


Right now the problem is prices, and the prices are being driven up by a combination of money laundering and low interest rates.  Rich people (many in foreign lands) see (saw) a property value appreciate at a rate that exceeded inflation with minimal-to-none overhead.  A sure-fire investment.

All that changes when one of several things can happen to make that rate go negative:

* targeted property tax increase (easy to do at the local level, which is why I always suggest it)
* interest rate increase (to incentivize non-housing investments).
* reduced resale demand.

We're seeing the latter two, but those are slower to have an effect unless you supplement them with the former.  It's like using multiple drugs to combat a cancer.
 
2022-10-03 9:00:17 AM  

NewportBarGuy: giantmeteor: This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).

And now that money will be harder to find, you're going to see a lot more pressure for state and local governments to spearhead "affordable housing" and subsidize the builders to make those houses.

Good, yes, but we're essentially going to be backstopping and funding the assholes who made a fortune building and selling luxury real estate to build homes for regular people that will, going on past experience, be built like absolute sh*t and still be unaffordable. You'll also see plenty of them just walk away from projects 1/3 to 1/2 the way through when the subsidies run out and they have to start using their own money, file for bankruptcy and walk away.


Some of those property developers are my clients. They made a killing selling luxury condos and mcmansions, and now a few of them are investing heavily in middle market rental units. Build to rent is a growing trend; it's good for the rich because they get to collect rent from the poors, it's good for the poors because it puts a roof over their head. It's not ideal but everyone wins... well everyone except the people who have been priced out of home ownership and are forced to rent from Scrooge McDuck.
 
2022-10-03 9:03:36 AM  

giantmeteor: NewportBarGuy: giantmeteor: This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).

And now that money will be harder to find, you're going to see a lot more pressure for state and local governments to spearhead "affordable housing" and subsidize the builders to make those houses.

Good, yes, but we're essentially going to be backstopping and funding the assholes who made a fortune building and selling luxury real estate to build homes for regular people that will, going on past experience, be built like absolute sh*t and still be unaffordable. You'll also see plenty of them just walk away from projects 1/3 to 1/2 the way through when the subsidies run out and they have to start using their own money, file for bankruptcy and walk away.

Some of those property developers are my clients. They made a killing selling luxury condos and mcmansions, and now a few of them are investing heavily in middle market rental units. Build to rent is a growing trend; it's good for the rich because they get to collect rent from the poors, it's good for the poors because it puts a roof over their head. It's not ideal but everyone wins... well everyone except the people who have been priced out of home ownership and are forced to rent from Scrooge McDuck.


Absolutely, it's the logical next step. They are not going to just sit back and say "We're all done now." Time to hit the next market. Whole generation of those who will not have the backstop of home equity to borrow against or use as they see fit. That is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way, but that's where we're going to be for at least a good bit here.
 
2022-10-03 9:20:25 AM  
Suck (Pigface)
Youtube 3XdEyeUvwfQ
 
2022-10-03 9:33:51 AM  
It won't happen, but basically every state needs to come up with a plan for middle income housing.

At least in the midwest, theres so much empty land;  you could build tons of subdivisions of smaller, 3 bedroom homes.  Mandate that they should be sold to individuals as primary residences, give (unfortunately, you'd have to make it worth their while) tax breaks to building companies to incentivize building cheaper homes.

I know that cookie cutter subdivisions are boring to look at, but it's still home ownership and we're at the "take what you can get" phase of history;  no one middle class is getting a unique bespoke home.

I don't know.  Just freaking do something. propose something, government.. please. most people don't have the means to just go pick out a house because they love that specific one; They just want a house to call their own.  There's legislation that could be made to make this advantageous to the home building businesses and ultimately good for both the people who live there, & the state as an additional tax base.
 
2022-10-03 9:46:17 AM  

NewportBarGuy: koder: Magically the market crashes and people can buy some farking homes.

Problem is, when you have a crash like this... you're going to have 10-15% mortgages and the underwriting standards are going to be insanely harder.

Those who could qualify for houses at 2-5% before prices exploded are not going to be the same people who can qualify at higher rates and higher credit standards.

That's why prices will plummet further, not because of taxes. Banks won't want to lend out money unless you can come to closing with a gigantic pile of cash on hand.


Banks aren't really in the mortgage business anymore. It's dominated by non-banking lenders (Rocket, Loan Depot, Guaranteed Rate, etc.).
 
2022-10-03 9:49:58 AM  

phedex: It won't happen, but basically every state needs to come up with a plan for middle income housing.

At least in the midwest, theres so much empty land;  you could build tons of subdivisions of smaller, 3 bedroom homes.  Mandate that they should be sold to individuals as primary residences, give (unfortunately, you'd have to make it worth their while) tax breaks to building companies to incentivize building cheaper homes.

I know that cookie cutter subdivisions are boring to look at, but it's still home ownership and we're at the "take what you can get" phase of history;  no one middle class is getting a unique bespoke home.

I don't know.  Just freaking do something. propose something, government.. please. most people don't have the means to just go pick out a house because they love that specific one; They just want a house to call their own.  There's legislation that could be made to make this advantageous to the home building businesses and ultimately good for both the people who live there, & the state as an additional tax base.


The problem is zoning density.  Our zoning is outdated and homeowners, who vote more than non-homeowners, have a vested interest in opposing density.

For example, Dave Chappelle, opposing increased density zoning because the homes will be cookie-cutter.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-10-03 9:54:06 AM  
We signed to build just before the pandemic started. Got lucky. A build in my neighborhood is trying  to build starter homes. No fancy finishes, around 1300 square feet, 3 bed 2 bath homes. Nothing crazy, but they are still north of $300k, not exactly starter territory. Input costs are still absurd.
 
2022-10-03 9:54:20 AM  

NewportBarGuy: You bail out the auto industry... absolutely. The cost there is too severe. You do not make Wall Street whole again like we did.


Had no choice but bail out Wall St.   Wall St has its thumb on a financial dead-man switch.  "If we go, the rest of you are coming with us."   You realize that almost all state pension funds are sunk into Wall St.?  If Wall St collapses no more more retirement checks for any state/county/municipal employees anywhere in the country.   Tell the cops that they are shiat out of luck as far as their pensions are concerned, and stand back and enjoy the psychotic reaction.   This is just the dingle-berry on top of the puke sundae that Wall St has scooped out for Murica.   Wall St. has Murica by the balls and they know it.
 
2022-10-03 10:02:21 AM  
Most of the "low-cost" arguments here are rather amusing, as my place in Sunnyvale, CA was built in the 1950s. 1699 1040 sf 3/2 houses, two floor plans, two utility options (gas/electric, all-electric), one or two car garage. Sold mine in 2004 for $495,000.
 
2022-10-03 10:03:06 AM  

Fissile: NewportBarGuy: You bail out the auto industry... absolutely. The cost there is too severe. You do not make Wall Street whole again like we did.

Had no choice but bail out Wall St.   Wall St has its thumb on a financial dead-man switch.  "If we go, the rest of you are coming with us."   You realize that almost all state pension funds are sunk into Wall St.?  If Wall St collapses no more more retirement checks for any state/county/municipal employees anywhere in the country.   Tell the cops that they are shiat out of luck as far as their pensions are concerned, and stand back and enjoy the psychotic reaction.   This is just the dingle-berry on top of the puke sundae that Wall St has scooped out for Murica.   Wall St. has Murica by the balls and they know it.


I'm fully aware about 2008... about what AIG did, about who intertwined everything was/is... I get that. But we gave them all a free pass. then we kept the free money spigot open for 15 f*cking years.

What did we think would happen?
 
2022-10-03 10:04:25 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Well, that's what happens when you flood the economy with trillions in cash and then generate like 20 years of price appreciation in 2 years.

Eventually, the market finds it's equilibrium and there's literally nothing you can do about it.

We have been trying to game the market, all markets, for the past 15 years and now we get to enjoy watching the reset which is going to be 10X more painful than what would happened if we just let them all go as they should have.

You bail out the auto industry... absolutely. The cost there is too severe. You do not make Wall Street whole again like we did. You let them cannibalize each other way more than happened. Then you go in and regulate the sh*t out of who is left. You do not keep interest rates artificially low and completely distort the mortgage and bond markets for a decade. that was idiotic. They ran away like small children when they tried to normalize rates and stock traders threw a fit. "Taper tantrum"

Then you add the addloads of money given out during the pandemic... Yeah, some of it was needed, but not all of that. Most of it was what has led to where we are. The "shutdown" did not last as long as thought and they did not claw anything back. They just injected all that sh*t into all the overheated parts of the markets. Housing/Stocks/Crypto... that is why they all went up as much as they did. That's all. That is the only reason.

And that is why they are all falling at the same time...

Debt... Worldwide we have almost $50 trillion more debt than we did just 10 years ago.

We have all mortgaged today for tomorrow and the bill is now due. There's nothing left to beg borrow or steal.

There is no happy ending here.


now, who wants ice cream?
 
2022-10-03 10:05:35 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Fissile: NewportBarGuy: You bail out the auto industry... absolutely. The cost there is too severe. You do not make Wall Street whole again like we did.

Had no choice but bail out Wall St.   Wall St has its thumb on a financial dead-man switch.  "If we go, the rest of you are coming with us."   You realize that almost all state pension funds are sunk into Wall St.?  If Wall St collapses no more more retirement checks for any state/county/municipal employees anywhere in the country.   Tell the cops that they are shiat out of luck as far as their pensions are concerned, and stand back and enjoy the psychotic reaction.   This is just the dingle-berry on top of the puke sundae that Wall St has scooped out for Murica.   Wall St. has Murica by the balls and they know it.

I'm fully aware about 2008... about what AIG did, about who intertwined everything was/is... I get that. But we gave them all a free pass. then we kept the free money spigot open for 15 f*cking years.

What did we think would happen?


Same thing, duh.  Muricans are suckers who have very short memories.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  Works every time.
 
2022-10-03 10:18:13 AM  

SpectroBoy: All the smug farkers crowing about "waiting for the crash and buying cheap" are pretty quiet now that mortgage rates are up around 7%


Yeah. They're waiting. That's how you do that.
 
2022-10-03 10:20:23 AM  

phedex: It won't happen, but basically every state needs to come up with a plan for middle income housing.

At least in the midwest, theres so much empty land;  you could build tons of subdivisions of smaller, 3 bedroom homes.  Mandate that they should be sold to individuals as primary residences, give (unfortunately, you'd have to make it worth their while) tax breaks to building companies to incentivize building cheaper homes.

I know that cookie cutter subdivisions are boring to look at, but it's still home ownership and we're at the "take what you can get" phase of history;  no one middle class is getting a unique bespoke home.

I don't know.  Just freaking do something. propose something, government.. please. most people don't have the means to just go pick out a house because they love that specific one; They just want a house to call their own.  There's legislation that could be made to make this advantageous to the home building businesses and ultimately good for both the people who live there, & the state as an additional tax base.


Nope. No public transit.
 
2022-10-03 10:23:23 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Well, that's what happens when you flood the economy with trillions in cash and then generate like 20 years of price appreciation in 2 years.

Eventually, the market finds it's equilibrium and there's literally nothing you can do about it.

We have been trying to game the market, all markets, for the past 15 years and now we get to enjoy watching the reset which is going to be 10X more painful than what would happened if we just let them all go as they should have.

You bail out the auto industry... absolutely. The cost there is too severe. You do not make Wall Street whole again like we did. You let them cannibalize each other way more than happened. Then you go in and regulate the sh*t out of who is left. You do not keep interest rates artificially low and completely distort the mortgage and bond markets for a decade. that was idiotic. They ran away like small children when they tried to normalize rates and stock traders threw a fit. "Taper tantrum"

Then you add the addloads of money given out during the pandemic... Yeah, some of it was needed, but not all of that. Most of it was what has led to where we are. The "shutdown" did not last as long as thought and they did not claw anything back. They just injected all that sh*t into all the overheated parts of the markets. Housing/Stocks/Crypto... that is why they all went up as much as they did. That's all. That is the only reason.

And that is why they are all falling at the same time...

Debt... Worldwide we have almost $50 trillion more debt than we did just 10 years ago.

We have all mortgaged today for tomorrow and the bill is now due. There's nothing left to beg borrow or steal.

There is no happy ending here.


Primary home mortgages - and primary home mortgages only - should not have interest rates above 3%.
 
2022-10-03 10:27:58 AM  

misanthropicsob: NewportBarGuy: Well, that's what happens when you flood the economy with trillions in cash and then generate like 20 years of price appreciation in 2 years.

Eventually, the market finds it's equilibrium and there's literally nothing you can do about it.

We have been trying to game the market, all markets, for the past 15 years and now we get to enjoy watching the reset which is going to be 10X more painful than what would happened if we just let them all go as they should have.

You bail out the auto industry... absolutely. The cost there is too severe. You do not make Wall Street whole again like we did. You let them cannibalize each other way more than happened. Then you go in and regulate the sh*t out of who is left. You do not keep interest rates artificially low and completely distort the mortgage and bond markets for a decade. that was idiotic. They ran away like small children when they tried to normalize rates and stock traders threw a fit. "Taper tantrum"

Then you add the addloads of money given out during the pandemic... Yeah, some of it was needed, but not all of that. Most of it was what has led to where we are. The "shutdown" did not last as long as thought and they did not claw anything back. They just injected all that sh*t into all the overheated parts of the markets. Housing/Stocks/Crypto... that is why they all went up as much as they did. That's all. That is the only reason.

And that is why they are all falling at the same time...

Debt... Worldwide we have almost $50 trillion more debt than we did just 10 years ago.

We have all mortgaged today for tomorrow and the bill is now due. There's nothing left to beg borrow or steal.

There is no happy ending here.

Primary home mortgages - and primary home mortgages only - should not have interest rates above 3%.


And there should be no landlords.  You can't just like, lord land, man.
 
2022-10-03 10:29:33 AM  

ThighsofGlory: SpectroBoy: All the smug farkers crowing about "waiting for the crash and buying cheap" are pretty quiet now that mortgage rates are up around 7%

Yeah. They're waiting. That's how you do that.


c.tenor.comView Full Size
 
2022-10-03 10:30:35 AM  

Rapmaster2000: And there should be no landlords.  You can't just like, lord land, man.



pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
 
2022-10-03 10:30:36 AM  

SpectroBoy: All the smug farkers crowing about "waiting for the crash and buying cheap" are pretty quiet now that mortgage rates are up around 7%


You don't buy why that's making it crash. You hope you get lucky and time it when it is in recovery.
 
2022-10-03 10:38:21 AM  

SpectroBoy: All the smug farkers crowing about "waiting for the crash and buying cheap" are pretty quiet now that mortgage rates are up around 7%


Is there a "bad" real estate market?  As Sun Tzu wrote, every American single family home profit is made or lost before the home is even bought.
 
2022-10-03 10:48:59 AM  

phedex: It won't happen, but basically every state needs to come up with a plan for middle income housing.

At least in the midwest, theres so much empty land;  you could build tons of subdivisions of smaller, 3 bedroom homes.  Mandate that they should be sold to individuals as primary residences, give (unfortunately, you'd have to make it worth their while) tax breaks to building companies to incentivize building cheaper homes.

I know that cookie cutter subdivisions are boring to look at, but it's still home ownership and we're at the "take what you can get" phase of history;  no one middle class is getting a unique bespoke home.

I don't know.  Just freaking do something. propose something, government.. please. most people don't have the means to just go pick out a house because they love that specific one; They just want a house to call their own.  There's legislation that could be made to make this advantageous to the home building businesses and ultimately good for both the people who live there, & the state as an additional tax base.


The Houses that Can't be Built in America - The Missing Middle
Youtube CCOdQsZa15o
 
2022-10-03 10:54:40 AM  

Bootleg: phedex: It won't happen, but basically every state needs to come up with a plan for middle income housing.

At least in the midwest, theres so much empty land;  you could build tons of subdivisions of smaller, 3 bedroom homes.  Mandate that they should be sold to individuals as primary residences, give (unfortunately, you'd have to make it worth their while) tax breaks to building companies to incentivize building cheaper homes.

I know that cookie cutter subdivisions are boring to look at, but it's still home ownership and we're at the "take what you can get" phase of history;  no one middle class is getting a unique bespoke home.

I don't know.  Just freaking do something. propose something, government.. please. most people don't have the means to just go pick out a house because they love that specific one; They just want a house to call their own.  There's legislation that could be made to make this advantageous to the home building businesses and ultimately good for both the people who live there, & the state as an additional tax base.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/CCOdQsZa15o]


I love that guys channel, I remember watching one where he went over the inefficiencies of road building & maintenance in terms of city budgets that was super informative.
 
2022-10-03 11:26:05 AM  
I'm putting in offers on homes now that were bought WAY too hot.

What I'm seeing are places that were bought a few years ago, zero maintenance or upgrades that are being sold for +20-40%. So they bought to rent.

Current owners are flipping, asking for the last several years rent, and a premium for the privilege of buying their problem at 2x their interest rate, and they're wondering why I'm low balling.

The largest mistake we made in recent history is saying that housing is GUARANTEED profit, no matter what. Now people are about to lose and can't fathom why people aren't interested in picking up their loss.
 
2022-10-03 11:45:27 AM  
Well yeah if working stiffs still can't buy one.

A house, or for that matter a job, shouldn't be a life milestone like turning 50 or getting married.
 
2022-10-03 11:45:51 AM  
Rapmaster2000:
For example, Dave Chappelle, opposing increased density zoning because the homes will be cookie-cutter.

[Fark user image 636x382]


Complaining about cookie cutter homes is silly.

1941 - Cookie Cutter:

Fark user imageView Full Size


1908:  Not quite cookie cutter, but almost identical forms.
Fark user imageView Full Size


1947 - Cookie Cutter.

Fark user imageView Full Size


More cookie cutter houses:

Fark user imageView Full Size


The  Painted Ladies, Harlem Brownstones... all cookie cutter.
Fark user imageView Full Size


Funny enough, neighborhoods that don't have historic preservation rules, and started out famously full of "cookie cutter" homes tend to have so many customizations over the years that the homes have character.  Say, Levittown, NY

Fark user imageView Full Size


This is how most neighborhoods start out, because it's the most efficient way to build them.  Years of personalization, additions, remodels, and the growth of trees to break up sight-lines are what make them look unique.  When you don't see them, it's typically an area where people bought land and built bespoke homes, which is out of the realm of starter homes anyway.  If you're rich, sure, have a custom-built Rolls... the rest of us drive Toyotas and Subarus and Volvos and Honda's that look come out of cookie-cutter factory molds.

/Lives in a 60 year old "cookie cutter" home.
//Many of the same basic floor-plan, but there's not a single home in the neighborhood with the same trim, colors, or landscaping.
///But please, tell me how a row of anonymous entry doors on a floor of apartments have so much more character.
 
2022-10-03 12:36:10 PM  
The median home price in San Diego is still around $860k. It really doesn't matter if it falls 5% or 10% when you need $240k income to qualify for a loan.
 
2022-10-03 12:54:18 PM  

phedex: It won't happen, but basically every state needs to come up with a plan for middle income housing.

At least in the midwest, theres so much empty land;  you could build tons of subdivisions of smaller, 3 bedroom homes.  Mandate that they should be sold to individuals as primary residences, give (unfortunately, you'd have to make it worth their while) tax breaks to building companies to incentivize building cheaper homes.

I know that cookie cutter subdivisions are boring to look at, but it's still home ownership and we're at the "take what you can get" phase of history;  no one middle class is getting a unique bespoke home.

I don't know.  Just freaking do something. propose something, government.. please. most people don't have the means to just go pick out a house because they love that specific one; They just want a house to call their own.  There's legislation that could be made to make this advantageous to the home building businesses and ultimately good for both the people who live there, & the state as an additional tax base.


Owning a home is not a right, and urban sprawl is killing our planet. How about we build up instead of out?

I know, crazy talk to those who think home ownership is a birthright (hint: Americans)
 
2022-10-03 1:11:18 PM  
Inventory is still very low.  Prices are stabilizing instead of growing.  We'll see what happens in the next buying season
 
2022-10-03 2:13:02 PM  

slantsix: phedex: It won't happen, but basically every state needs to come up with a plan for middle income housing.

At least in the midwest, theres so much empty land;  you could build tons of subdivisions of smaller, 3 bedroom homes.  Mandate that they should be sold to individuals as primary residences, give (unfortunately, you'd have to make it worth their while) tax breaks to building companies to incentivize building cheaper homes.

I know that cookie cutter subdivisions are boring to look at, but it's still home ownership and we're at the "take what you can get" phase of history;  no one middle class is getting a unique bespoke home.

I don't know.  Just freaking do something. propose something, government.. please. most people don't have the means to just go pick out a house because they love that specific one; They just want a house to call their own.  There's legislation that could be made to make this advantageous to the home building businesses and ultimately good for both the people who live there, & the state as an additional tax base.

Owning a home is not a right, and urban sprawl is killing our planet. How about we build up instead of out?

I know, crazy talk to those who think home ownership is a birthright (hint: Americans)


Having a safe place to live is a right.   You seem to think that people should have to live in glorified sardine cans, though.
 
2022-10-03 3:33:51 PM  

SpectroBoy: All the smug farkers crowing about "waiting for the crash and buying cheap" are pretty quiet now that mortgage rates are up around 7%


Fark user imageView Full Size

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2022-10-03 5:07:46 PM  

giantmeteor: This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).


No...it's the tax structure encouraging buying homes as income property.  That drove prices up like crazy.
 
2022-10-03 5:16:11 PM  

Explodo: giantmeteor: This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).

No...it's the tax structure encouraging buying homes as income property.  That drove prices up like crazy.


What part of the tax code do you see as incentivizing investment in rental real estate? I'm a CPA, and I can think of plenty of things that would be considered disincentives; passive loss limitations, a 27.5 year cost recovery on real property, QBI loss carry forwards, but I'm struggling to identify a single incentive. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me.
 
2022-10-03 5:25:37 PM  

giantmeteor: Explodo: giantmeteor: This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).

No...it's the tax structure encouraging buying homes as income property.  That drove prices up like crazy.

What part of the tax code do you see as incentivizing investment in rental real estate? I'm a CPA, and I can think of plenty of things that would be considered disincentives; passive loss limitations, a 27.5 year cost recovery on real property, QBI loss carry forwards, but I'm struggling to identify a single incentive. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me.


The part that doesn't tax income on rental properties high enough to disincentivize snapping up homes by private investment when the market is down, thereby driving up prices for people actually looking for a home to live in and providing the rent-seeker with a constant source of income above the level of the mortgage that they pay for.  As a CPA, I would expect you know plenty of people that do that.  I know several and I don't know many people.
 
2022-10-03 5:52:07 PM  

SpectroBoy: All the smug farkers crowing about "waiting for the crash and buying cheap" are pretty quiet now that mortgage rates are up around 7%


At 750000 and 3% I can't buy in
At 520 000 and 7, I can
It's the down payment keeping my age group out not the monthly, were already spending more than a mortgage on rent.
Banks predict a 25% drop in house prices in early 2023. I'm farking stoked.
 
2022-10-03 6:01:27 PM  

Explodo: giantmeteor: Explodo: giantmeteor: This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).

No...it's the tax structure encouraging buying homes as income property.  That drove prices up like crazy.

What part of the tax code do you see as incentivizing investment in rental real estate? I'm a CPA, and I can think of plenty of things that would be considered disincentives; passive loss limitations, a 27.5 year cost recovery on real property, QBI loss carry forwards, but I'm struggling to identify a single incentive. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me.

The part that doesn't tax income on rental properties high enough to disincentivize snapping up homes by private investment when the market is down, thereby driving up prices for people actually looking for a home to live in and providing the rent-seeker with a constant source of income above the level of the mortgage that they pay for.  As a CPA, I would expect you know plenty of people that do that.  I know several and I don't know many people.


Rental income is taxed as ordinary income. The real driver behind investment is low interest rates, not anything in the tax code. When capital is cheap, investment rises. The problem is that we made capital easily available to people who already had it, and shut off the valve on the people who really needed it. The need is at the bottom and middle of the market. Unfortunately, new constructions for those markets were practically nil after the last recession and it's still unreasonably difficult to finance new construction for single family homes at the lower and middle market prices.
I see some big money moving into the build to rent phenomenon. But they're the ones with the capital 🤷‍♂
 
2022-10-03 6:14:42 PM  

giantmeteor: Explodo: giantmeteor: Explodo: giantmeteor: This is what happens when you stop building new housing for the the lower and middle markets for a decade and a half. New constructions have tended to be luxury units or high end housing. There is an enormous shortage in affordable housing and in new constructions for real people (non-rich people).

No...it's the tax structure encouraging buying homes as income property.  That drove prices up like crazy.

What part of the tax code do you see as incentivizing investment in rental real estate? I'm a CPA, and I can think of plenty of things that would be considered disincentives; passive loss limitations, a 27.5 year cost recovery on real property, QBI loss carry forwards, but I'm struggling to identify a single incentive. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me.

The part that doesn't tax income on rental properties high enough to disincentivize snapping up homes by private investment when the market is down, thereby driving up prices for people actually looking for a home to live in and providing the rent-seeker with a constant source of income above the level of the mortgage that they pay for.  As a CPA, I would expect you know plenty of people that do that.  I know several and I don't know many people.

Rental income is taxed as ordinary income. The real driver behind investment is low interest rates, not anything in the tax code. When capital is cheap, investment rises. The problem is that we made capital easily available to people who already had it, and shut off the valve on the people who really needed it. The need is at the bottom and middle of the market. Unfortunately, new constructions for those markets were practically nil after the last recession and it's still unreasonably difficult to finance new construction for single family homes at the lower and middle market prices.
I see some big money moving into the build to rent phenomenon. But they're the ones with the capital 🤷‍♂


Yes, I've started seeing new home developments being built with signs posted saying "New homes for rent!"  They're not small houses.  Around here the cost of the land is the primary expense.

So, it's taxed as regular income...why not tax it higher?  Why not tax it to the point where you own extra single-family homes only because you want to for your personal use, not because you can make money exploiting other people doing so?
 
2022-10-03 7:16:44 PM  
The beauty of capitalism is that anyone with capital can invest it however they like. The rental market serves families and people that can't or won't buy a house for one reason or another. The problem isn't the capitalists, the problem is a lack of financing for people looking to build houses on the lower end. What we need isn't a higher tax on rents, but programs that direct financing towards building new housing. The FHA already offers first time homebuyer loans, what would be beneficial would be allowing those loans to go to new constructions.
 
2022-10-03 10:53:45 PM  

giantmeteor: The beauty of capitalism is that anyone with capital can invest it however they like. The rental market serves families and people that can't or won't buy a house for one reason or another. The problem isn't the capitalists, the problem is a lack of financing for people looking to build houses on the lower end. What we need isn't a higher tax on rents, but programs that direct financing towards building new housing. The FHA already offers first time homebuyer loans, what would be beneficial would be allowing those loans to go to new constructions.


Unfettered capitalism is very bad, which is why the government is supposed to protect us from it.
 
2022-10-03 11:39:54 PM  

Explodo: giantmeteor: The beauty of capitalism is that anyone with capital can invest it however they like. The rental market serves families and people that can't or won't buy a house for one reason or another. The problem isn't the capitalists, the problem is a lack of financing for people looking to build houses on the lower end. What we need isn't a higher tax on rents, but programs that direct financing towards building new housing. The FHA already offers first time homebuyer loans, what would be beneficial would be allowing those loans to go to new constructions.

Unfettered capitalism is very bad, which is why the government is supposed to protect us from it.


Hmmm... someone should probably tell them that
 
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